PT AOTC -- Major Flaw in the Entire Plot

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Green_Destiny_Sword, Jul 22, 2011.

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  1. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    I'm trying to figure out where you stand on this. I inquired if you believed Dyas planned on stealing the money to pay for the clones and you answered. Then I asked if Sifo-Dyas has numerous co-conspirators based on that above statement and you ignored it. So I ask again. Based on that statement, are you saying Sifo-Dyas had numerous co-conspirators? That's all.






    If you agree that it goes both ways, then what was written there is not confirmation of Dyas ordering the clones or not ordering the clones. I can live with that. :D





    You're conceding the possibility that Dyas was manipulated by the Dark Lord into doing his bidding? So there are more scenarios suggesting that Sidious was more involved in the creation of the army than Sidious simply hijacking a plan in progress.







    Well at least you and I both agree that there is a lack of conclusive evidence regarding Dyas ordering the clones. There's common ground to be found!




    You said order means contact and I substituted the word for the two times Yoda uses "contact" in reference to Dyas. You were just being selective in regards to which contact you replace with order. ;)





    But where would this footage have come from if indeed it was footage? If you're the author trying to confirm it was Dyas, why be so vague? Why tell us the Kaminoans never saw Dyas. There was no point in writing that when the films did not contradict that specific detail excluding the point about him being dead before the order was placed though.



  2. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    You said "In 2002 we had no specific reason to assume that Obi-Wan was necessarily wrong. By 2005 the situation was different. "

    If you did NOT read this book and ONLY have seen the films, how is the situation different?
    If the movie AotC does not provide any specific reason to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong and since RotS never says anything about this issue why then should we suddenly assume that Obi-Wan is wrong?

    What we know is that you don't want to accept what Obi-Wan says because is destroys your argument so you keep trying to ignore it. But untill you can find movie evidence that shows that Obi-Wan is wrong or misinformed then his statement stands.

    Again you argue that what a character says is not enough evidence, it has to be proven correct. So then there is no evidence that Luke is Anakins son or that the senate was disbanded in ANH or that the republic has been around for 1000 years/generations and so on.
    This reasoning is absurd and only serves to make any dialogue useless.
    If we apply this reasoning on the novel that talks about S-D and the order. We are never SHOWN the ordering taking place, all we hear is Palpatine and Yoda talking about it. So if Obi-Wans words is not enough then neither are Yodas and Palpatines. So then the novel does not provide any proof that S-D ordered the army.

    Also if Obi-wan is correct then S-D can not have ordered the clone army as he was already dead. If Obi-Wan is wrong that still does not prove that S-D DID order the army, it just makes it possible.
    Also Obi-Wans words are not the only evidence, Jango does not know S-D's name and we later learn that he was hired by Dooku. Another strike against the idea that S-D ordered the army.

    1) "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost ten years ago". Evidence that shows that Obi-Wan knows that S-D is dead and also when he died. Moving on.

    2) "They say that Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army, at the request of the senate, almost ten years ago.." Evidence that Obi-Wan knows the date the clone army was ordered and given his words of "They say.." the They in this instance would be the Kamino people. So he was told this date by the Kamino people.

    So Obi-Wan knows both the date that Sifo-Dyas died and the date when the clone army was ordered.
    Want to argue that Obi-Wan got any of these dates wrong then you have to provide MOVIE proof of that.
    Since the film never shows that Obi-Wan is wrong or that he got bad info then his statement stands.

    Since only someone who has read some book would know about S-D special skills you are once again showing how the movies can not stand on their own. For the regular audience S-D is just some Jedi we never see.
    Second, Yoda says "Always in motion is the future" and neither he nor Obi-Wan could see what would happen to Han and Leia and these events were only days away. Also in TPM S-D would have been alive and if he did have these special skills then he would have seen the TF attack on Naboo along with other things but he didn't.
    So the ability to see this far into the future with this kind of accuracy is NOT established by the films. And again if S-D saw it, since there are many thousands of other Jedi and at least SOME other Jedi would have seen it.

