PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

Mace's use of "whoever" indicates doubt on his part; it does not indicate that Windu definitely disbelieves S-D's involvement. You're drawing certainty from ambiguity.

The same can be said of your concluding that "Obi-Wan DOES know the timeline as he speaks of it". This is a subjective opinion you're pulling from a dubious outline of events. As it turns out, of course, Kenobi is 100% correct (as are you) -- S-D did die before the Clones were ordered. But there is no proof of that in the film; no mention is made of precise dates. Kenobi has an "impression", not a certainty; and since there is no evidence either for or against that impression, it stands as an uncertainty as far as the Jedi investigation is concerned.

It may be that your knowing the earlier backstory and its separate treatment in the original drafts is preventing you from accepting the updated, more ambiguous version. Perhaps you had a Eureka moment in which you discovered the earlier form, and from that developed the perception that the earlier version was superior, or made better sense.

I for one will disagree with that assessment. I think it makes better sense that S-D was a real Jedi master who died around the same time, or perhaps slightly before, the Clones were ordered. As far as the Jedi or the audience know, Sifo-Dyas might have contracted Tyrannus to order the Clones for him, then died before the order could be placed. Technically this explains and fulfills Kenobi's suspicions -- S-D did die before the Clone order -- while still preserving the mystery of Tyrannus, who presumably ordered the Clones in S-D's name.

I prefer the complex intrigue to the simplified earlier form in which "Sido-Dyas" was Palpatine/Sidious, not a distinct personage known to the Jedi.

 

All three fit, if "before almost ten years ago" just means before a specific event which was almost ten years ago, as opposed to necessarily before anything that could be described as almost ten years ago.

It's already been alluded to by MerlinAmbrosius, but one thing that helps the Jedi being fine with using the clones in ROTS is that the clones have amply "proved themselves" in battle many times between AOTC and ROTS, including Geonosis. ( It also stands to reason that certain clones were probed by the Jedi, though AFAIK EU does not go into this specifically. The thing about the clones is that they have no malicious intent per se; they intend to carry out Republic orders, as advertised. )

That Dooku mentioning Jedi archives would not really be noteworthy. Besides, as your post indicates, you know about the specifics of LOE: Yoda also says that Madame Jocasta Nu found proof that Dooku had erased Kamino from the archives. In that text the Jedi do assume that Dooku erased Kamino, so this "association" wouldn't lead them anywhere they hadn't already considered.

I see one as being tantamount to the other. In other words, I see Sifo's contact regarding a clone army as the initial order. This is backed up by the text when Sidious says "the order for the army can stand", referring to Sifo's contact. What remains is to send Fett to Kamino and arrange payment "through circuitous routes", and we can say that the order isn't really under way until these things happen, but one thing LOE perhaps conspicuously leaves out is any kind of "official" follow-up order on the part of either Dooku or Sidious.

 

Only if he knows the exact date in which the clone army was ordered. Otherwise it could have been ordered 9 years and 364 days ago according to what he says they say with "almost ten years ago."

In AOTC the Republic is presented with a Clone Army out of nowhere and the theory that a Dark Lord of the Sith controls the Senate. Authority over the clones comes from the Senate. To trust in the clones is to trust that the Senate will always be on your side. With the possibility of a Sith Lord controlling hundreds of Senators, there too comes the possibility that the Senate will not always be on the side of the Jedi. After three years, the clones would have only proven themselves to the Senate, not the Jedi. That is regardless of whether the Jedi have heard the theory about the Dark Lord. But they have heard the theory so the potential for betrayal is on the table.

Add to that a man called Tyranus (friendly) hiring the clone template who isn't exactly a nice guy and it's hard to believe the Jedi would feel comfortable with the clones and their position 3 years later. Especially since an infinite number of clones are fighting an infinite number of droids with a finite number of Jedi being killed.

I'm just establishing that in the films Dooku would be a suspect in the creation of the clone army. One such way is connecting him to the erasing of Kamino from the Jedi Archives. The reference to the archives and the bust clues are just icing on the cake when compared to his ties to the clone template and being an ex-Jedi turned to evil.

Not sure if they are the same thing nor point to Dyas having actually done the deed. The conversation in the book makes sure to point

 

I don't see how that makes the clones any more worthy of suspicion. If anything, this just reinforces the fact that the army has been doing its job well, as advertised.

