AOTC: Oscar nominations

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Master-Luke, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    " Why not? You ask the same question of the Separatists."

    how difficult can it be? once again I will explain:

    In TTT you have a climactic battle. What do we know about the two opposing parties? We have our heroes that we know very well, we know their strategy, they show emotion, wit and desperation. Then we have the Uruks. We don't know every Uruk. We don't need to know every Uruk. But we know what their purpose is, their goal, their ability, their strategy. We know enough about them to hate them. Result: We CARE.

    In AOTC you also have a climactic battle. What do we know about the two opposing parties? We have the Seperatists. We know nothing about them. We don't know where they come from, what their goals are, whether their cause is just or evil. Their strategy, as far as one can make out, is "let's shoot at everything that moves". Then we have the Clones. We know nothing about them apart from the person they were all created from. They have no wit, no intelligence, no emotions, their strategy is "let's shoot at everything that moves". On top of that the outcome of the battle doesn't matter. Result: Nobody cares.
  2. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    It's a shame that Minority Report wasn't nominated for best visual effects, as out of Spider-Man, Attack of the Clones, and The Two Towers, Minority Report was the only film that had consistently good effects, in my opinion.
  3. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    yes, but in Spider-Man's defence - it's infintely harder to do character animation in CGI (especially animation of humans) then to do a CG futuristic car. In other words - the effects in MP look better but they're not as ambitious as the ones in SM
  4. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    "We don't need to know every Uruk. But we know what their purpose is, their goal, their ability, their strategy"

    Agreed. Just like we don't need to know what each individual battle droid is thinking. That they are trying to kill Jedi is a good reason to hate them.

    "Then we have the Clones. We know nothing about them apart from the person they were all created from. They have no wit, no intelligence, no emotions, their strategy is "let's shoot at everything that moves"."

    Kinda like the Uruk-hai?

    Again, the end battle is not only the start of the clone wars, but also a backdrop for what is going on with the Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, Yoda and Dooku. And I care what happens to them. And I think that I'm not the only one. :cool:



  5. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    The same thing happened at the Razzies. I counted nearly fourty films that are fifty times worse than AOTC on every level, yet AOTC was nominated worst picture.

    Now, turning to the academy, I feel AOTC is a lot more worthy than most of the canidates in make-up, costume, art direction, and sound.

    Hollywood has it in for SW.
  6. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    "In other words - the effects in MP look better but they're not as ambitious as the ones in SM"

    Kinda like the Yoda-Dooku fight, and AOTC overall, was far more ambitious than anything else in 2002 efx wise?
  7. TheFury Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 3
    1)TTT had solid acting from all principals (except hugo weaving), even most who like AOTC agree the acting is terrible.

    Solid acting? Boring acting more like. I have never seen a more boring, dull, and lifless bunch of actors ever assembled than in LOTR.

    And what gives you the impression that people who liked AOTC, hated the acting? And more importantly - What gives you the right to speak for most Star Wars fans?

    I loved AOTC and I loved the acting. There are scenes in AOTC that are simply electric. Scenes that will be remembered forever because of how well they were acted. Like Anakins confession.

    The LOTR cast is second rate, at best.







    2)TTT has incredible FX both old and new, AOTC looks like a video game

    Were you watching the same movie as me? The minitures in TTT stood out a mile.
    The tree's weren't walking through a forest, they were walking through cyberspace. They were so badly animated that I felt embarassed for the people at WETA.

    That flying creature(Nazgul or something), screamed out "Hey look! I'm on a sound stage!".

    John Rhys Davies changed sizes so often in the movie that I kept watching him rather than the what I was meant to be looking at.

    All the way through the movie there were moments that were so awful, it completley took me out of what was happening. Legal Ass jumping onto the horse to name but one.

    Every scene in AOTC has an effects moment to take your breath away.

    Watto, Yoda, Geonosis and the Geonosians, Kamino and the Kaminoans, the Clone factories, the Clones eating lunch, the Acklay, Nexu and Reek, the Droid Factory, the Speeder Chase, Coruscant, the Asteroid Chase, everything on Tattoine, everything on Naboo, Dexx, the Battle Droids, the Clone Battle, and on and on and on.

