PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

But from Padme's perspective there is no reason to suspect Dooku is playing both sides at that point. And as an audience, we are seeing this from her perspective. So it doesn't make sense. Padme's political position works completely to Dooku's advantage. Why would he want her dead????

So they are willing to use a Sith-created army to fight in a war they know is bogus? It just doesn't add up. And they DO have a choice. At the time of the arena, the CIS has not attacked anyone yet. The war has not started. Why not go to the Senate and let them know you have cracked the case? Again, you know it's Count Dooku who ordered the clones. And wouldn't it also be obvious that your enemy has probably arranged so that you lose in this rigged fight?

I just don't buy it. Putting the clone/morality issue aside, how can you possibly use an army your enemy, a Sith, has set you up to use? Especially when they are not attacking anyone. There was no urgency to using the clones whatsoever. No planet was being attacked. The planets in the CIS were joining voluntarily.

 

So they are willing to use a Sith-created army to fight in a war they know is bogus? It just doesn't add up.

Remember that at this point, the Sith haven't been around for generations, and are somewhat a thing of legends. The evidence of an evil plot is a hard sell to begin with, but when you suspect that an ancient order consisting of TWO PEOPLE is behind a world-wide conspiracy, you don't just present that theory to the senate without looking crazy.
The Jedi are faced with the option of putting themselves at risk by opposing a government with a clone army (which is what eventually happens), or playing along and hoping their fears are the result of their imagination, a series of coincidences and deception on the part of Dooku. Or maybe there's a third option, waiting a planning to strike against the Sith once they feel directly threatened. And again, that happens eventually.

 

One-- Because it was the price of Nute Gunray's involvement. Two-- Because with nobody to stand in the way of the Military Creation Act, the Republic is more likely to attack first, casting the Separatists as the victims in the war.

No, at the time of the arena, the CIS hasn't attacked anyone yet. They've only captured two Jedi Knights and a Senator while spying, and are in the midst of executing them when they refuse to join their rebellion. Also, the Senate has been told about the case being cracked, and has all the information about the droid-army, the clones, and everything. And guess what? They're the ones who make the decision to use the clones. It isn't the Jedi's choice. The Senate even has to engineer a vote for Palpatine behind the scenes so he has emergency-powers and nobody can ask any questions about the clone army, like where it came from, for example. By that time, it's the Jedi's sworn duty to serve the Senate with the clones, whether they like it or not.

 

...We've had threads about all this before. Still doesn't change my enjoyment of the film an iota.

 

It honestly doesn't matter what Lucas says off screen. He called the Gungans "Gunga". He said the Jedi protected the galaxy for "1,000 years" in the PT but in the OT Obi Wan said "1,000 generations." All that matters is what is on screen. And Obi Wan said he was dead by the time the Clones were ordered.

Agreed. but that is all we have to work with. Just the simple fact that the Jedi never called Sifo-Dyas makes Obi Wan correct or again, the entire internal logic crumbles on itself. There would be absolutely no excuse to not contact Sifo_Dyas immediately (even he's off in the Outer Rim) to come in and explain himself. Thus the movie informs us that he is dead.

Huh? Jango knew he did not kill Obi Wan. Obi Wan evaded him. And when Obi Wan arrives on Geonosis, he is captured within minutes, kind of like they knew he was there.

Wrong. They absolutely do not have to know who Papatine really is. It's irrelevant. What they do know is that someone in the government is involved and that is what matters. So the government and the Sith are pulling the strings in this phony conflict. Whether it's Palpatine, Bail Organa or the Blue Guy doesn't really matter. And it only makes sense that Dooku created the army since every single red flag/clue points to him. And only him.

I was pretty sure they call him "your master" to Obi Wan, but i may be wrong. But again, this is really irrelevant to the Jedi's conclusions.

So the fact that Dooku kills Jedi, says he has trained in the dark side for a decade, uses a red saber and is.....EVIL..isn't a giveaway?? C'mon he's a Sith. At some point, we should reasonably expect the characters to use their brains.

 

Not exactly. The Sith have been back and fully revealed for a decade. Darth Maul was as real as it gets. So by AOTC, the Jedi have full confirmation the Sith are back and working in government conspiracies. Remember Maul was working with the Trade Federation. So they are not just out to get the Jedi, they are out for some sort of political dominance.

