PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

the OP is a she? i think she is a changeling!

 

Didn't they?

 

He didn't cut off Jango's hand, he just cut the blaster, and if you look at his expression after he decapitated Jango, it seems to me at least, hMace didn't actually expect Jango to just stand there and die just like that.

 

I guess I was so used to Jedi cutting off limbs with their opponents weapon I figured he took the hand with it or at least his fingers.

Jango, after killing the Reek, turns around and sees a Jedi Master running at him with a lightsaber. He uses his blaster while taking steps back because his pack has been damaged. It almost looks like a fools hope that he could stop Mace with a blaster. What doesn't seem right is Mace disarming Jango and then deciding to take his head off. We had seen countless scenarios where Jedi have been able to take down their opponents without killing them. It was such a mismatch that I could hardly believe Mace couldn't have jabbed Jango in the arm or leg (like Dooku does to Obi-Wan) to cripple him without killing such a vital witness to their investigation. Jango did not strike me as the type who would fight to the bitter end like the black knight in Holy Grail. There'd be no motivation to. In fact, had Mace not charged Jango, it is very likely that without the comfort of his jet pack, Jango would have tried to hide or run away if he could. A living Jango Fett far better serves their investigation than a dead one. Plus Jango Fett is not a threat to the galaxy so letting him run off is no big shake. Just try to find him later by tracking Slave 1.

I have no problem with Lucas killing Jango Fett, in fact it serves the story best that he died. But he didn't do it in a way that convinces me that it was necessary from a Jedi standpoint. To me it just adds to the idea that Lucas didn't really think out Jedi motivations or thoughts too well.

 

I thought Mace was just being badass. My mistake...

 

Split-second nitpicking like this doesn't make any sense to me. Jango is trying to kill Mace Windu. Mace Windu kills Jango before he can do that. Yeah, capturing him alive would probably be better in the long-term, but in the short-term, Mace is more concerned with survival. Questioning that is the equivalent of complaining about Han shooting Greedo, no matter who fires first-- would it be to Han's benefit in the long-term not to kill one of Jabba's enforcers? Probably, but that's of little concern when said enforcer is pointing a gun in your face.

Something the OT and PT have in common-- controversies over killing bounty hunters in self defense. Amazing.

 

I have no problems with Han Solo shooting Greedo first. But I do not compare Han Solo to that of a Jedi Master. Whole different set of abilities and power. In TESB, Han Solo opens fire on Lord Vader on Bespin, but do you see Vader cutting down Han because he felt threatened? No. He blocks the blaster fire with his hand, and takes the weapon with the force. Why? Because it is not in his best interest to kill Han even when he's firing a blaster at him. He has bigger plans. Jango is a star witness in their investigation of the clone army. Jango fires on an already charging Mace and instead of just disarming the human, he goes overkill. I don't think the battle is much of an excuse when we see a battle droid firing upon Jedi only for Kit Fisto to just force push him down and keep him pinned without ending his droid life.

Jango Fett is just a human and his main source of power was broken by the Reek. I will never believe for a second that Mace couldn't have just disarmed Jango and or wounded him like Obi-Wan does when Zam threatens his life.

 

First of all-- the thing linking Han and Mace is that, in both those scenes, their lives are threatened. Vader, obviously, has nothing to fear from a punk-ass like Han, so killing him would be unnecessary. Likewise Fisto with Battle Threepio. Greedo and Jango, however, pose real threats to their targets, and are eliminated by necessity. And remember, even if you just cut off Jango's arms, he's still seven or eight different kinds of walking weapons. So in the heat of battle (not a more or less under-control situation like the night-club, where nobody else was trying to kill Obi-Wan), there's really no time to debate risk-vs-reward.

 

What? Han opens fire on Vader. If Vader had nothing to fear then he should have just stood there and done nothing. Instead he blocks the blaster shots and disarms Han. So obviously there was some level of threat. However disarming him was easy as pie. A lot easier than it would have been for a non-force user armed with only a blaster himself going against Han.

Once again, I have no problem with Han killing Greedo first. I do believe Greedo posed a threat to Han as the battle was much more even and Han did not have any good reason to keep Greedo alive.

So even without limbs, you think Jango would have kept coming at Mace Windu like the black knight in holy grail? Sort of like Ponda Baba did with Obi-Wan in ANH, or the Wampa in TESB, or Vader towards Luke in ROTJ, or Zam in AOTC, or Anakin in AOTC, or Dooku in ROTS, or Anakin in ROTS. They sure did keep up their attacks didn't they. If Mace had the power to get right next to Jango and disarm him then he had the power to not behead him but just take an arm or a leg. Or just do as Dooku did to Obi-Wan later and slash him twice. Jango is only human and he would have gone into shock like everyone else.