    I had no idea the Clones were CGI until I read it on a website. I had no idea that some shots buring the Obi-Wan/Jango fight used a digital Obi-Wan until I saw the DVD. I had no idea the arena was a miniture until I saw the DVD.

    ILM combine minitures, puppets, matte painting and CGI better than anybody.

    And to say that it resembled a computer game made me laugh considering that's what FOTR was.
    Meet some bad guys, run away, move onto the next level
    Meet some bad guys, run away, move onto the next level
    Meet some bad guys, run away, move onto the next level
    And then ......yehaa...you get to fight the big creature at the end!








    3)TTT is a compelling story of good versus evil, both internal and external, its cliamtic battle shows both nature vs technology but also men overcoming their personal demons, and there is an epic battle o protect the lives of women and children. AOTC has an epic battle between faceless clones and faceless robots both of whom serve corrupt political institutions whose belief systems are never discussed nor explained. It has no main hero, nor main villan.

    So what your saying is that TTT is childish in it's view that the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, while AOTC is an incredibly complex study of how the line between good and evil can sometimes get blurred and how once good men can end up becoming the thing they fear the most? Or how politicians can maniplulate the feelings of the masses to gain more power? Or how people have to choose to follow their hearts or their heads?

    If you are then I agree with you.






    4)By most accounts TTT is superior to its predessors, where as even in the SW fan community many find AOTC pales compared to TPM and especially the OT.

    A lot of people would disagree with you. AOTC is my second favourite Star Wars movie after ESB. But what you've done there is show us the reason you dislike the PT.

    You were expecting to see the OT. I on the other hand wanted 3 brand new SW movies and that's what I got. I'm happy. No, I'm delighted.





    5)TTT is about something and has characters which anyone can relate to. AOTC is not, and does not.

    See question 3 for my answer to that.

    And by the way, I can relate much more to Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan than a bunch of d
  8. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    This post should be archived right now. Is there anyway I can fit it in my sig?

    [face_laugh]

  9. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    TheFury - I agree with a lot of your points regarding AOTC. However, I disagree with your harsh assessment of TTT. It's a really awesome movie.

    Oscar, and other awards, have more to do with politics and promotion than the quality of a film, hence the reason GONY was nominated.

    AOTC wasn't the only film that got snubbed.

    EDIT: Anyone know what was NOT nominated for best animated feature? I thought the word on Treasure Planet was that it both sucked and blowed.
  10. Jedi knight Pozzi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2000
    star 6
    `yes, but in Spider-Man's defence - it's infintely harder to do character animation in CGI (especially animation of humans) then to do a CG futuristic car.'

    True, but ILM and WETA have done it, so (in my view at least) SM could have done something better. :)

    `The same thing happened at the Razzies. I counted nearly fourty films that are fifty times worse than AOTC on every level, yet AOTC was nominated worst picture. Now, turning to the academy, I feel AOTC is a lot more worthy than most of the canidates in make-up, costume, art direction, and sound.'

    Since it's somewhere in the middle, does this mean it's mediocore? ;)
  11. Tukafo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2002
    star 4
    "In other words - the effects in MP look better but they're not as ambitious as the ones in SM"

    Kinda like the Yoda-Dooku fight, and AOTC overall, was far more ambitious than anything else in 2002 efx wise?"

    I agree. There's no question that the effects in AOTC were more ambitious than in most other movies. I also think they're better than Spider-Man. I only wanted to defend SM's effects. They often receive harsh criticism but what they were trying to do is extremely ambitious - an actual CG human that is supposed to move like a human (even though he's a superhero he still is bound to the laws of physics). They might not have been completely successful but the job was much much harder than the job for Minority Report
  12. TheFury Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 3
    Deathstar1977 - the first time I saw FOTR and TTT and enjoyed parts of them but thought they were VERY flawed.