    Regards
    Nordom
  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Also if Obi-wan is correct then S-D can not have ordered the clone army as he was already dead. If Obi-Wan is wrong that still does not prove that S-D DID order the army, it just makes it possible.
    Also Obi-Wans words are not the only evidence, Jango does not know S-D's name and we later learn that he was hired by Dooku. Another strike against the idea that S-D ordered the army.



    Obi-Wan never knew the exact date of when Sifo-Dyas had ordered the clone army. He told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas had died "nearly ten years ago". And he was told by Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas had ordered the clone army ten years ago. There was time for Sifo-Dyas to order the clone army before his death.
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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The point is that you similarly assume that Obi-Wan is right, even though there is no proof of that contention.

    Wrong. I'm not ignoring it in any way; in fact, I have repeatedly cited what Obi-Wan said about his impression. What I'm not doing is pretending that first impressions are always right ( a rule which holds nowhere else in the universe and was invented for the express purpose of finding imaginary fault with the PT ) or that the film proved or established either conclusion.

    According to your Nordom-invented rules which quite conveniently allow only your interpretation to be correct.

    You're making an invalid comparison between Yoda's conclusion and Obi-Wan's impression. Yoda's conclusion is based on further evidence that he examined in an investigation.

    That is in no way a "strike" against Sifo's involvement. In the view promoted by one reading of LOE, Sifo is simply killed before Jango is sent to Kamino. Sifo's involvement in the project came to a premature ( from his POV ) end.

    Finding a body ( if that even applies here ) does not automatically mean that one knows the exact time of death.

    Still just an assumption. The main point here is that we have two events that occurred at roughly the same time. Assumption that one necessarily occurred before the other is not backed up by any proof given in the film.
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  5. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    So we have the "Let's ignore what the characters say for no reason" rule.

    To start with Obi-Wan never says "FIRST impression" so again you are making stuff up. Obi-Wan says "I was under the impression.." which is defined as "to think or understand a particular stated thing" So it is another way of saying "It was my understanding that.." or "I was told that.."

    Second, taking what the characters in a film says as being correct unless we have reason to belive otherwise is a pretty common thing. Or do you always watch films and always disbelive everything that is said unless it is shown to be correct? You are the one with made up rules here, your rule of "Let's ignore what Obi-Wan says in this instance for no reason". Obi-Wan knowns more than we do and he says that SD was dead when the army was ordered. Could he be wrong? Yes. Do we have reason to ASSUME that he is wrong? No. So since we have no reason to doubt it we have to accept it as correct UNTILL we have reason to think otherwise. The films do not provide any such reason, even you admit this.

    Lastly, what info does AotC try convey? If AotC is trying to tell the audience "Yes Sifo-Dyas did order the army" then why include lines that say the exact opposite?
    So if this is what the film was trying to achive then there is a very real and legitimate criticism against it. If that isn't what the film was trying to convey and instead wanted there to be a mystery about WHO ordered the army then the lack of follow up is another very real and legitimate criticism.

    No just basic scientific principles, you can not throw out or ignore evidence for no reason.
    These discussions work on the same principle, you argue your case and you find evidence to support it. My argument is that SD did not order the army because he was already dead. The evidence is Obi-Wans statement and others things. If you want to argue that SD DID order the army then it contradicts what Obi-Wan says so you MUST prove Obi-Wan wrong.

    Obi-Wans statement can be shown to be incorrect for sure but that would require EVIDENCE and EVIDENCE from the films, not just your say so.
    Even you agree "In 2002 we had no specific reason to assume that Obi-Wan was necessarily wrong"
    So you admit that IN the film AotC we are not given any reason to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong.
    Since RotS says nothing at all about this then still have no reason to assume that he is wrong.


    Your arguement is that what any a character says can not be taken as being correct unless there is additional proof. So ANY dialogue that is not shown to be correct gets thrown out. This is your own logic here.