I am not convinced that a Jedi Master couldn't have controlled himself enough to take a prisoner during a battle or just not kill someone they didn't have to kill nor wanted dead. I'm under the belief that Jedi Masters are not that rash.

 

Yeah. Vader blocking the blasts isn't much of an effort on his part. Like you said, it isn't a major threat to him. And as for disarming him-- he's in control of the situation. Han's an ant compared to him, in a fight. And he has a whole army with him. And the element of surprise, etc. None of which Mace has, at least at the moment he's attacked by Jango.

For me, it makes no difference who fires first. Pointing a gun ant somebody and shooting really aren't that different from a legal point of view, in a self-defense case, I'd think.

Again-- he's under fire from all directions. It's the middle of a battle. And he's facing a guy who just shot a giant bull-thing to death and previously used a flamethrower on him, not to mention the other dozen ways he's armed to the teeth. If it weren't for all the distractions and pressure of mortal danger everywhere, I'm sure Mace would've at least considered the strategic importance of Jango in the investigation. But at that moment-- he was too dangerous to be kept alive.

 

I understand the argument that Windu could have just cut off his arms and legs to just leave him on the floor and the question him later, but as that time how was Mace supposed to know they would win win the battle. At that time the Jedi seemed to be pretty much beaten, it was just a question of time so Fett would have gotten away.

 

Fett crawling or running away is easier to question later than Fett without his head. Mace may not have been sure that he and his fellow Jedi would have survived long enough to when the clones arrived, but he knew the clones were coming. Had he just wounded Jango and let him crawl or run away or even just lay there, some other Jedi not in the arena or clones could have captured him later during the battle of Geonosis or beyond. Even if Mace didn't know the clones were coming, the possibility of capturing Jango at a later date was entirely possible for the Republic. Mace didn't have to kill him just because his troops were failing. Some things are bigger than one battle. Wounding him would have taken him out of commission like it did to so many people and creatures throughout the saga.

Lando opens a door, Han sees Vader and starts blasting. Jango turns around after battling the Reek, sees Mace Windu charging and starts blasting. Mace has the element of surprise because Jango was distracted by the Reek. Han was distracted by Lando's smooth tongue and Jango was distracted by the Reek. In fact, Jango only landed near Mace because he felt he had the element of surprise because Mace was being distracted by the Reek. Funny how that works out.

I'm not saying Mace didn't have the right to kill Jango Fett. I'm saying he didn't have to and he shouldn't have based on his importance to the investigation.

The pressures and distractions of the battle didn't stop Mace from force grabbing his lightsaber before Jango could jump on it.

When Obi-Wan was being shot at by battle droids, it didn't distract him from chopping the legs off the Acklay. The only reason he didn't let the poor beast live is because it served no purpose whatsoever staying alive.

Jango would not be too dangerous to be kept alive if he's down on the ground in shock from losing a limb or being slashed like Dooku did to Obi-Wan. Jango is NOT going to hop after Mace Windu on one leg or start picking fights with other Jedi Masters while he's in shock! Since Mace was able to get so close that he could disarm Jango, that second strike could have been to the bounty hunters arm or leg. It didn't have to be his head. Jango is just a human and he would have fallen just like every other person/creature in the saga with the loss of a limb or a slash from the lightsaber.

 

If you're going to quote my words, can you at least give them the proper context, please?

 

No, they didn't.

 

This is how I see it:

Han vs Vader
-- Vader is a Sith Lord armed to the teeth with so many ways to kill an oppoent via the Force. He's flanked by stormtroopers who are on his side. What's he up against? A crazy punk named Solo who has...a blaster. A puny blaster. Yes, when Han started firing, Vader had to defend himself. Note how calmly Vader did it. He just raised a hand and let the bolts deflect harmlessly on his glove. Once he removed Han's blaster with the Force, Han was completely defenseless. Vader was in full control of the situation. Even if Han got desperate enough to jump onto the table and charge at Vader, this guy still has the Force to keep Han's punk ass in check, that and, again, the stormtroopers who have their blasters trained on Han, Leia and Chewie.

Mace vs Jango
-- Mace is a guy with the Force and a lightsaber. Jango is a bounty hunter armed to the teeth with so many ways to kill an opponent. They are both in the heat of battle. Mace is focused on surviving until the Clones arrive and he's facing a guy who just took a flamethrower to him. Sure Jango's blaster was destroyed, but you think any competent bounty hunter would be without anything else to kill their opponent? For all Mace knew, Jango was about to pull out a grenade, which could explain why Jango was just standing there. Had he and Jango been fighting in a more calmer setting and Mace destroyed Jango's jetpack and blaster, I think he would have opted for the capturing.

