PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Green_Destiny_Sword, Jul 22, 2011.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't see what difference it would make. If you're going to impersonate Sifo-Dyas you might as well be anyone, using technology if necessary for the purpose of simulation. In the film the Jedi know that the file was erased by a Jedi. In the EU they believe this to be Dooku. But they do not assume that Dooku ordered the army or that Sifo-Dyas was necessarily dead when the army was ordered. In fact, in EU they find evidence that he was alive when the initial contact with Kamino was made. They specifically say during the film to not assume anything, and it goes directly against this line of dialogue to speculate that they do not practice what they preach and are actually fully committed to the conclusion that the army was ordered by an impostor and Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed.
  2. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    And you are missing an even more important part, at the end of the film the Jedi KNOW that Dooku is a Sith.
    So he is not a political idealist. They know he's been involved in attempted murder and is sowing seeds of distrust and strife and wants to start a war. So as a Sith is at all conciveable that he is trying to create a galatic civil war that will weaken the republic and kill lots of Jedi? I would say yes, the Sith have everything to gain by the republic figthing itself.
    Lots of jedi will die and the republic will be weaker.

    Regards
    Nordom

  3. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    It makes quite a difference. First you have to know the name of this Jedi Master and you would have to know he was dead. Such info MIGHT not be avaliable to outsiders. Second you might need a lightsaber. Third, using what technology to simulate being a Jedi? Are there tech that enables you to do the Jedi mind trick or levitate objects just like that?

    Lastly about "Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan" as Yoda says. And what does Obi-Wan say AFTER he has been told not to assume anything? That Sifo-Dyas was dead BEFORE the army was ordered. So if we apply this "not assuming anything" on the Jedi then Obi-Wan was quite SURE about what he said. And neither Mace nor Yoda question Obi-Wan on his statement about Sifo-Dyas being dead and Mace uses the phrase "whoever" when talking about the person that ordered the clone army. So he seems to accept what Obi-Wan has just told him. After that, the whole thing is just dropped. If what Obi-Wans says is true and we have no reason to ASSUME otherwise then the army WAS ordered by an impostor and the Jedi knows it. So simply using what the film tells us and not assuming anything else, we see that the Jedi are aware that the clone army was ordered under a false name, and illegal as well, and they use it no questions asked.

    Regards
    Nordom

  4. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    And IF that line ahd been IN the movie then this plot would make better sense but it wasn't.
    But, as I've said before, the shooting scrpit made better sense and the Jedi are shown as being more aware of what is going on and talking more about it. They wonder WHO might have ordered the clone army and why. They wonder about who this Tyrannus might be.

    Lastly that line only says that the Kamino people have kept the Jedi's involement a secret, not that they have not contatced the senate about the clone army. In fact the line does suggest that they HAVE talked to other people about the army but have not revealed WHO ordered it. Otherwise the line would be "we have not contacted anyone about the clone army, just as your Master requested."

    Regards
    Nordom

  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Except Obi-Wan didn't say that he assumed anything. He did not say that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered. He said he had an impression, and in a tone of voice that did not seem to imply certainty. You're somehow twisting "do not assume anything" into an assumption that Obi-Wan did precisely the opposite and ignored what he had just heard.

    That makes no sense. If the Kaminoans had talked to the Senate or the Republic about the army before AOTC, the Jedi would most likely have heard about it.

    However, what remains in the film is still consistent with it. The film audience was at least aware of the fact that the Kaminoans for some reason failed to contact the Republic for ten years.
  6. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9


    I never got the impression by the end of the movie that they knew he was a Sith. All I got was that they knew he was a Darksider, but nothing in that dialogue implied to me that they felt Dooku=Sith, only that Dooku=Darksider, and while Sith=Darkside, Darkside does not always equal Sith.
  7. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    The movies only ever have Jedi and Sith, nothing in between. And I think that Lucas himself has said that there is no such thing as Dark Jedi. And in RotS Obi-Wan or Anakin says "Sith Lords are our speciality" when talking about Dooku. Lucas also called Force-lightning a Sith power.
    Plus Dooku is working with the TF, who are know for having been involved with the Sith.
    So in closing all evidence points to the Jedi knowing that Dooku was a Sith.