In the EU the Jedi have deducted that he did that. This may be inevitable given the short list of suspects with Jedi experience. However, this does not lead them to conclude that he was involved with the creation of the army, but that he found out about it and ultimately built up the droid army in response to it. To the Jedi the kind of thing that happens in ROTS is unthinkable. They cannot conceive that they would end up not on the same side as the Republic. Even if they did have uncertainty regarding the clones, which could arguably be hinted at in the end of AOTC, close examination of the clones at that point probably wouldn't have yielded any enlightenment.

That's likely just Luceno maintaining consistency with AOTC as he sees it. The Kaminoan is seemingly about to announce Obi-Wan as Sifo-Dyas before Obi-Wan gives his name. ( It also acts as a preemptive answer to those who suggest the Jedi should simply have shown the Kaminoans Sifo's picture. )

According to Sidious in the text, that contact was considered an order. This is also evident in the conversation between Obi-Wan and Yoda. Obi-Wan asks if Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, and Yoda's answer about Sifo's contact is cast as an affirmative response to Obi-Wan's question.

Either would be equally likely. Killing Sifo because he has become "the man who knew too much" is equally Sidious-y ( and kills two birds with one stone by also addressing Dooku's allegiance ).

 

It reinforces the theory that the Senate might be controlled by the Sith in that it plays into a plot to destroy the Jedi. That's why I wrote the other paragraph and extra sentence along with what you quoted above.

I would say he's on the really REALLY short list since he has dealings with the clone template AND is in the army building business too.

I didn't see any indication that Taun We was about to call Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas. She just didn't know his name. She didn't introduce herself to him either. She was just excited to see a Jedi finally and or a terrible secretary. Not to mention he'd have been rather young 10 years ago to believe he was a leading member of the Jedi Council.

Also why would there need to be a preemptive answer on that? If Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones, what harm does it do to say they could identify him via a picture? But instead of saying the Kaminoans correctly identified Master Dyas, he writes they've never seen him.

Though in that book, Yoda bases that answer off of some vague existing record of his initial contact that we know cannot be a hologram or video recording since the Kaminoans never saw him. Why is this kept so vague? If the book it trying to confirm that Dyas ordered the clones, why doesn't it just say they viewed the hologram recordings?

With the flat out refusal for the book to confirm via a picture or hologram or video recording that Dyas ordered the clones, I don't think it's equally likely. I think the book is purposely vague and unable to confirm it that way because it wasn't Dyas at all. It was Sidious. And if the Kaminoans identify someone who looks like Sidious and not Dyas as Dyas, then the Jedi now can truly suspect dark dealings even if they can't yet identify the human under the clasp and cloak.

 

The phrase "especially since" implied that what followed was an independent point. The numerical mechanics of the war don't reinforce any "theory"; they simply are what they are. Plot-wise, there is no plot to destroy the Jedi at this point, as far as the Jedi know. You only know about it due to foreknowledge on the part of the audience.

That makes no sense at all. If the book confirmed it, the two scenarios would no longer be equally likely. Without that, they are equally likely ( under the argument referencing Sidious' characterization ) in that one is no less sinister than the other.

However, that is nothing more than wishful thinking, because it didn't happen that way. You can't make a case against the Jedi by fabricating events ( and associated Jedi negligence ) which did not take place.

See above.

 

I believe Dooku suggests to the separatists that the Jedi will be overwhelmed by the droid army. Then proceeds later to overwhelm them with the droid army. That's at least one plot they know of to destroy them in some capacity.

So if there's the possibility of a Sith controlling the Senate, a motive for providing an army is to keep the Jedi in the field of battle to be destroyed by the guy that wants to overwhelm them. There's only a finite number of them.

You said that Sifo-Dyas ordering the clones was as equally likely as Sidious ordering the clones. I say I don't think it's equally likely because I don't believe the book is saying Dyas ordered the clones at all. Thus only one scenario is likely in my view. I think intentional vagueness regarding Dyas not being able to be identified by the Kaminoans and thus confirmed as the the person who ordered the clones is meant to lead you into the belief that Sidious ordered the clones. Same with the vague description of the initial contact record.

I didn't say it happened that way. That was my explanation as to why the author did not confirm Dyas ordering the clones via visual identification. The easiest way to do so if Dyas truly ordered the clones. Because Dyas didn't order the clones and Sidious did.