 

I thought they did.

 

The Wook article on Jango sheds any light on it as well.

Personally, when I see that scene I have to agree with DARTHLINK in that Mace had to ahve been expecting something.

I feel that Mace's reaction is one of thinly veiled suprise because he didn't expect Jango to just pretty much stand there. I mean that swing along wasn't the most precise one, it could have easily been dodged it would seem. Either way you look at it, Mace seems to be expecting Jango to do something else.

 

I just see it as a look from Mace Windu saying to Count Dooku "How do you like your bounty hunter now?"

Once again I state that if Mace could get that close to Jango and take two swings, one of them did not have to be a killing blow. Mace could have cut off a limb just as Obi-Wan cut off Zams arm and she fell, just as Dooku cut off Anakins arm and he fell, just as Luke cut off Vaders hand and he fell, etc. The pain and shock would have broken Jango. Outside of the Reek, the battle surrounding them had not interfered in their confrontation. Just as it didn't when Obi-Wan took to dissecting the Acklay. A broken Jango is easier to interrogate later than a dead Jango. Jango is a bounty hunter and has a kid. He's probably one of the last people who would keep fighting to the end. Zam didn't fight to the end. If he had lost a leg he wouldn't be hopping after Mace nor picking any other fights.

Jango should have been killed, but I do not agree with the way Lucas went regarding the death. It wasn't consistent and came across as Mace completely not caring whether Jango lives or dies. I think the reason for that is simply that Lucas didn't realize or pay importance to the investigation continuing.

 

This times infinite.

 

I'm with Hook on this cxapturing Jango debate.

You have the main piece of evidence to the whole plot against the republic amd you cut his head off. Real smart Jules Jedi.

I would expect Obi-Wan to yell out at Mace "you just killed my main wintess!".

The jedi unfortunately went from aloof wizards in a tower in TPM to outright Sidious stooges in AOTC.

Unforgivable.

 

Right you are, Shane.

I can't believe people wouldn't at least consider what Mace does to be somewhat ironic.

"It's ironic..." There ya go, folks. Chancellor Palpatine -- the flippin' Emperor, no less -- articulates, in black and white, the WHOLE of the Prequel Trilogy, in two words.

At the start of AOTC, Mace boasts to Padme that Dooku couldn't assassinate anyone, because he was once a member of the Jedi Council, and it's not "in his character". Yet in the next movie, Mace tries to assassinate Palpatine, ruler of the Galactic Republic, a few feet from where he condescends to Padme with those very words.

And then there's this. Jango was meant to be brought in for questioning. That order came from the very top of Jedi hierarchy. Instead, Mace arrives, or more accurately, reveals himself, on Geonosis, by...? Placing his active lightsaber over Jango's neck -- a rather gruesome gesture in all that it implies. Him later decapitating Jango has an inevitable air of retribution to it. It's not at all noble or honourable.

Then there's poor little Boba. Battle over, anguish just beginning. Boba is left to pick up the pieces. Quite literally. The Jedi are implicated in Boba's shattered life, mirroring their failure with Anakin. And it was Mace who delivered the death blow. Mace Windu: he of the purple saber (blue and RED), he who makes an attempt on an incumbent leader's life, he who considers himself judge, jury and executioner.

The PT Jedi are violent, power-crazy and fearful. Just because the Sith are no better, it doesn't excuse the Jedi.

My 0.02 cents.

 

yes mace windu is overrated because he is played by Samuel L Jackson and he has a purple lightsaber.

I mean he is kinda cool, but his actions in ROTS is just fail. The more i see him in the EU and the novels of the films, i see someone who doesn't know they are madly obsessed with saving their "love" (the republic) and will do rash things and essentially anything to protect it. i guess that makes Mace similar to Anakin though Mace's love of the republic is from the EU.

still he was a fool and was power hunger, even if he didn't know it. Perhaps a subconscious desire to kill the senators he felt Sidious had corrupted, and then make himself...Chancellor Windu? Reestablishing Jedi hold over the republic.

His guns blazing approach in ROTS made me feel he wanted power. he was going to take Palpatine in violently (lightsabers drawn) whether or not he was a Sith.

his death was a culmination of the jedi arrogance, foolishness, shortsighted nature and stupidity. Good riddance.

 

Actually, by the end of Shatterpoint, Mace has come to the conclusion that dropping a bomb on the Geonosis arena would not have been the right thing to do. So there's that.

 

LOE closes the hole you suggest is there in ATOC

 

LOE isn't a Star Wars movie.