PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Green_Destiny_Sword, Jul 22, 2011.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Consider this if you will. This is not from the RLM review. It's something I realized as soon as I watched AOTC in the theater and posted about it the next day. So what is the major flaw of this movie? In short, by the end of AOTC, the Jedi should have known without a doubt that the Clone War was a fake conflict being engineered by certain elements of the government with the help of the Sith. This could be known through simple deduction and logic. No jedi force abilities need. So the whole story is really like a running plot hole.

    Let's take a brief look at the FACTS:

    Why do the Jedi not suspect something is afoul when the clones being used for the Republic Army were made using Jango Fett, who the Jedi know tried to assassinate Padme and kill Obi Wan (several times!!). That alone should have alerted them to some possible double-dealing or evil lurking. Then they find out the clones were ordered by Sifo-Dyas, a dead jedi, who the Kaminoans think is the Master of all Jedi. Clearly a lie. Couple this with a re-emergence of the Sith and a conspiracy is brewing.

    Here is what the Jedi know at the end of AOTC:

    Jango Fett is the template for the clones.

    Jango Fett is the assassin who tried to kill Padme (the Senator who opposed Military Creation) several times. He also tried to kill Obi Wan.

    Now let's look at all the events that the Jedi know for certain happened in the exact same time period:

    The clones were ordered 10 years ago. Sifo-Dyas, the supposed Jedi who ?ordered? the Clones, was killed 10 years ago and the Jedi know someone used his name to order the clones (since Obi Wan confirmed, Sifo Dyas was already dead by the time the order was made). Count Dooku, who the Jedi know was dabbling in the dark side, left the Jedi Order, 10 years ago. The Sith, the arch-enemy of the Jedi who have not been seen in 1000 years, happened to have re-emerged 10 years ago. And not only have they re-emerged they are directly involved in government conspiracies (see Maul's being in the palace at Naboo during the siege at the end of the PT).

    Also the Jedi know either a Sith Master or apprentice was killed 10 years ago (Darth Maul) thus leaving a job opening in the order of 2 (the same time Dooku left). Palpatine also became chancellor, 10 years ago. Oh and one more thing, the Chosen One just happened to have been discovered 10 years ago.

    Now fast forward to the present. You have Dooku working with the CIS, who have a droid army, that can clearly be used for war. The Senate is debating a Military Creation Act, coincidentally. It just so happens that the Jango fett-based clones are ready at the time of the battle of Geonosis. Is this not enough coincidences to figure that something is terribly wrong with these clones?? They're just here and paid for waiting for the Jedi to take?

    And where are the clones produced?? Kamino. The one system not showing up in the Jedi archives. Only a Jedi could have access to erase them from the system. Come on...it's obviously Dooku!

    The idea that someone in this CIS vs. Republic - clone /droid conflict is playing both sides is all over the place. The clincher is seeing Jango fleeing to Geonosis! Why would he be going here unless if he was working with Dooku? Jango led Obi Wan to Geonosis on purpose so the other Jedi would follow and fall into Dooku?s trap. The Jedi know this by the time the battle starts. How else could Dooku have been so prepared? Dooku had to have known Obi Wan was on the way. Then to top it off, we see Dooku and Jango together in the VIP box. Now we know they are in cahoots which means someone is orchestrating this phony war. Jango even foolishly enters the arena once the conflict starts to try and kill some Jedi.

    At that point AGAIN we see that Dooku is linked to Kamino which means he is on both sides of this fake "war."

    Additionally, any good detective will look at a crime and examine who has benefited from all of this?? In this situation it?s 3 parties: Dooku, Palpatine and the Kaminoans. The investigation starts here.

    Even if that is not enough, Dooku confirms he is a
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree with all of your points, although I was not nearly so bothered by them as you seem to be, because I was still able to enjoy the movie, saw it 10 times in the theater.

    The Jedi were incredibly short-sighted and complacent in many matters. They did not believe that Count Dooku possibly could have ordered the assassination attempt on Padme because he was once a Jedi. Obi-Wan's immediate reaction to Dooku's statement about Sidious was, "I don't believe you." I think he should have taken the information back to the Council and it should have at least been investigated. And they did not question who really ordered that clone army, particularly given that, according to Labyrinth of Evil, Dooku and Sifo-Dyas were close friends. Did they even investigate who killed Sifo-Dyas? They did not seem to know that Dooku did it as his initiation into the Sith. (Also covered in Labyrinth of Evil.)