But remember, the Jedi know where the clones came from. They can bring in Lama Su or just have her on a screen explaining the mysterious nature of the order. How did Sifo pay? What did he look like? All this could actually come out in a real investigation. Once the Senate knows there's an army of 10 million men that has been in production for 10 years, how crazy could the Jedi really look?

What is the risk? Remember, the Military Creation Act was there to form an army. The Jedi can support an army being formed, but not the clones. I mean what if the clones had some sort of programming in them to make then turn on their masters whenever the Sith Lord who ordered them hit a switch??

Oh...

 

And on the same note, isn't it odd that when Lama Su is giving Obi Wan his guided tour, she failed to mention that every clone was being programmed with special instructions to kill all Jedi?? Seems like a rather odd detail to leave out.

 

Even if. What does that change? What did you expect from them?
Killing all senators, separatists, droids, taking over the Republic (as Palpatine suggested in ROTS) and giving the clones back to Kamino?
They had no choice. They were attacked and helped to defend the Republic (and millions of innocents) but decided to keep a closer eye on the senate. Once they identified Sidious' they tried to kill him immediately. So what's wrong?
BTW: The senate is not the government. At least not necessarily. I don't know how the SW-Republic works, but the government is normally a subset of the senate. That may differ though. I'm not an expert.

 

Actually, what Obi-Wan said is that for over 1,000 generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. What we get in the PT is that the Sith have been extinct for a millenium, and that this Republic has stood for a thousand years. So really, all that means is the Jedi have been fighting the Sith and preserving peace in the Republic for longer than the 1,000 years it's been since the Sith were known to exist, so the generations comment makes sense. Discounting stuff like KOTOR we have no idea what things were like beyond that timeframe, so it makes sense.

I always figured the sequence of events was this-- Dooku, as Tyranus, hires Jango to kill Syfo-Dias, to test his abilities with Jedi. Then he sets up the Clone Army order with Kamino, under the guise of the recently slain Syfo-Dias. He then erases Kamino from the archives and leaves the Order permanently. The pieces are there, and even if that isn't the order they're supposed to be placed in, it makes sense. I was never confused.

No. Jango thought he did kill him, from the explosion. Obi-Wan hid on the asteroid, then went down. He was only caught later, after doing a lot of investigation, by a Geonosian patrol.

But as you yourself keep saying, the Jedi don't believe Dooku at that point. It's only at the end that they begin to consider that he might've been telling the truth, and even then all they have to go on is someone is manipulating the Senate, and for all they know it could be someone on the outside, simply using the Force. It doesn't have to be someone within the government. Maybe it's Rupert Murdoch.

They think he's "a leading member of the Jedi Council", which would hypothetically put him on the same level as Yoda, Mace or Ki-Adi.

Dooku never says how long he's trained in the Dark Side. Technically, he never admits to training in the Dark Side at all. Yoda senses it in him, but all he says is he's more powerful than any Jedi.

 

"Apart from his pay which IS considerable" - Lama Su

He didn't say "was." Meaning they are still paying him for his services. Plus Lama Su said "Oh...we keep him here." Jango Fett is still working on this clone project. It doesn't matter whether Jango likes living on Kamino or doesn't, he's currently working for the clone army creators and/or a Sith Lord in the Jedi's mind.

Obi-Wan was trying to take Jango Fett in alive. He's not trying to hurt or kill him. Note how easily Mace deals with Jango later. Of course the scene where Mace kills Jango is fairly crap given that he disarms him (literally) and instead of letting that be, beheads him. The Jedi wanted to question him but for some weird reason Mace decides to kill him before getting more answers out of him. In the next movie, Lucas has Anakin struggle (after disarming Dooku) whether to kill him or not. Not saying it would have been easy getting Jango out of the arena for questioning, but he didn't give it a try at all.

He sent in Threepio, Artoo, Leia, Chewbacca and Lando Calrissian first. Lando specifically could have alerted him to any Imperial presence in Jabba's Palace. But Jabba's Palace did not strike me as a place where Imperial Troops are welcome given that he's running a crime syndicate which no doubt breaks the laws of the Empire quite often. I think in this instance, a Vader trap could have been found out before Luke stepped foot in the Palace. Not to mention by then Luke was getting pretty good at sensing when Vader or danger was approaching.