    Regards
    Nordom
  8. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Actually that is what you are doing, you argue that Obi-Wan is unsure about when Sifo-Dyas died or when the army was ordered and is not sure about anything. The fact that he was TOLD not to assume anything means, if he listens to Yoda, that he would ONLY report on things he KNEW about and not vague ideas or speculation.
    And about how Obi-Wan sounds, he has been told something impossible, that a jedi he knows to be dead, ordered an army AFTER his death. That would make most people think "something is not right here."
    Why is Obi-Wan including that line? Mace and Yoda must surely know that Sifo-Dyas is dead and when he died but they did NOT know about the clone army or when it was ordered. Obi-Wan tells them when it was ordered and by who but then he adds that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered.
    Why would he say this if he had no reason to think that it was correct? He is making a report to Mace and Yoda and he has just been told not to speculate or assume stuff so why include things he is not sure of?



    The line implies that they have spoken about the army but not mentioned that a Jedi ordered it. If the entire existence of the army is kept a secret then it is redundant to mention that Jedi involvement is a secret because that is implicit. It is like saying "Mr Smith lives in the village of Ur but that is kept secret." and "The existence of the village of Ur is kept secret". The former implies that people know about the village of Ur but not that Mr Smith lives there while the later says that people don't even know that the village of Ur even exists.
    So then you do not need to add that Mr Smith living there is a secret because noone even knows about the place.

    Regards
    Nordom
  9. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    ROTS is after AOTC, and there is a whole war in between AOTC and ROTS where they find it out. At the end of AOTC, They never once say they know Dooku is Sith, only that he has fallen to the Darkside. They don't fond out until during the Clone Wars that he is in fact a Sith.

    Also, Lucas cannot have creative control of TCW(which I do not like alot about that show, but it is his creation and he is a creative supervisor or something to that nature, so his fingers are right in it), which has Assajj Ventress, who is not a Sith because of the Rule of Two, which was established in TPM(and the OT in a subtle way, since it was never said outright, but still excercised), but is a Darksider. So there is Lucas Canon that establishes there are Dark Jedi.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I'm not the one trying to convert ambiguity into certainty.

    He is indicating his suspicion, but suspicions are not guaranteed to be confirmed. In the EU it turned out that his impression was not accurate. In the films it could have gone either way, there is not enough information to determine the precise timeline. The precise timeline would not be known until further investigation which takes place after the film.

    They do not necessarily know the exact time of his death.

    Why assume things right after being told not to assume anything? He is merely giving his impression but not portraying it as an irrevocable conclusion.

    Not exactly. What it shows is that they haven't told anyone that could possibly have passed the information on to the Jedi. This would presumably include any representatives of the Senate due to the fact that the Jedi have allies and contacts in the Senate.
  11. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    In TPM Qui-Gon encounters Maul and all he learns is that he uses a red lightsaber and is "well versed in the Jedi arts" He concludes that Maul is a Sith Lord. If other Darksiders are known why would Qui-Gon make the leap that Maul was a Sith? Esp since he knew the Sith were long since dead. At films end the other Jedi are sure that Maul was a Sith even though they never spoke with him. So in TPM the jedi see red lightsaber + knowledge of the Force = Sith. So then they see Dooku with red lightsaber and knowledge of the Force so why would that not make him a Sith? No based on TPM the Jedi would think Dooku is a Sith plus the movies has no other term for Darksiders than Sith.

    In any event the issue was that the Jedi would no longer see Dooku as a political idealist or a good person but as an evil person and not to be trusted. And Darkside = evil, that is made very clear by Yoda in ESB.
    So Sith or no, Dooku is now the enemy of the Jedi so his potential involvement with the clone army would be relevant.