    But to hear some people you'd think they were the most perfect movies ever made which they are not. The more I watch them, the more I realise just how poorly made they are.

    --------------------

    I heard a guy on the BBC last night talking about the Oscars and how political they were. He rhymed off a bunch of statistics that were interesting. It was about how many members of the academy had ties to the studios and things like that. I'll try and find them.






  13. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    "I only wanted to defend SM's effects. They often receive harsh criticism but what they were trying to do is extremely ambitious - an actual CG human that is supposed to move like a human (even though he's a superhero he still is bound to the laws of physics). They might not have been completely successful but the job was much much harder than the job for Minority Report."

    Good point.

    TheFury - let us know what you find, I'd be very interested. I used to work for an agency (no I am not implying that I am smarter than everyone or trying to impress!)and there was a LOT of promotion going on. Its a political campaign very similar to running for office.
  14. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    I don't think it's possible, but can we try not to rip on TTT and Spider-Man as much? This only makes people want to rip on AOTC more.

    Make the different films look better by pointing out their good parts, not by pointing out the bad parts in other films.
  15. Turkilma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 2
    I have to ask Rebel Scum why he is on an AOTC board if all he dies is criticise? There are plenty of anti-Star Wars sites out there.

    Because this is a DISCUSSION Forum !!!

    For pity´s sake !!!

    <sigh>


  16. TheFury Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 3
    "I have to ask Rebel Scum why he is on an AOTC board if all he dies is criticise? There are plenty of anti-Star Wars sites out there.

    Because this is a DISCUSSION Forum !!!

    For pity´s sake !!! "

    ================

    Why would you want to spend time discussing something you hate?
  17. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Thin red line was what really got robbed that year.

    Thin Red Line was rubbish. Stupid voice overs throughout the movie. Not once did I feel a sense of danger in that movie. Boring!!! AWEFUL!!!
  18. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    I wasn't going to return here, but the issue of campaigning came up in here. This is the campaigning I KNOW of for VISUAL EFFECTS...

    I happen to have Cinefex 92 (A trade magazine dealing with the behind the scenes of visual effects) Gollum is on the cover.
    I'm looking for the For Your Consideration ads... what's here? Relevant films being discussed here are in bold.

    Page 3: For Your Consideration (FYC): Spider-Man

    Page 7: FYC: Sony Pictures Imageworks with pixs for Spider-Man, Stuart Little 2 and the ChubbChubbs.

    Page 11: FYC: Minority Report

    Page 21: FYC: Stuart Little 2

    Page 24: FYC: Star Trek Nemesis

    Page 34: FYC: Die Another Day

    Page 36: FYC: Harry Potter 2

    Page 44: FYC: XXX

    Page 55: FYC: SW: EP2: AOTC

    Page 95: FYC: Men in Black 2

    Too be fair, the book has articles on Spy Kids 2, XXX and LOTR:TTT.
    LOTR:TTT has about 4 ads congratulating it's crew and WETA, New Line, etc. but there are no FYC ads for LOTR:TTT or Spy Kids 2.

    People are spending money promoting their work, they are campaigning. Since every thing and everyone (fro the sake of this discussion) is biased against GL and SW, why dose someone pay for the FYC ads!
    The only "low move" I see is for XXX, it has the second article AND they have a FYC ad!

    Add this to the discussion...



  19. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I don't see how AOTC was not nominated for sound. Whereas TTT and AOTC were both excellent in visual efx, AOTC was far and away the best of 2002 in terms of sound.

    BTW, whats the difference between sound and sound editing?


    If I may, the categories for sound are divided in terms of what they represent. The sound award implies the overall sound of the film, in terms of both the quality of captured sound on the set (dialogue) but also the best in terms of the final mix of all of the elements - background FX, specific FX, dialogue, music, foley, ADR and so on).

    Sound editing is just that - the work that goes into matching the on-set dialogue takes to picture, the placement of background fx for every scene, specific fx for every scene, foley, ADR, music, etc.