    Again you bring up LOE and agin you show how weak the film is and how it can not stand on it's own.
    Anyone who has NOT read LOE would not know any of this. All we know is that according to Obi-Wan SD was dead when the army was ordered and the army template has never heard of him.


    [quote=A
  6. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    We never see of hear Lama Su tell Obi-Wan when the army was ordered. What we do hear is this;
    Obi-Wan says "They say that master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army, at the request of the senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

    The they here must be the Kamino people so Obi-Wan has been told a date but why assume that this date was not exact? The date the army was ordered would be known to the Kamino people so why assume that they did not simply tell him this? If he only got a vague date and he had just been told NOT to assume anything then it very sloppy of Obi-Wan to assume something he no basis for.

    Regards
    Nordom

  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As I said several times, that was apparently said in LOE because the author assumed it was implied by AOTC.

    You think? [face_laugh] We still have two events happening "almost ten years ago" without any further specific information on dates.

    That's the whole point. How do the Jedi know that Sifo-Dyas is dead? Was he killed right in front of them?

    It doesn't matter. The "stand on its own" argument does not mean you can magically convert a situation of ambiguity into an assumed certainty. What LOE depicts is consistent with the film and thus the information presented in the film does not remove LOE's timeline as a possibility.

    I'm arguing that first impressions are not always correct. The fact remains that Yoda finds credible information which contradicts Obi-Wan's first impression. I long ago conceded that the book does not conclusively prove a specific outcome, but the point is that in light of Yoda's investigation Obi-Wan's first impression is certainly no more likely to be accurate than Yoda's ultimate conclusion in LOE.

    Except he wasn't necessarily dead then, and was supposedly alive at that point according to Palpatine in EU ( which explains why the Jedi conspicuously decline to ever state that the army was definitely ordered by an impostor, since they are presented with the same ambiguity as everyone else ). You haven't succeeded in proving that he was dead at that point, because a first impression by someone who hadn't seen all the evidence in no way qualifies as proof.

    Is that like the "let's ignore what Lucas said to James Luceno" rule?

    But I also said that we had no specific reason to assume that he was necessarily right. It goes both ways. You keep trying to change a first impression into a certainty, but it's not working. First impressions can be wrong in any universe. SW gets no special exemption from this.
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  8. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Obi-Wan knows both the dates, as evidenced by the movie, and according to him one event happened before the other.
    Also, if SD died 5th of February 2001 and the clone army was ordered 3rd of April 2001 both those dates are "Almost ten years ago" and yet one is clearly before the other and makes SD ordering the army impossible because he had been dead for almost two months.
    Since the SW films have not established any kind of calender, like Star Treks "Star Dates", getting an exact date would be kind of hard.

    Possibly, he could have been killed in battle where other Jedi were present, he could have been on a ship that blew up or he was poisoned at dinner, there are many possibilities.
    All we can say for sure is that he did not die of natural causes as Obi-Wan used the word "Killed". So you ASSUME that the Jedi just found his dead body but there is no certainty for that being the case.
    Second, IF the date of SD death is when the Jedi found his body, THEN he could have killed BEFORE that. So that moves his death even further back in time which puts an even greater distance between it and the ordering of the clone army. If the Jedi found his body nine years and 11 months ago but his death was earlier then he could have died ten years and three months ago. So more than "almost ten years ago".


    It does matter because the OP was about a flaw IN AotC, the movie. What happens outside the films is not relevant UNLESS that info is present IN the film/films.
    So what the FILMS have to say about the matter is what is important. If the films are made with the intent that the audience MUST have read some book for the plot to make sense then the films have not done their job.


    Was what Lucas said to Luceno IN the film? No. So since the OP was about a flaw IN the film AotC then whatever Lucas said to Luceno is not relevent here.
    Also IF Lucas wanted the audience to know what he said to Luceno then he should have put it IN the movie. If RotS was made with the intent that the audience should be 100% sure that SD DID order the army then the movies have not done their job. And that is a flaw IN the films, which is what is under discussion here.