 

That's the problem: you see your own interpretation as the only likely one. What I said was that Sifo being killed because he knew too much is at least as likely as Sifo not knowing anything and being killed as a patsy. Again, to say that the book didn't prove that Sifo ordered the clones and thus only one scenario is likely makes no sense. It is only the lack of definitive proof that allows for the two alternatives in the first place. If the book had in fact proven Sifo's involvement beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be only one alternative, just as there would only be one alternative if the book had conclusively disproved his involvement. Since the book allows for the possibility that he ordered the clones, it is really no less likely than the all-Sidious theory. Don't forget that the book makes it a point to mention Sifo's established penchant for precognitive visions and portents of the future.

That is only an opinion and not proven anywhere. Yoda most likely had reason to assume that the evidence he found supported Sifo's involvement. In other words, there was undoubtedly more there than the kind of data which could simply be chalked up to identity theft, or else he would probably not have stated the conclusion that he did.

I think this was something he saw as necessary to fit his understanding of AOTC.

 

I believe Sidious ordering the clones to be the most likely and not equally likely to Dyas actually being involved. There might be some wiggle room for Dyas actually being involved, but I don't think based on what is written in the EU and more importantly what happens in the film that it amounts to being equally likely.

As for the visions Dyas is prone to have, that fits with why Sidious chose him to be the victim of Dooku's test. He wasn't going to choose a Jedi who tends to be wrong about everything and couldn't tie his shoes. Instead he picks one that perhaps could have had the foresight to create such an army 10 years in advance.

Well that is your opinion but there's certainly room for doubt. What sort of "record" is it that points to Dyas initially contacting the Kaminoans? All we know is that it can't be visual. If it's written then we know that could be forged. It all rests on Yoda not being wrong and yet during the same conversation with Obi-Wan he's coming to the wrong conclusions about Dooku's involvement in the grand scheme of things.

 

Regardless of whatever suspicions they harbored or did not harbor, the Jedi really had no choice in the matter. Because their mandate put them under the authority of the Senate, they had no choice but to accept and lead the clones in a military action against the Separatists. They could refuse the Senate's order. But they would find themselves in a great deal of trouble within the Republic and very unpopular. Or should I say even more unpopular? By placing themselves directly under the authority of a group of politicians, the Jedi placed themselves into a situation that eventually (and not surprisingly) resulted in bad consequences for them.

 

However, that goes both ways. If Sifo-Dyas "perhaps could have had the foresight to create such an army 10 years in advance", then perhaps he actually did do that. The plausibility of the idea doesn't somehow only support the all-Sidious theory. If it's plausible that Sifo may have done it, it's plausible that Sifo may have done it.

We know that the Kaminoans didn't see him. That doesn't necessarily mean that there was no visual data available to Yoda. The idea that an impostor was responsible was already out there, even expressed in AOTC to some extent, and surely Yoda is intended to be intelligent enough to have at least considered that possibility. Yet by LOE he seems convinced for whatever reason that Sifo himself played a role. I tend to think that if the situation had really still been as ambiguous as it was in AOTC, Yoda would have indicated as much.

 

What I am doing is arguing that the films left a quite important plot unresolved and this makes the Jedi look incompetent, along with many other things that do. Most of the arguements I get back is "the EU explains it" which does not cut it for me. The films have to be able to stand on their own and not require some book to explain it.

There is equal, in other words NONE, evidence FOR or AGAINST an investigation. So based on that alone it is 50/50 wheter the Jedi did anyhting or not. Second, the clone army plot is very important in both AotC and RotS and they are the means by which the Jedi are destroyed. So it is not some unimportant little trivia, who actually ordered it is quite significant. Third, the Jedi are killed by an army and they are taken TOTALLY by suprise, given all the fishy things they knew about the clone army this makes them seem like morons. It would be like US inteligence, under the days of the Cold War, hiering a know communist, Stalin supporter and on the payroll of the KGB and then getting suprised when he betrays them. Lastly, the most logical conclusion the Jedi can make after AotC is that the war is fake and that they are being manipulated by someone with a sisnister purpose. What they should have done is keep the clone army at arms lenght and be more cautions. Refusing to fight would be unwise but equally unwise is to accept a clone army surrounded by so many question marks.