    It could be considered a gaping plot hole in that the Jedi had to be that naive in order for Palpatine to win and the OT to happen, or it could be a commentary on not becoming complacent, dogmatic and inflexible. The Jedi, sadly, became that way because their way of life and their dogma had worked, the Sith had been "extinct for a millenia." They had no reason to question their own belief system until it was too late. (And I would argue that it was too late for them before AOTC, most of the damage had been done.)
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Congratulations, you win 10 internets.
  4. Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2003
    star 3
    I didn't read all the OP, but Fett is a bounty hunter it makes sense that he may work for Dooku if paid enough money.

    And another flaw in the plot which I didn't see in your post, Padme thinks Dooku wants her dead, the guy wanting to break away from the Republic wants a key Senator who is against the creation of an army to combat the Separatists dead?
  5. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 3
    I agree that this is a plot-hole. Why does Obi-Wan simply refuse to believe Dooku about Sidious controlling the Senate? And later, when discussing it with Yoda, they come to the conclusion that "Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now". So that's it? This seems half-assed on the part of the Jedi. Shroud of the darkside, sure, but I'm not surprised the Jedi were wiped out if that was the only conclusion they came to.
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  6. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Because he wants a war. Both as a Separatist, and a Sith.

    As for the original post, though. Two words: cognitive dissonance.

    Of course it's suspicious that Jango Fett, the mercenary trying to kill Padme at the behest of Count Dooku, is the template for the Clone Army. Of course it's suspicious that this is happening on a planet that was erased from the Jedi Archives, something only a Jedi could've done. Of course it's suspicious that the Army was supposedly ordered by a Jedi Knight who was already dead. These and all the reasons you've pointed out are big red flags, and under normal circumstances the Jedi should be dropping everything to investigate those matters as fully as possible. But they don't. Why?

    Because they have no choice. There's a war on, and somebody needs to fight it. This is the whole point of the movie-- people are willing to look the other way and turn away from logic when the threat of war is upon them. Keep calm, and carry on (another way of saying "Lie back, close your eyes and think of England").

    The Jedi are well aware of the threat of the Separatists, even meeting with Palpatine in a kind of cabinet meeting at the start of the film. They can't fight them in a full war yet, of course, because there's not enough Jedi to do that. But now with an army behind them, it's their duty to protect the Republic by any means necessary, even if those means are suspect. For any number of reasons, the way they accept the Clone Army is a step down for the mighty Jedi. They're knowingly complicit in the creation of human life for the purposes of combat-- wouldn't that be considered inhumane, maybe even a war crime, later on? And they're filled with all kinds of misgivings, by the end, because they know they've started something they can't possibly control. They're making an awful sacrifice to fight for peace, even as it leads to their destruction.

    But again, the key concept for this is cognitive dissonance. As soon as we see the Clone Troopers, we know where this is headed. When we see Jedi Knights fighting alongside Stormtroopers, it's supposed to be a massive WTF moment. Cats and dogs living together-- mass hysteria. Lucas is throwing us a huge curveball just to show how badly all of us cop out and run for cover at the first sign of trouble. And thanks to the huge lingering questions, it's something that works narratively, as well as meta-aesthetically. They've got an army of Boba Fetts, essentially. They've made a big mistake, and it's going to haunt them later on.

    It's the sci-fi equivalent of the panicked girl in a slasher movie who runs up the stairs from the killer instead of going out the front door. The natural reaction is to yell at the screen-- "Don't go up there! He's gonna get you if you go upstairs! Just run out the door! Just go out the-- oh, you're dead, now. Told you!".
  7. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    It is a big coincidence (but what would STAR WARS know about that) but you've got to keep in mind that Jango is a bounty hunter whose allegiance is (presumably) to money. Given the right pay a hunter could fight for either side. Plus it goes back to Clone debate, and the fact that were used out of necessity rather than pure choice.
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  8. Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2003
    star 3
    If Dooku wanted a war as an honest Sep, he'd want to win, and so want Padme alive to hold up the creation/conscription of an army. She'd have no reason to think he wants some fake war where nothing is really at stake.
  9. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    I think the whole Padme issue about thinking Dooku wants her dead goes to show how a non-force user has much better insight on events than the Jedi themselves, showing how much their insight and force abilities have truly diminished.