    As I told you before but you apparently ignored, we are NOT dealing with any FIRST impression here. Obi-Wan never uses the phrase "First impression" in the scenes in question. So you are again just making stuff up in order to argue your point.
    Obi-Wan says "I was under the impression.." which is defined as "to think or understand a particular stated thing" So it is another way of saying "It was my understanding that.." or "I was told that.."
    So no first impression, even the films disprove your argument.
    Obi-Wan already knows when SD died, so that is nothing new to him. Then he gets told a date for when the army was ordered and that date was, according to Obi-Wan, AFTER SD's death. This makes SD ordering the army impossible as h
  9. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    So you're sticking to the author making a mistake? As we know, AOTC never said the Kaminoans never saw Sifo-Dyas nor never met him. It's a convenient answer that the author simply made an error. Otherwise he did it deliberately. If he did it deliberately then it's not consistent with trying to confirm that Dyas ordered the clones. It needlessly knocks out security footage and eye witness testimony from the Kaminoans.






    Also, I'm still curious as to how you think Syfo-Dyas planned on paying for the army.

    The audience leaves AOTC with the idea that Dyas was dead before the order was placed and that he was a Jedi/monk who couldn't possibly have afforded to pay for that army as if one man could. Nor was he in any financial or political position to secretly shift other peoples funds (legally or illegally) towards it.

    You mentioned something about the Republic having "various wealthy interests" but that implies Dyas had numerous co-conspirators lined up to commit treason. Not that that scenario has ever been implied anywhere. So once again, are you saying that Dyas had numerous co-conspirators?
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Uh, no, I never said that. If that was the author's reasoning, I agree with it. "We were beginning to think you weren't coming."

    We are dealing with an impression, and impressions are not always right, in fictional universes or real ones.

    Does it indicate writer intent? Yes. Does it depict a possible scenario which is consistent with the film? Yes.

    And the films leave the situation ambiguous, confirming none of the alternatives.

    Strawman.

    Lack of certainty is the whole point. Lack of certainty goes both ways, it doesn't just work for you. None of the hypothetical death scenarios you listed are certain either.

    The movie proves no such thing:

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  11. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    Arawn Fenn, is there a reason why you've blatantly ignored my question regarding Dyas and co-conspirators yet again? This is the fourth time I've brought it up in as many posts and you've yet to explain your statement "the Republic has various wealthy interests." I'd find it hard to believe you've simply missed the question. So based on your statement, are you of the belief that Sifo-Dyas had numerous co-conspirators in the creation of the clone army?








    That doesn't at all mean she thought Obi-Wan was Dyas. That just means she recognizes a Jedi when she sees one. Like TC-14 in TPM or the waitress droid a few scenes earlier or Anakin in to Qui-Gon or Tion Medon on Utapau in ROTS. Only the Kaminoans are expecting the Jedi Order or some Republic Officials to come pick up the clones soon since they're ready. There's nothing in AOTC that suggests the Kaminoans have never seen Sifo-Dyas.
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The entire Jedi order isn't expected to arrive in one big ship. What gave the author the idea that the Kaminoans never saw Sifo-Dyas was how Obi-Wan was greeted: He is anxious to meet you. After all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming. You may disregard it, but that seems to be the implication. Thus the author's stating the Kaminoans never saw him is a function of consistency with AOTC as he sees it, not an indication that Sifo ordering the clones can be casually thrown out.
  13. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    For a theory to be scientific it must be possible to prove it wrong.
    Even cold facts can be wrong. For a long time many people thought that Earth was at the centre of the Universe or that it was flat. Both these things were proven wrong.
    For a long time people though that the Earth was about 6000 years old, that was proven incorrect. The important word here is "PROVEN", to show something as wrong you need PROOF.