This issue have been talked about many times before and I have been told many times that the audience should a) assume that an investigation DID take place and b) this investigation showed that Obi-Wan was 100% WRONG, Sifo-Dyas was NOT dead when the army was ordered, he DID order it and died sometime after. In essence the opposite of what the film told us.

 

Nordom, it is your subjective personal opinion that the Jedi "look incompetent", based on your misinterpretation of events and your refusal to consider any other explanation. The EU is for details only; you don't have to consult the EU to explain this, because it is reasonable to conclude that the Jedi vetted the Clones. Given the choice between a) the Jedi are stupid fools and b) the Jedi conducted an investigation which turned up nothing, I for one am going with b. You're going with a, and that's your decision to make.

I have never said it was a trivial matter, I'm not sure where you're getting that. Your Stalinist analogy fails because the Jedi have direct, on-going physical evidence that the Clones are not on Dooku's side: namely, the Clone Wars. Your "logical conclusion that the war is fake" has the benefit of hindsight and of knowing that Tyrannus = Dooku. The Jedi lack those essential elements, and their vision is obscured by the Dark Side, which ours is not.

a) is the only logical conclusion we may draw. b) is a straw man argument, or at best someone else's argument, not mine. In the films the timeline of S-D's death and the ordering of the army is left ambiguous. My take on the question is as I stated upthread:

Kenobi has an "impression" about the timeline of S-D's death, not a certainty; and since there is no evidence either for or against that impression, it stands as an uncertainty as far as the Jedi investigation is concerned. You can continue to draw certainty from ambiguity all you like, but I'm not buying what you're selling. Even if it were a known fact that S-D died before the Clones were ordered, this does not remove his involvement since he (S-D) might have hired Tyrannus to do the job, then died before Tyrannus ordered the clones. This is what happened, of course, but it only has nefarious consequences if we know Dooku = Tyrannus, which Kenobi does not.

I'll readily concede that viewers come away with questions about S-D and the timeline of events. That's intentional on the part of the script. It's left ambiguous on purpose, so naturally viewers will have lingering questions.

What I will not concede is the idea that these questions certify the Jedi as incompetent. They conducted an investigation between films, and turned up nothing. Yoda stated his intentions to look into the matter, and behold! three years later they're still using the Clones. I wonder if Yoda looked into the matter as he stated he intended to do at the end of the last movie? Me: Yes, he did, and turned up nothing. You: No, he didn't, the Jedi are stupid.

Think as you like. The explanations are there and you refuse to see them.

 

This is what I see and hear happen, the Jedi get handed a hugely suspicious army that has more red flags than the Soviet Union and yet they use it and later it turns on them and destroys them. This does not make them look very smart to me. Combined with several other instances of the Jedi being less than bright paints an overall image of the Jedi being quite dim.

You made the remark that only someone who is a detail spotter would notice this and it would take many viewings to do so. In essence that is saying that this is a minor or trivial matter as most will not notice it. I do not agree.

So because someone fights your enemies they are always friends? This must be what prevented Nazi Germany from atacking Russia after the Molotov-Ribentrop pact. Oh wait it didn't, they still attacked. The US and Russia were allies during the later part of WW2 so this must then have stopped them from stockpiling huge numbers of nuclear weapons to be used against the other. Oh wait, it didn't, they still did that.

Just because they fight Dooku?s forces then there is no way they can be trouble? Have you never heard of spies, infiltrators, double agents or undercover cops? When you want to infiltrate a group or organization you quite often pose as a friend or as someone useful. You do some favors to get in and be trusted.

The Jedi know that the Sith were behind the Naboo war and they also know that they are involved in the Clone war. So do the Sith have anything to gain by throwing the galaxy into war? Quite obviously yes, one, it will weaken the jedi as many of them will get killed, two, it will weaken the galaxy as a whole and spread fear and mistrust. The Sith have much to gain from a long war and the Jedi know it so why would it be so unreasonable for the jedi to suspect that the sith are playing both sides here? Who has gained anything from the Naboo war and now the clone war? Well Palpatine is the obvious answer. He has gone from just a senator to chancellor to chancellor with almost unlimited powers. This does not prove that he is involved but it is enough to suspect it.
Mostly it seems like the Jedi's ability to THINK is what is impaired.