    With the exception of dialogue, most films are generally silent when they get to the sound effects editors. Everything from the wind blowing, to doors closing, to arrow fly-bys, to footsteps, to explosions, are all edited into the picture after the fact. 99% of the time, these sounds are re-created in the studio, using vast amounts of library sounds or are created by sound designers and editors using digital workstations like Pro-Tools or sampling keyboards like the Synclavier or Kurzweil, to name just a couple. The award for sound editing is given to the picture that sound effects editors think best exemplifies the art of editing.

    As a sound editor and designer, I can see why the nominations went the way they did. AOTC features a wide variety of sounds already used in the other SW films, so the issue of it's originality comes into question. The sound effects that were original were either underused (IMHO) or not that great to begin with - Zam Weisels (SP?) ship is essentially an electric guitar. Even if the source sound is not, it ends up sounding much like one, and was a bad choice, IMHO. Further, many of the spaceship sounds have their origins in reciprocating aircraft engines. In other words, some of the ships sounded like big airplanes. The explosions were Ben Burtt's classic SW vintage.

    The one truly amazing sound effect was the seismic charges. That sequence still amazes me. :) However, the strength of that one scene isn't enough to garner it a nomination.

    Lastly, the complexity of all of these films deserves some nod. "Gangs of New York" is up for it's re-creation of a time none of us ever lived (much like ANH). The sheer scope and originality of TTT is the reason it got it's nod. AOTC sounds like the other SW films, and therefore the law of diminishing returns comes into play.

    My $.02. :)
  20. Turkilma Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 2
    OFF TOPIC again ... [face_plain]

    Why would you want to spend time discussing something you hate?

    I can´t talk for RebelScum and all the other (semi)bashers,
    but I discuss both, the negative AND the positive aspects of the STAR WARS movies because ...

    I, and many other dissapointed fans,
    care for STAR WARS and know that there is much potential in the prequel movies,
    and they could be sooooo much better if certain things would have been taken more care of
    (prior in the acting/dialouge department)

    PS
    Does it REALLY make sense to tell each other how cool and great a movie is ?
    If you enjoy it, GREAT.
    Invite some friends and watch it together.
    No need to discuss it on internet fourms.
    Right ?

    No, not exactly, but it is just as legitimate
    to express ones ambivalent or downright negative opinion.
  21. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Now what do we know about Sauron, based on the movies?"

    Let's see, shall we?

    He originally planned to conquer the world by offering its leaders powerful artifacts, through which he attempted to corrupt them. His plan ensnared enough of the world that he was able to begin his war of conquest, but the rest of the civilized world banded together, ultimately defeating him.

    Over the next 3,000 years, he lingered over Mordor in an incorporeal haze, growing more and more obsessed with recovering his Ring and striking out again. Drawn to his anger, his armies gravitated back toward him, and through his powers of deception and fear, he was able to coerce Saruman into joining him as well.

    Now, under his command, his spies and agents scour the world for the Ring; once he regains it, nothing will be able to stop him.

    That's all from the films.
  22. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    Thanks TS, I do actually know how sound is incorporated into film, but I do appreciate the explanation.

    Just curious, how is TTT so different from FOTR? I will say that the Balrog sequence was amazing.

    And why is reciprocating 'airplane' engines a bad thing? I thought the gunships sounded awesome. And if it sounds good, who cares where it came from.

    The sound effects were so precise and detailed in AOTC, its just shame they were overlooked.

    EDIT: "Over the next 3,000 years, he lingered over Mordor in an incorporeal haze, growing more and more obsessed with recovering his Ring and striking out again. Drawn to his anger, his armies gravitated back toward him, and through his powers of deception and fear, he was able to coerce Saruman into joining him as well...That's all from the films."

    Where was this in the films? His armies gravitating back to him, and his coercion of Saruman through deception and fear? I don't think so.

    "Now, under his command, his spies and agents scour the world for the Ring; once he regains it, nothing will be able to stop him."

    Now THAT was in the film.