    The phrase "I was under the IMPRESIION" has a very different meaning than the phrase "My FIRST impression was..". The former is defined as to think or understand a particular stated thing while the latter is someone giving their opinion about something after an initial meeting. So Obi-Wan has knowledge of the date when SD died and the date when the clone army was ordered. Could either of them be wrong? Yes, pretty much ANYTHING can be disproven. Do we have any reason to think that they are wrong? No.
    Either Obi-Wan is right or he is wrong. If we have no reason to assume that he is wrong then he is right.

    In this instance intent is not very relevant UNLESS it is IN the movie. Why? Because the OP found a flaw WITH the movie, what is outside the movie is not important. Lucas INTENDED to have more of the Wampas but the effects did not look good so much of it was dropped. Lucas INTENDED to have Obi-Wan in a much larger role in TPM but later he changed his mind.
    The films must stand on their own, if reading of a book is required then the films have not done their job.


    Incorrect. Obi-Wan knows BOTH dates and according to him SD died before the army was ordered. Since the movies never proves him wrong, his statement stands.
    Combined with other info the situation is quite clear. Dooku/Palpatine killed SD, Dooku posed as him when ordering the clone army, he recruited Jango and then delted the Kamino file. Simple and fits all avaliable evidence. So it is not very hard to put the pieces together, except for the Jedi who apparently can't put two and two together.
    In any event YOU are not arguing for uncertainty or ambiguity, you argue that it is 100% clear that SD DID order the army and the Jedi knows this full well and that is why they use the army. But since NONE of this is IN the movie we get the flaw the OP talked about, the Jedi use an army that they don't know who ordered it.


    No very relevant, the OP found a flaw with the movie. You keep refering to EU to explain away this flaw. So the only way to correct this flaw is to read some book. If the movies are made to be stand alone then the flaw remains as reading the book is not assumed.
    If reading of the book IS assumed then the movies do NOT stand alone.

    YOU made the argument that there was uncertainty in Obi-Wans knowledge of SD's death. So YOU have to provide proof of this. Untill you do then the fact remains, Obi-Wan KNOWS when SD died, as evidence by the movie.


    Yes it does, that you don't want to accept it does not change that.
    Obi-Wan knows both dates as evidenced by his dialogue. Want to argue otherwise, PROVE HIM WRONG.

    Regards
    Nordom
  14. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Other questions that appear are: the person that placed the order claimed to act on orders from the Senate. Since the senate never gave any such order this makes this person a liar and not to mention a lawbreaker. Is this how a Jedi Master acts? Spreading lies and deceit and breaking the law? Sounds more like what a sith would do?

    Second, why didn't Sifo-Dyas say anything about his dire visions to any of the other Jedi?
    It would not hurt to warn them and suggest the idea of a clone army. He was on the council after all, so his words would have some weigth.

    Third, how come Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas? I know he was hired by Dooku but didn't he have to give some info to the Kamino people when he came there? "I am here to be the template of the army that Sifo-Dyas ordered." Or for that matter, didn't ANY of the Kamino people mention his name to Jango? He's been there for almost ten years.
    It would make sense for Dooku to brief Jango on Sifo-Dyas name so Jango would be better prepared.

    Fourth, Obi-Wan acts a little odd, when Lama Su first mentions Sifo-Dyas, Obi-Wan seems like he has never heard the name before but a few seconds later he knows full well who he is, that he is dead and also when he died. Possibly this is because during the initial shoot, Lama Su said Sido-Dyas and there was no such Jedi so Obi-Wans confusion makes sense. Then some bits of this scene was reshot, including the bit where Obi-Wans says "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed..". So the first bit is Obi-Wan reacting to a different name than the one he speaks about.

    Regards
    Nordom


  15. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Arawn Fenn, in a debate it is considered a dodge if you continually ignore an opponents question.

    Either address it with a counter argument, concede the point, or bow out until you have a response.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This is what Yoda believes, but we know differently. I only know what is given in the book.

    That scenario is irrelevant. It no longer holds in the released film. Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi that Obi-Wan knew of.

    Similarly, for a long time people thought that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed, that was proven incorrect.