    Regards
    Nordom

  12. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    I am just taking what the characters say as being correct UNTILL I have reason to think otherwise.
    When Han Solo introduces himself I actually take his word for it and do not assume that this is his personal April Fools Day and that his real name is actually Slosk Klosk. Or when Tarkin says that the senate is disbanded I again think this is correct and that he is not playing a prank of the other officers.
    Your reasoning makes ALL dialogue suspect and only when there is PROOF that what is said is actually true then it can be used.

    The movies NEVER proves him wrong and you admit that based on AotC alone we have no reason to assume that he is wrong. So that means he is correct until he hear otherwise. Which we never do. Again EU is not the movies and again you illustrate how the films do not stand on their own because the films do not make sense without them.
    There IS enough evidence IN the film, Obi-Wan knows both dates and according to him, Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered. It is POSSIBLE that he is wrong but there is no EVIDENCE that he is wrong. So untill we get a REASON to think Obi-Wan is wrong we take what he says as thruth. To do otherwise means you just ignore what the characters say willy-nilly.
    This "further investigation" is never seen, spoken of or implied so an audience that JUST watches the films would have no knowledge of it.

    Evidence of this?
    You are trying to create uncertainty were no such thing is said or even implied.

    Exactly, so Obi-Wan is not making some assumptions or guesses or mentions things he is not sure of.

    He gives his conclusion based on what he knows at the time. The phrase "I was under the impression" is defined as "to think or understand a particular stated thing". So Obi-Wan IS making a conclusion based on two dates, the date of Sifo-Dyas death, which he already knows and the date the clone army was ordered, which the Kamino people told him. There is nothing irrevocable here, Obi-Wan CAN be proven wrong but the he never IS proven wrong IN the films.


    Who says that everyone in the senate is totally honest? Given that this army is illegal and the senate has not given it's official ok then IF the Kamino people did talk to anyone in the senate then those people would keep quiet about it. We know that the Jedi did not know about it and officially neither did the senate.
    The line itself does suggest that the have spoken to SOMEONE about it but not mentioned the Jedi's part in it.
    Who this someone is could be debated.

    Regards
    Nordom
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As usual you have the situation entirely backwards. I don't need evidence to show they don't necessarily know something. You need evidence to assert that they do.

    It is only speculation that they spoke to anyone about it.

    He gives no conclusion. He merely relays an impression.

    That goes both ways. He is also not proven right in the films. You continue to insist nonsensically that this ambiguity means your bias must be right.

    Obi-Wan is not making assumptions in the sense of Yoda's statement, meaning jumping to conclusions and then assuming these conclusions must necessarily be true. It is untenable to assume that Yoda is ruling out acknowledged guesses as opposed to jumping to conclusions.

    As you well know, that's only part of my position, with the other part conveniently omitted. We also have no reason to assume he is right. We have no reason to assume anything either way until more information emerges.

    "Obi-Wan knows both dates" is not in the film.

    All Obi-Wan says is that he has an impression. That is easily taken as correct because Obi-Wan has no reason to lie about his impression. But that does not mean his impression is correct. Impressions are not always correct, even if an audience assumes they must be.
  14. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Can it be said that AOTC's greatest flaw was that it didn't have the PT's best villain in it?

    With Maul's survival and all, it seems odd that they kept him out of it.
    [face_whistling]




    :p

    ***

    I never understood the ineptitude of the Jedi in that movie. OOU: The whole Sifo-Dyas "was actually a Jedi" thing was a mess to begin with; and IU, they never bothered cleaning it up. The result is the Jedi simply look blind and dumb to the most obvious things.

    It wasn't the original writing, Sidious could easily pose as a Jedi and who on Kamino would question him? They certainly didn't question Sifo Dyas, did they? In the end, it was the revisions and story edits that karked-up the whole clone army thing. Too much concentration on the here and now, with no focus on what else needed to be done with the clone story for it to make sense that the Jedi would unquestionably use them. Let alone become their generals.

    Poor planning + bad revisions = stupid plot points
    (that can never be retconned to fit seamlessly)
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The Jedi knowing for a fact that the army was ordered by someone posing as a Jedi is no better than the Jedi not knowing for certain whether one of their own had something to do with it; in fact, some would say it is worse.
  16. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    That isn't my issue....
    At this point, C3P0 could have ordered the clones for all I care.