  23. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    The thing about Oscar's is that it's largely influenced by the critical buzz, and in my opinion this has nothing to do with whetger the film is any good or not, for one simple reason. Critics are just like you and me. They may have studied film theory, they may have watched all the classics but at the end of the day their opinion is no more valid than your own. Unfortunately, because they have the soap box of a paper, website, tv show etc what their opinions are often taken as fact.

    I don't think AOTC will win. I think it does have the best effects of the nominees but isn't the oscar for the best use of special effects. The current anti-SW trend in the media believes that the digital effects of the SW films work to the detriment of plot, acting, etc. LOTR, on the other hand can do no wrong. Neither can Spiderman. Now to me, how any critic can hold it up to the same criteria and find it to be better than SW or any other superhero flick is beyond me.

    Exactly the same things they criticize SW for are to be found in Spiderman. I thought the first hour was great. I thought the effects were like a video-game and I almost fell asleep during the scene when Peter Parker chats with M-J in the hospital about his love for her. But because I am just a regular Joe that opinion counts for nothing. TTT is great but there are massive flaws, which in their rush not to look out of step, the critics amazingly overlook. The flash backs to the Elves that drag the story to a halt and aren't even in the book. The fact that the Elves are the campest army ever and some dodgy acting from bit parts. Hugely inconsistent quality of effects. Gollum is amazing. The miniatures stick out as miniatures as much as any CG shot. Now there are far more positives than that of course.

    The thing is, both these franchises are new. People get fed up with the same thing. The freshness wears off. SW has been around for ages and the law of diminishinf returns is setting in. Think Spiderman 5 will be universally acclaimed by fans and critics? ROTK will do better. The story has the best ending I can think of. However, it stops at three. I have no doubt that if there were to be three more films people would get sick of them too.

    Back to the Oscars- The film that gets me is Chicago. Again, the critics are tripping overthemselves to proclaim how great it is. Utter tosh. It's a polished average film. Stunningly average. And I believe myself intelligent enough not to have missed the point. you want a great musical go and see Moulin Rouge or Cabaret. And yet this by the numbers effort has got 13 nominations. If that doesn't tell you that the Oscar's aren't really worth taking too seriously then nothing will. Time and time again they get it wrong.

    I guess my point is this. Don't worry too much. If you love AOTC that's enough. As for the razzies, forget it. I can see the flaws in AOTC but if you really think it is that bad( and that opinion is not coloured by your twenty year old love for this saga and what you hoped it would be) then I feel sorry for you. I have big problems with the prequels too but there is still plenty to enjoy.

    The oscars are just an industry love in and a popularity contest and let's face it SW just isn't very trendy or popular anymore. LOTR and others are riding the wave at the moment and good luck to 'em. We've had it for twenty odd years and have enjoyed
    Looking down on the other franchises. SW was king. Now we've been knocked off our perch and aren't too comfortable with it. Looks like we'll have to get used to it.
  24. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Where was this in the films? His armies gravitating back to him, and his coercion of Saruman through deception and fear? I don't think so."

    GANDALF
    His orcs have multiplied. His fortress of Barad-Dur is rebuilt in the land of Mordor.

    SARUMAN
    You did not seriously think that a Hobbit could contend with the will of Sauron; there are none who can! Against the forces of Mordor, there can be no victory. We must join with him, Gandalf; we must join with Sauron.
  25. DeathStar1977 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2003
    star 4
    All that says to me is that there are more orcs than there were before, not that 'his armies gravitated back to him'. And what exactly does that tell us about Sauron? That he's back, it doesn't give us any character development, which is the point I believe the original poster was trying to make.

    Saruman's statement doesn't imply deception or coercion. It implies that Saruman is greedy for power. "There is only one Lord of the Rings...and he does not share power" Anyway, it tells far more about Saruman than it does Sauron.

    And some might call that exposition. If this were SW, one would probably say...why not show us rather than tell us?

    EDIT: Anyway, I love LOTR, so it is hard for my to provide the intense scrutiny that some seem so willing to do to SW.

    That, and I'm at work...I think my boss is wondering exactly what I'm getting getting done.
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