    They are both impressions. Impressions do not convey certainty, nor do you have any certainty that Obi-Wan has all the information. You continue to insist that ambiguity equals certainty, but it's not working.

    No, you have to provide proof of the alleged "certainty", which you are unable to do. Obi-Wan's "impression" isn't good enough. I see no reason to assume that Obi-Wan arrived at Kamino with the specific date of Sifo-Dyas' death memorized, or why the Jedi should conspicuously fail to comment on a situation which makes it "certain" that the army was ordered by an impostor.

    So that you can insist on an alternate version of the plot which is inconsistent with that intent.
  17. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6

    So to be clear, that is your response to my question? That being for clarification on you stating "the Republic has various wealthy interests" in relation to how Sifo-Dyas planned on paying for the clones? It sounds more like a response to the choosing of the clone template.

    But I guess there is no explanation given as to how Dyas (without Sidious/Tyranus) could pay for the clones. Theft of that kind of money seemed well out of the realm of that Jedi's capabilities or character given his good intentions and position. Using his own wealth doesn't make sense given that he's a Jedi nor could one man ever possibly have enough to cover such a cost. Lining up numerous investors within the Republic also seems highly unlikely given the secrecy of the project and the idea that these wealthy investors would perform treason on that scale to actually help the Republic. A bit different from the separatists in 10 years using heightened hostilities as an excuse to build droids in secret to harm the Republic and protect themselves by turning to the corporations for financing.

    Ultimately it's just another reason to severely doubt Dyas doing this deed without the orchestrations and ill intent of Sidious at the very least.





    I didn't say the entire Jedi Order nor did you think I meant the Kaminoans expect the entire Jedi order to arrive on one big ship.

    The Kaminoans don't jump back in shock when they hear Obi-Wan Kenobi call himself something other than Sifo-Dyas. It is only Obi-Wan Kenobi who believes the Kaminoans were expecting him specifically (when he first arrives) until he realizes they mean "you" as in a Jedi or Republic representative because the Kaminoans believe the Jedi have ordered a clone army for the Republic. But if you believe the author wrote that sentence in LOE to remind us on what he thought the movie conveyed, then so be it. The Kaminoans having never seen Dyas only adds to Dyas not doing the deed.

  18. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    It is relevant when looking at HOW this plot thread was changed and how well it works or doesn't work.
    Only bits of scenes were re-shot and RotS was to have more about this but didn't. So an important plot thread was changed quite late and then ignored in the next film. This creates a flaw in the films and makes the Jedi seem stupid.

    Not IN the films it wasn't and that is what matters here. The OP was about a flaw IN the film so refering to info outside the film just show that the films does not stand on their own.
    In any event your argument was that impressions can be proven incorrect, facts can likewise be proven incorrect so there is no difference there. But what is required in BOTH cases is some actual EVIDENCE.
    Not just your say so.

    Obi-Wan has ALL of the information because he says so IN the moive.
    OBI-WAN: Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.
    OBI-WAN: (V.O.) Yes, Master. They say a Master Sifo-Dyas
    placed the order for a clone army at the request of the
    Senate almost ten years ago.

    So Obi-Wan knows when Sifo-Dyas died and he knows when the clone army was ordered, proof provided.

    Was Tarkin certain that the senate had been disbanded in ANH? He was told that but he could have misunderstod or been the victim of a joke or he could have been joking with the people on the DS.
    So that COULD be wrong. Do we have ANY reason to think it is? No.
    Was the imperial officer certain when he reported that the rebel base on Dantoine was deserted? Again he was just relaying info, he could have been misinformed or the scouts could have gone to the wrong system.
    But again we have no reason to assume he is wrong so what he says is treated as correct UNTIL we have reason to assume otherwise. It is the same here, we have no reason to assume that Obi-Wan is wrong so his statement stands UNTIL we have reason to think otherwise.