Dyas (apparently) tricked the Kaminoans into believing the Jedi Council authorized the creation of a clone army. He also died 10 years ago and the K

 

Well, remember. Mace and Jango are in the middle of a huge battle, right there. Jango is doing his best to kill Jedi left and right, and even if you destroy his blasters or cut off a limb, he's still armed to the teeth in his Mandalorian armor. So really, Mace has no choice but to kill him, in self defense.

 

The yeti, the Loch Ness monster, the devil, the Illuminati, and the chupacabra have been "fully revealed" too. That doesn't mean anybody's going to know what you're talking about, or care, let alone believe you.

Also, do you ever stop and look at the world we live in and go "wait, this doesn't add up"? You're right. Things don't make sense. And its your fault and mine, the same as the Jedi.

 

But, like I said, the Kaminoans may still have need of him as the original source. And really, there's no reason for Jango not to accept -- it's a cushy job with lots of long-term pay. For a bounty hunter, a secure source of cash must be hard to come by. And with a kid to take care of, Jango would be a fool to refuse. And the fact that he's a bounty hunter means he has no allegiance to either cause. There's no idealism involved in his work for either side. So the extent to which Jango is a threat is directly related to how much they're willing to pay him.

And, to be fair to Jango, he was majorly inhibited by having to fight the reek (which he took down in one shot while Mace only managed to wound it). The destruction of his jetpack left him pretty vulnerable in the arena. And, with a battle brewing, neither men were really in the position to take prisoners. How would Mace secure and transport Jango for one? Usually, this line of thought is to take him alive, if you can, but kill him if you must.

But the only one who is in a position to pass on information is Lando. And Luke's risking quite a lot on the fact that Lando will be completely in the know as a recently hired security guard. I agree that Imperial troops would likely be unwelcome at Jabba's Palace, but I also don't think that Jabba is stupid enough to cross Vader, especially if he can get something out of it. And Luke's ability to sense traps seems to be related to Vader's actual physical proximity. If Vader directed a mission from afar, then Luke would be placing himself and his friends in a dangerous situation (rescuing Han) that just go significantly worse.

 

I'm going to try and condense some of this, PiettsHat.

Addressing Jango vs Mace, if Mace could cut off one hand he could cut off the other. At the very least this would have slowed down Jango's escape. With Mace knowing that the Clones would be arriving soon it might give them enough time to capture him later. Hell, maybe even just cutting off the one hand would have been enough to let Jango run off. But given how central he was to the investigation, beheading him after disarming him seemed a bit extreme.

Addressing Luke at Jabbas Palace, as far as I'm concerned Luke sent in a team to stake the place out and whatever he learned was enough to go ahead with the mission to save Han. Should Vader have set a trap at Jabba's palace? Maybe. But perhaps he felt that the last time he did that, it didn't work out the way he intended. Or maybe he felt that this time Luke wouldn't fall for it so why bother. Instead, he would be patient.

Adressing Dooku, if the Jedi thought Dooku wanted to take the army when the time was right, then he botched that pretty good by doing two things. The first was sending Jango to kill Amidala. If he truly wanted to keep the clones secret, then why send Jango of all of the millions of bounty hunters he could have picked? The second mistake and perhaps even more relevant would have been not collecting the clones after he learned that Obi-Wan was tracking Jango Fett. If there was even the slightest chance that the Jedi may discover the clones, then it was time to get over to Kamino to fulfill that part of the plan. If he thought he didn't have enough time, then standing around waiting for the clones to arrive on Geonosis seems like another ridiculous maneuver which is hard to believe.

So really we're just back to either the Jedi thinking that Dooku (not the separatists) knew about the Clone Army but wanted the Republic to have it, or else the Jedi think Dooku knew nothing about it and Jango Fett played the Dark Lord of the Sith like a fiddle. The former being easier to believe since Jango didn't need to take on another job with that cushy and lucrative clone template project. So why did he? Is he being paid for being the template or is he being paid to start a war? So one Sith Lord controlling the droid armies and the potential for this "Darth Sidious" controlling the clone armies and you have a problem. If the Sith hold an ancient grudge against the Jedi, it's not hard to suspect they want them to die in all of this. Once the Jedi are dead, you end one of your armies permanently.