    My deal is that the clone army "story" (as it currently stands) is wholly unbelievable.

    The only conclusion I can draw from what's onscreen is that the Jedi don't know their right hand from the left and that they are as blind as they are stupid. They appeared as bumbling idiots and did it well.

    But I don't blame them, OOU.
    It's not their fault....

    nobody could survive unscathed from that craptastic, hodge-podge of a story arc.



  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They think it's the will of the Force that they found the army.

    That isn't so much stupidity as it is misplaced faith.
  18. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    Obi-Wan knows that SD is dead and also when he died, why assume that he was the only Jedi that knew this?
    Mace and Yoda was ON the council at the same time as Sifo-Dyas, if Obi-Wan knew about his death why on earth would they not know about it? Also neither of them question Obi-Wan about his statement about SD or the clone army. If they didn't know that he was dead then I would imagine them being quite suprised to hear this.

    Not really as the line implies that they have spoken to someone. If they haven't then the line makes little sense.

    The phrase "I was under the impression" is defined as "to think or understand a particular stated thing".
    So Obi-Wan has an understanding about the two dates, when SD died and when the army was ordered.

    If Obi-Wan doesn't know when SD died and/or when the clone army was ordered then he IS jumping to conclusions by saying that SD was dead before the army was ordered. He is making a statement based on nothing. Given what Yoda said I find this unlikely. It is much more reasonable to think that Obi-Wan is basing his statement on things he actually knows.


    First why is the line even there? If we can't take it to mean anything then why is it even IN the film?
    You seem to argue that you can remove the line and nothing at all changes. I do not, the line is there for a reason. The line tells us that the Jedi have reason to doubt that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, which is enforced by Mace saying "whoever" about the person that ordered the clone army. After that the whole issue is dropped.
    So we get NO other information.

    Your logic makes ALL dialogue useless untill proven correct. We can not assume that Han Solo's name is actually Han Solo, we can not assume that the senate was disbanded in ANH, we can not assume that Yoda actually is 900 years old etc.

    Yes it is the line has been repeated to you many times. "They say a Master Sifo-Dyas
    placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he
    was killed before that." Also if you argue that Obi-Wan DOESN'T know both dates then he IS making an assumption regarding Sifo-Dyas being dead. Which Yoda TOLD him not to do and YOU admitted that he doesn't do, so you have just defeated your own point here.

    Everything CAN be proven to be incorrect, so your logic makes ALL dialogue possibly wrong and thus not useable.
    Nice job, now we can't take ANYTHING as being correct. So Luke's name need not be Luke, Vader might not be his father etc.

    Regards
    Nordom

  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Covered that with calling out their blindness.:p
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Everything CAN be proven to be incorrect, so your logic makes ALL dialogue possibly wrong and thus not useable.


    I hate to say this, but I believe this is an assumption on your part.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I figure it makes more sense for the Jedi to report an army to the Senate that was "ordered by a Jedi Master" than one that was "ordered by person or persons unknown masquerading as a dead Jedi Master".
  23. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    What I also want to know is..

    Assuming he wasn't killed, how did Sifo-Dyas intend on paying for the GAR, as well as the clone template?
  24. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    When I first saw AOTC and it was clear Obi-Wan and Anakin were being sent on separate adventures, I was somewhat excited that Obi-Wan's story was being set up like a detective mystery.

    Only Obi-Wan turned out to be a complete idiot with no detective skills whatsoever. Obi-Wan is basically lead down a path by the nature of the script, between a sequence of events that don't really involve any actual reasoning or detective work.

    Worse, when disturbing facts are placed before him despite his own incompetence, he (and the Jedi council) just basically drool in a corner.

    The entire mystery is laid out before them -- the blockade in TPM, Sifo Dyas, ordering the clones, Jango running to the CIS on Geonosis... They're completely too dumb to even think. Some detective story.
  25. Orochi Oni Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2013
    star 1
    I don't see this as a major flaw in the plot. The prequels made it quite clear that the Jedi were idiots.
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