    Very simple, from AotC the movie "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost ten years ago"
    No hesitation or doubts from obi-Wan. Proof provided.
    Now, if you want to argue that Obi-Wan was unsure or that he had unreliable info or that the date of SD's death was unclear, then POST PROOF OR RETRACT. P.P.O.R.
    Second, MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the
    authorization of the Jedi Council
    . Sure sounds like he doesn't think it was Sifo-Dyas either.
    Third, NONE of the Jedi comment on the fact that Jango, the clone army template, works for Dooku.
    Nor do they comment on the connection between the deleted file and the clone army or whoever might have deleted the file. Or that Palpatine now has an army that will do whatever he says. The number of things the Jedi fail to comment on could make a very long list.



    First, if are going to quote me then quote the entire passage.

  19. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Another question that arises is why the Kamino file was deleted?

    The Kamino people knows who the army is for and could contact the senate or the JC at anytime, destroying the plan. So deleting the file will not help here.

    Any Jedi that already knows where Kamino is or finds out by other means is also not stopped by this act.

    The only scenario where the deleting of the file could be of use is either if a Jedi hears something about Kamino and wants to go there or if a Jedi just picks planets at random and goes there. Hardly seems worth the effort.

    Also, how come the jedi seem to know nothing about Kamino? Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda seemed to have heard of the place. And yet we know that they make clone armies and very good ones at that and they have been doing this for some time. These armies would have seen some action and yet the Jedi, guardians of peace and justice, have never encountered them or been curious where they are from.

    If we go with the idea that SD DID order the clone army, did he know about them and if so how?
    If he didn't go there in person and instead just "called" then where did he get the number?
    Did the Jedi file contain more than just the location?

    Regards
    Nordom
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Second, MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the
    authorization of the Jedi Council. Sure sounds like he doesn't think it was Sifo-Dyas either.
    Third, NONE of the Jedi comment on the fact that Jango, the clone army template, works for Dooku.
    Nor do they comment on the connection between the deleted file and the clone army or whoever might have deleted the file. Or that Palpatine now has an army that will do whatever he says. The number of things the Jedi fail to comment on could make a very long list.



    Why would the Jedi suspect that Dooku was behind the Clone Army before Geonoisis? Obi-Wan learned from Jango Fett that someone named Darth Tyrannus was responsible for recruiting the bounty hunter. And Obi-Wan clearly established that not only was Dooku leader of the Separatists, he was behind the creation of a new Droid army on Geonosis. Why would the Jedi assume that Dooku was behind the creation of the clone army, when it is clearly obvious to them that he was behind the creation of a new Droid army for the Separatists? And why would they assume that Jango Fett had been working for Dooku for a decade?
  21. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    That's all in the movie. The movie establishes that Tyranus and Dooku are the smae people at the end. But the jedi never know that Tyranus and Dooku are the same person. We know by the end but the jedi do not.

    It's that simple.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He learned the name Tyranus, not Darth Tyranus.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They could have contacted them, but as it turned out they didn't - for ten years. This might not be an accident. From the script:
    ILNP likes this.
  24. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    I did not say that the Jedi should comment on Jango working for Dooku BEFORE Geonosis, I said they never comment on it AT ALL.

    The Jedi knows that Jango, the clone army template, is also working for Dooku, the leader of the seps.
    That is fishy. Jango says he was hired by someone called Tyrannus and has never heard of the jedi that supposedly ordered the clone army he is working on. This Jedi is dead and from what Obi-Wan says, was killed BEFORE the army was ordered. Then the planet where the clone army is made has been deleted from the Jedi files and only a Jedi could do this. So someone posed as a dead Jedi and this someone also deleted the file. Only a jedi could have done the latter and would be ideal for the former. Dooku is a former Jedi so he could have deleted the file and he could also have posed as Sifo-Dyas. And Jango works for him. All of this is enough for the jedi to SUSPECT that Dooku be involved with the clone army.

    Regards
    Nordom

  25. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    You're missing one important part: motive. The Jedi believe Dooku is a political idealist who left the order due to corruption. So they think he's a tried and true seppy.
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