    And also, I don't think Dooku wanting her dead had as much to do with the Clone army as much as Nute Gunray and the Trade Federation. He was looking for allies to join his movement, and she knew he would want the Trade Federation because of their droid army. Nute Gunray probably wanted her dead because of the events of TPM. So Padme came to the conclusion that Dooku hired a bounty hunter to take her out so that he could have the Trade Federation's support.
  10. Jabba_The_Hutt_123 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2003
    star 3
    Then it would make more sense for her to say Gunray is behind it, that's even what Obi Wan says later despite Nute saying he'll sign nothing before her head is on her desk.

    Gunray is quite capable of hiring a bounty hunter alone, blaming Dooku just because they're allies is ridiculous.
  11. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    A war does not excuse investigating let alone investigating that has largely been done before the war broke out. Jedi can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    In a galaxy full of millions of bounty hunters, how did Count Dooku end up hiring the one who happened to be the template for a secret army created 10 years ago with the one purpose of defending the republic against Count Dooku. You either have to believe that Jango is playing Count Dooku (and the Sith) for fools or else Count Dooku knew exactly what he was doing.

    Setting aside the investigation from Republic side, what about the investigation from the separatist side? How long after the battle of Geonosis did it take for Nute Gunray to see a clonetrooper without his helmet on? When that happened, how do you think the Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, Corporate Alliance, and Banking Clan reacted? The same guy who helped create this mysterious army for the Jedi is also the same guy in a galaxy full of millions of bounty hunters that their fearless leader hired? Did they just accept Dooku's apology right away or did they ask to speak to management (Sidious) and demand a resignation? Seriously. Fear would only keep these guys in line for so long.




    The reason why these investigations didn't continue or begin was simply because Lucas didn't think about it. Couldn't see the forest through the trees and was more concerned about Anakin's turn than the details of parsecs or how Obi-Wan was supposed to escort Jango back to Coruscant.
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I think the issue with Jango Fett is that he's a bounty hunter -- an independent contractor. Obi-Wan is told this on Kamino and by Zam Wessel (it's also not hard to deduce from his actions). Given this fact, a connection can't necessarily be established because there's a shared employment history. Boba Fett, for one, works for both the Empire and Jabba, and yet our heroes never suspect that Jabba's palace might be a trap set by Vader in order to capture Luke. As for the killing of Padme, it's eventually shown to be due to Nute Gunray's personal grudge against her (perhaps even more so than a Separatist conspiracy), so again, the connection between the clones and the Separatists seems tenuous at best using Jango as an example. He's clearly a very skilled fighter, as evidenced by his fight against Obi-Wan, so it's not all that surprising that he would be used as an army template. Furthermore, a bounty hunter is primarily motivated through money, so getting him to concede to being the original donor is relatively easy.

    Actually, there is an alternative to your scenario. You bring up the issue of ten years quite frequently. Yet what happened ten years ago? The Sith were revealed and Qui-Gon was killed. Here's where a possibility arises: Sifo-Dyas, as a leading member of the Jedi Council, is disturbed by the swelling of the Dark Side or perhaps has a vision. He thus decides that with the Dark times coming, the Republic is going to need an army and requisitions one from the Kaminoans. Count Dooku, however, having recently left the Jedi Order ostensibly for political reasons and due to his padawan's death, has secretly joined the Sith and kills Sifo-Dyas in addition to destroying the data on Kamino in the Archives in order to prevent the Jedi from finding out about the army so that they will be defenseless when the time comes. When the Jedi find out about Dooku being a Sith Lord, then, they put two and two together and realize that Dooku erased the data, but they mistakenly believe that he killed Sifo Dyas in order to keep the army hidden, to keep the Jedi weak.

    Obviously, this is not the case. Dooku/Sidious ordered the army, but the Jedi have only pieces of the knowledge and, unlike us, they cannot as readily see what is significant and what is not. But I think the Jedi could very well have been thinking along such lines. Supporting my theory, I think, is the fact that Jango says he was recruited by Tyranus but never says "Lord Tyranus" or "Darth Tyranus" yet at the end of the film, this is how Sidious greets Dooku. The Jedi never make the connection between Tyranus and Dooku though (even by ROTS, they continue to refer to him as the Count), so any direct connections to the Sith are lost.