Lucas didn't want the Jedi to know that much, but unfortunately he gave them too much information to link names to each other. Even if you can't immediately prove that Tyranus is an alias of Dooku, you can greatly suspect it.

 

But did Mace know how soon the clones would be arriving? Padme is the first one to spot them, interestingly, and there's also the fact that the Jedi rapidly get surrounded by droids. In that situation, when they're being outnumbered so quickly, I don't think it's unreasonable for Mace to think that he has to take Jango out here and now rather than give him a chance to escape. Yes it's rather extreme, but the situation itself was extreme as well. Obi-Wan faced Jango on a secluded platform with no threat of military interference.

When did Luke send this team out though? Everyone you mentioned, except Lando, is taken prisoner, which rather limits their utility as a source of information. And as for Lando himself, he's one guy and only a guard at that. I doubt he'd be informed if Jabba made a deal with the Empire. Then again, there are a lot of things I don't understand about Luke's plan (like what Leia's purpose is -- if she was supposed to rescue Han, then why not simply have Lando do it?), so maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

Note that Jango subcontracted the killing to Zam Wessel though. The Jedi might have thought that this was enough cover. Likewise, Jango only killed her when she was about to mention his name. From this, the Jedi might have determined that Jango thought he'd covered his tracks well enough. Especially since the Kamino dart he used wasn't recognized by the Archives (since Dooku erased information on Kamino). It might have been inferred then, by the Jedi, that Jango never intended to get caught, but was caught unawares by Obi-Wan having a well-travelled friend. And once Dooku learned that Obi-Wan was tracking Fett (I'm assuming you mean once Fett arrives on Geonosis), the Jedi have already been made aware of the clones and Obi-Wan has, in effect, "claimed" them. He's going to have to maneuver with the Kaminoans, while the Jedi are aware of this, and risk letting his allies find out about a secret army. Not the best position.

 

Actually, it does, because they're his films, and because he never showed on screen that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered. That was nothing more than one character's impression which was never proven, and very conspicuously not confirmed on screen by anyone.

That did not happen. For some reason you insist on discussing films which you clearly aren't very familiar with.

No, he said that he was under the impression that was the case. In fact, Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time Jango showed up on Kamino, but he was still alive by the time the army was ordered, because he made the initial contact with Kamino himself.

If you agree that an impression is not confirmation, then nothing was proven by the film either way. Assuming that an unproven impression must be accurate simply because it was not proven false is tantamount to assuming that in the SW universe first impressions are always right. That is not the case in any universe.

Now you're changing the subject. It is not in dispute that Sifo-Dyas is dead by the time of AOTC. That is clear in the film.

What you're describing still has nothing to do with what happened in the film. It's a rewrite. Jango thought he killed Obi-Wan in the asteroid field; he even said so. Similarly, Jango may not have believed Obi-Wan to be certifiably dead on Kamino, but he thought Obi-Wan had dropped into the water and did not expect to be tracked by him. It was not until the asteroid field sequence that he learned they'd been tracked.

They do not know that someone in the government is involved. That's the whole point. They do not learn this until ROTS when it is discovered that Palpatine is a Sith.

No, that continues to not make sense. If Dooku represents the Separatists and their droid armies, it does not make sense that Dooku would create an army for the Republic, which would be used to fight against his own droid troops and defeat the Separatists.

It is not in dispute that the Jedi know that Dooku has turned to the dark side. They say so themselves. However, once again, you are misrepresenting the content of the film. Dooku never says that he has trained in the dark side for a decade.

 

Which it did, but it took place off screen like everything else in the intervening three years. But if it's not on screen, it doesn't matter, right? Which really just means that your mistaken and illogical assumptions are somehow still correct even when contradicted in canon. Case in point:

Unless it's not actually true. If it's not true, and thus is merely the product of fanon revisionism, it makes total sense that Lama Su "left it out". We know from EU that Order 66 was not "programmed" by the Kaminoans. However, the EU is not really necessary here. To assume that Order 66 was programmed by the Kaminoans, one must essentially ignore what Lama Su actually says in the film, which is that the clones are designed to be receptive to any order, not "programmed" with orders beforehand. Those are entirely different scenarios and only one of them is actually expressed in the film. ( One must also ignore other details such as the fact that the clones who fired on Obi-Wan didn't hear "Order 66" at all. )

 

But it's not like if Jango lives, all is lost. He cuts off Jango's hand before cutting off his head. To me that says he could have stopped at the hand and either let him run off in pain or cut the other off and let him try to survive until the clones show up. Mace won when he literally disarmed Jango. Mace expected the clones at some point. That's all he needed to know.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. I'd trust that Luke had contingency plans in place and at the very least he just wanted his troops inside the palace. That team had broken out of places more heavily armed than Jabbas palace before. Lando seemed pretty mobile in there so it's not terribly hard to believe he couldn't find out information. He was a smooth talking con artist remember.