Do we have any reason to think that Obi-Wan is wrong? No. Do we have any reason to doubt him? No again. So why assume that what he says is irrelevant for no reason? Your way to randomly ignore what the characters say for no reason does not wash with me. What info does the writer/director try to get across? Two choices, either Sifo-Dyas DID order the army or he did NOT. If the film is trying to convey the former then I would say it has done a poor job at it. So the latter then. Obi-Wan's words are still evidence no matter how you slice it and his words can only be disproven BY the films. Since this does not happen then his words stand. The issue anyway is to show that the Jedi have reason to doubt Sifo-Dyas involvement and to show that something is fishy about the clone army, which it does.

 

Nordom, you and I (as Vortigern99) have been having this debate for almost ten years now. You have your view and I have mine. I have no interest in continuing to post and re-post the same views, opinions, observations, facts and quotes over and over again ad infinitum. All the points you've raised are legitimate and valid, but I and others here have rebutted them with our own explanations, points and clarifications time and again. At the end of the day, you choose to ignore our clarifications, and to see the Jedi as incompetent. We do not.

If there is any failure to disclose key points to illuminate the audience, it lies with the script of ROTS, not AOTC. I am finished with this debate. MTFBWY.

 

But only one of the two is remotely capable of funding such an army based on what we're told of the Jedi in the films.

Yet when Obi-Wan asks Yoda point blank in this book if Dyas ordered the clone army, Yoda nods and says "contacted the Kaminoans, he did" and "but exists, a record of his initial contact."

Initial contact does not equal ordered the clone army. Is he saying Dyas ordered the army because he made initial contact? Why is this so purposely vague? Why couldn't the author accurately describe the evidence? Then the author makes sure to note that the Kaminoans never saw Dyas. Why even go this route? All he had to do is say the security footage shows Dyas ordering the clones and maybe even throw in Taun We recalling their meeting with her describing Dyas. If it truly was Dyas, this shouldn't be a problem to write and directly confirm.

You add in the motive for Sidious choosing Dyas, the idea that Dyas couldn't possibly fund this on his own so why order what you can't pay for, and the movie casting doubt on Dyas being involved and it doesn't seem like Dyas doing it is equal to that of Sidious.

 

Just thought I's stop in here and say I've enjoyed reading this civil debate in this thread as it's continued.

Keep it real.

 

The whole thing would've made alot more sense if it was Palpatine and the Senate that deployed the clone army to Geonosis, not Yoda.

 

Would it have? Can you explain why you think this?

I perceive it as important to establish that the Jedi are in control of the Clones as military leaders, hence the "General Kenobi" thing from the OT.

 

Instead of making Yoda and the Council extremely short sighted, they could've easily just had it that the use of the Kamino clone army was entirely an action by Palpatine, demonstrating the influence he's gaining over the government. They could've had that scene where Yoda and Mace discuss the clone army take place in the Chancellor's office, where they are objecting to utilizing it, but the Chancellor supports the idea, and his decision overrides theirs. Think of that scene in the Clone Wars microseries where Palpatine wants Anakin to assume command over the space forces during the Muunilist campaign, while Obi-Wan and Yoda voice their objection to it.

Instead, Yoda just kind of off handedly says "Look at this clone army, I will" and then utilizes it.

 

I just don't see things that way. The disconnect seems to occur at the point where Yoda goes to "look at this clone army". What do you imagine Yoda does on Kamino? I picture him examining all the same information Kenobi has already reported, thereby verifying that yes, according to the cloners' records, Master S-D did indeed order the clones (perhaps via an agent named Tyranus).

This scenario doesn't make the Jedi "short-sighted" in the slightest. It means Yoda vetted the Clones' origins and is satisfied with what he found. The initial usage of the Clone Army may be risky, based on certain unknown factors (namely why S-D ordered the army), but Yoda decides to take that risk.

On Geonosis, Yoda's confidence in the Clones proves well-founded. The Clones fight off Dooku's forces, thereby proving their loyalty to the Jedi.

The rest of the War is marked by on-going, irrefutable evidence of the Clones' loyalty. They fight and die against Dooku, for and under the Jedi. This incontestable proof of the Clones' fealty is reinforced in every single battle vs. Dooku's droids. This continuing stream of in-coming evidence establishes beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Clones are reliable. Any doubts the Jedi had at the inception of the War are controverted by this daily, minute-by-minute proof of the Clones' obeisance.

For this reason it's unnecessary to show Palpatine demanding the Jedi use the army. Putting the decision in the hands of the Jedi renders Palpatine's plot all the more insidious.