    Instead, it merely looks like Sifo Dyas had a moment of foresight and had a man called "Tyranus" find a suitable source for an army. The Sith, getting wind of this, then killed the Jedi Master and erased the information. The fact that Dooku left ten years ago, as soon as an opening appeared in the Si
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  13. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The Jedi in ROTS do suspect Chancellor is somehow connected to the Sith. They even make up a fairly reasonable plan to draw the Sith out. But it backfires on them, thanks to the "Chosen One".
  14. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    It's not so much a shared employment history as it is shared employment currently. Jango was not done working for the Kaminoans or whoever hired him to be the template and clearly not done working for Dooku as he flew to him with Obi-Wan in pursuit.

    Plus it's not a connection between the clones and the separatists, it's a connection between the clones and a dark lord of the sith. Nute wanted Padme dead and Dooku hired the template for the clone army out of all of the bounty hunters in the galaxy to do this task.

    As for Boba Fett, if he's looking for Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon for Jabba and then the Empire sends out word that they too are looking for Han Solo and the Falcon, it's not a terrible stretch that the two would overlap. The Empire and Jabba aren't teaming together so much as the Empire is tagging along with an ongoing investigation. Vader is only interested in setting a trap for Luke. Once that is done he'll let Boba do whatever he wants with Captain Solo. Should Luke have suspected a trap at Jabbas palace? Maybe. But then he did send his troops in first to investigate didn't he? Plus given that R2-D2 had Luke's saber the entire time, it's easy to assume Luke sensed what the majority of the danger was regarding the situation. Just like he sensed trouble as they approached Endor.





    That would imply that the Jedi suspect Dooku never once investigated this army that is taking 10 years to grow. Does that sound at all plausible? Wouldn't he want to take over that army or destroy that army during that 10 year gap? The Kaminoans obviously would have a delivery date for this army despite Kamino being erased from the Jedi Archives. So you're saying Dooku does nothing else to thwart this potential massive thorn in his plans? Not only this but he manages to hire the template for an army he knows about by accident when all it would have taken was simple investigating (like Obi-Wan did)
  15. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    I get what you're saying, Green Destiny, but many fail to understand what the last scene with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan implies. After all the revelations in AOTC were brought out in the open, the Jedi knew now that it was time to keep an eye on both the Seperatists and the Senate where before they were only concerned with the CIS. In hindsight, after watching all the Prequels you can understand Yoda's looks of anxiety throughout the films, and Mace Windu's for that matter, and you can almost get a sense that they knew something big was being planned against them and they would be powerless to stop it.


    I do agree with you that they should have explained what they did to investigate these matters, but like someone said before, it would change nothing in the end. but, I would like to see these riddles solved in an Clone Wars arc, nonetheless.;)
  16. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    That doesn't change the fact that she was right and the Jedi were wrong. It makes a lot of sense even from Padme's POV. Dooku is around gathering allies at the same time that an assassination attempt on her life happens. The organization that the main suspect belongs to has very poor relations with the Republic. Also, if he was solely responsible for the assassinations, he would not have waited a decade to do this. Given that the attempt lines up with when Dooku is gathering allies, it would make sense Dooku was behind it to get Gunray's support.

  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Sifo-Dyas was not already dead when the army was ordered. This comes directly from Lucas.

    Obi-Wan "confirmed" nothing of the sort. An impression is not confirmation of itself.

    That is not consistent with what was shown in the film. Jango was visibly upset when Obi-Wan showed up on Kamino, and attempted to defeat him in a way which would have precluded any attempt to track his ship or follow him anywhere. He again tried to kill Kenobi in the asteroid field.

    They "know" no such thing. It would be counterintuitive for them to somehow assume that Dooku created an army to oppose his own troops. Nothing about that scenario makes sense without the crucial fact of Palpatine = Sidious which they do not yet have.

    Now you're simply making things up. The Kaminoans do not think that Sifo-Dyas is the Master of all Jedi.