Jango subcontracting the hit out to Zam still doesn't take away from the fact that Dooku used Jango for this hit. He could have used anyone but he put someone who could potential expose the army he's trying to keep hidden from the Jedi in the line of fire. That is amateur for a well seasoned Jedi Master.

Even if the Jedi thought that Dooku would pretend knowing nothing about the clones, it would still serve them to spread the idea that they believe he did know about them. That would very much irk the separatist leaders catching wind of that. It's already bad enough that when a clonetroopers helmet falls off, they're going to see the face of the bounty hunter associated with Dooku, but then hearing suspicions from the Republic that Dooku might have hid the location of this planet for 10 years and didn't tell them (the separatists) about this army? Then when (in the Jedi perspective) Dooku could have potentially taken over this army, he didn't because he didn't want to look bad in front of Tambor and San Hill? The theory is damaging to the CIS cause. Plus it probably wouldn't hurt to float the name Tyranus across the HoloNet to see if someone has any info on that.

 

Even though I generally defend the prequels, I have to admit the plots are often unnecessarily convoluted. But then again, does that mean the movies are bad? A lot of movies are like that (Dark Knight comes to mind), it all comes down to whether you enjoyed the movie enough to overlook some of its flaws.

 

I'll take needlessly convoluted over needlessly simple, myself. One of the reasons I felt myself drifting away from Star Wars after the Special Editions came out is because, as much as I loved the visuals, action and mythic aspects, the narratives did strike me as a little too easy at times. The early teen years are a very common time to start getting curious about more progressive, challenging brands of cinema, and in my case Lucas' work stood as a great gateway to that. I was getting into Kurosawa, Kubrick, Lang, Fellini, Godard, even earlier works by Lucas himself, and finding it all just as fun as Star Wars, but much more intellectually rewarding.

Hell, even any given anime was impressing me more than SW in the immediate build-up to TPM. It wasn't until the second trailer hit that I really started taking an interest. And a big motivating factor, beyond the jaw-dropping visuals, action and a return to the Skywalker mythos, was the more complex story. So really, I can honestly say that if it weren't for the PT, I would've outgrown Star Wars a long time ago.

 

I wouldn't be a die hard fan without the PT, so I know what you mean. That said, the plots might have been streamlined or cleaned up without losing the underlying thematic richness had Lucas more time to polish them. I suspect he was really in a rush when writing them (particularly AOTC and ROTS) - not surprising, with all the different responsibilities he had to juggle.

 

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Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

 

As far as the OT goes, the original Star Wars is the only one with the decently developed plot. After reading "The Making of Star Wars", I think we have to thank "The Hidden Fortress" and the budget cuts for that.

 

Really? How did Luke become a fully fledged Jedi Knight by the beginning of RETURN OF THE JEDI? Please don't tell me that he studied the notes that he found in Obi-Wan's Tatooine hut, because that answer doesn't make any sense. There is NO WAY someone can achieve the skills that Luke had displayed without a tutor.

What was Leia doing on Hoth at the beginning of ESB? She wasn't the base's military leader, because there was already a general from the Rebel Alliance there. She could not have been there as the sole political leader on the base, because no political leader during wartime would be that stupid. Was she simply visiting Hoth and got stuck? What was she doing there?

How long did Luke's training on Dagobah last? For years I have wondered. And if LucasFilm has an answer, why didn't the screenwriters hint the length of time he had spent on the planet?

Both the OT and PT have their share of flaws. I'm sorry, but I refuse to follow the path of PT bashers who insist that the second trilogy is inferior to the first one. I'm not claiming that the PT is better. But I don't think it's worse. Then again, I'm not one of those idiots who go around screaming about how George Lucas "raped my childhood".

 

Did you even read her post?