 

^ Insidious... nice.

 

Before he turned to the dark side, Dooku was a Jedi with access to wealth. The Republic contains various wealthy interests. It's not assumed that Sifo planned to use his own funds.

According to Sidious, it does. When telling Dooku of this same exact initial contact, he calls it "the order for the army".

How do you know there's anything inaccurate in what the author described? I think you should be using a different word here, like "exhaustively".

As I already said, because the author apparently assumed that that route was necessary to maintain consistency with AOTC.

A possibility which would be entirely consistent with what he did say.

Maybe in a flashback from Sifo POV, which would have departed from the timeframe of the rest of the book due to his deadness and as such wouldn't remotely fit the author's style. But the Kaminoans seeing Sifo wouldn't ultimately prove the matter as conclusively as you seem to imply. The anti-Sifo camp could just say that the "appearance" of Sifo was faked using technology.

 

Even if the audience ignored the detail about Jedi possessions being forbidden, it would be difficult to believe one mans personal fortune could pay for a galactic sized army that is armed, trained and comes with vehicles.

So that leaves Dyas going to various wealthy interests within the republic...and somehow keeping this army secret. Unless now you're saying Dyas planned on stealing the money or was in a position where he could steal that much money or manipulate it like Sidious could and funnel it towards his secret army while having the best intentions at heart.

Yoda is basing his answer on a vague "record of initial contact." The book does not say Sidious is using this same record to jump to that conclusion.

"This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand..."

He then proceeds to get Dooku to kill Dyas as a test of his loyalty to the Sith. Making it sound like he set Dyas up to be a patsy or a fall guy.

I think he'd have to give at least a bit more detail on what type of record it is to get anywhere near "exhaustively." Like saying the record was written, verbal, or visual. But he doesn't even go that far. Unless you add in where he points out that the Kaminoans never saw Dyas.

With your theory that Taun We was going to call Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas? The Kaminoans never suggest in the films that they've never seen Dyas.

But he didn't and instead left plenty of room for doubt. Leaving it rest on Yoda interpreting this vaguely described record correctly. Unless the reader is meant to believe Yoda doesn't make mistakes or could be led astray by something not being what it appears to be in a book called Labyrinth of Evil.

Only if he was concealing his face. But in confirming Dyas, you don't have to say he concealed his face. You can say Taun We or Lama Su spoke to him with his hood down and could fully identify Dyas and have Yoda review the footage of Dyas landing and speaking in the office or something. But why go that route when you're absolutely trying to confirm it was Dyas? It's better to just say the Kaminoans never saw Dyas and a vaguely described "record of initial contact" means he ordered the clones. No room for doubt because Yoda can't be wrong or played false. Certainly not by the Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

The Jedi are faced with a staggering amount of fishy things with the clone army and several of them they seemingly do not notice or comment on. They have more than enough evidence to suspect that the war is fake and that they are being played and yet they never do. Then in the next film the clone army kills them and they never saw it coming. With all the warning signs they had, it is hard to view them as anything but dimwitted. Even after Mace learns that Palpatine is a Sith and could kill all Jedi with a single command, he does not warn any of his fellow Jedi.

Excpet this is not a logical reasoning based on what the film tells us. How are we to assume this? If Obi-Wan is correct and nothing in the film suggests otherwise, then Sifo-Dyas was dead when the army was ordered and thus the army was ordered under a FALSE name. Since the army is for the republic and if this Tyrannus is clean then why wouldn't he use his own name?
Far simpler and logical is that Sifo-Dyas had nothing at all to do with the army and this Tyrannus used his name as a cover. Since we also know that Tyrannus is Dooku then the simple answer is that Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas and ordered the army. If the Jedi did investigate then this is the likely conclusion they would make.

As for the clones loyalty;
1) The Jedi knows that the clone will follow ANY order without question. So if they are told to slaughter babies, they will slaugther babies. So if Palpatine gives the order to kill all Jedi the clones will obey. So the question of trust is more about if they trust Palpatine.
2) Infiltrators, spies or double agents will be of use to you to make you trust them, that does not make an betrayal impossible. Have the Jedi never ever encountered a situation where someone was playing one side false? The Jedi have a current example, Dooku. Sure he left the order but the Jedi still had a high opinion of him and did not think he could do bad things. They were wrong.

Regards
Nordom