    That may be the case in the EU, but he says no such thing in the film.
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  18. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    I'll agree that the Syfo-Dias thing was needlessly complicated. Really, it would've been just as good for the Obi-Wan's reaction to be "There's no such Jedi Syfo-Dias!". The conclusion would be the same (and I think that's what the original version went like, right?). At any rate, it's not a major thing. It makes enough sense in the film that Syfo-Dias dies, then there's a Clone Army in his name. Whatever. It doesn't have to make perfect sense. Even The Big Sleep had stuff that the writer admitted was mostly BS.
  19. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    The sad thing about the Prequels is that most (me included) who don't understand some of the things that happened in the movies look for explanations from the fans on these boards, mainly because they can't see the answers in the films. Although Lucas succeeded in many areas in the Prequels, he's failed in some of the storytelling.


    Here's a question. Did the Jedi know Count Dooku's Sith name?
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not really, because then the situation would be identical to the one superimposed upon AOTC by the prequel hate machine: the Jedi are using an army which they know to have been ordered by an impostor, as opposed to an army revealed through investigation to have been ordered by one of their own.
  21. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Jango told Obi-Wan about Tyranus, but I doubt the Jedi knew it was Dooku.
  22. Darthman1992 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2011
    star 1
    Jango said that he was recruited by a man named Tyranus (Mind you he said just Tyranus, nor Darth). The knew Dooku was a Sith Lord by the end of AOTC but they didn't know his Sith name.
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Ah, but don't forget that Jango has a very close tie to the Kaminoans: Boba. They created his son and the two of them do seem to live there (considering they have their own apartment and that they are on a first name basis with Lama Su). I don't know if you can say it's a shared employment currently. It's more that it's a long term process. For example, if the Kaminoans made modifications to Jango's DNA that didn't pan out or had negative consequences, it would be far easier to simply obtain a fresh sample than to try to correct the mistake. For Jango, keeping Boba on Kamino would be convenient, since he's an elite bounty hunter and the planet is outside of the Republic.

    And the connection with the Dark Lord of the Sith is logical when you consider that not many people are likely to be able to go up against a Jedi and win. Yet Jango does just that against Obi-Wan. Look at Zam Wessel -- Obi-Wan takes her out with nary a scratch in the bar. Trying to apprehend Jango took significantly more effort, however.

    Yes, but shouldn't the characters have shown a bit more caution in terms of the Jabba episode? Fett clearly demonstrates that he's fine with working for the Empire and Vader knows that Luke is going to go after Solo. Setting a trap in Jabba's palace would be a perfect opportunity to apprehend Luke, especially since he goes in without his saber, leaving it in R2. The Emperor and Vader don't give up on turning him once ESB is over after all. And when did Luke send in any troops? Sure, he sent Leia and Chewbacca, but they were prisoners and wouldn't have been in the position to relay any information.

    Well how exactly do you propose that Dooku take over the army on Kamino. He's never said to have been a leading member of the Jedi Order, so I doubt he outranked Sifo Dyas. Plus, picking a fight with people who are amoral and specialize in building armies seems like foolishness to me. And I'm not sure that the Kaminoans had a delivery date. It's clear that they expected someone to come
  24. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Bingo. Thanks for typing the post I wasn't going to, but certainly wanted to. Completely spot-on. I have nothing to add.
  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Obi-Wan doesn't know that Dooku is a Sith Lord. In fact, the Jedi never realize this, until Dooku's duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda near the end of the film. I suspect that Obi-Wan and the Jedi had suspected that Dooku and the Separatists were behind the creation of the Clone Army and took possession of it, on the orders of the Senate. And they could get away with this, because as far as the Kaminoans are concerned, it was the Jedi who had ordered the Army.

    And you also have to consider that they don't even know whether Dooku is a Sith master or an apprentice. Don't forget. They were in the dark on whether Darth Maul was an apprentice or master. With Dooku's revelation as a Sith at the end of AOTC, they're now in the dark on whether he was an apprentice or master. In fact, the Order was in the dark about this, until agents for the Order came across evidence that someone within Palpatine's circle has connections to the Sith. The impact of this discovery is felt in the novel, "Labyrinth of Evil" and of course, "Revenge of the Sith".

    You're all viewing this from pre-knowledge of what was going to happen. And because of this, it seems you were expecting the Jedi characters to know as much as you do. And this is why I consider this argument about a major flaw in AOTC to be, well a flaw.
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