AOTC reveals how Jedi disappear

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BlueYoda, May 19, 2002.

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  1. BlueYoda Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    After watching AOTC, I think I've figured out how Jedi are able to disappear and retain their identity after death. Ever since the OT, us fans thought that Jedi disappear only if they prepare themselves for death. IMHO its not that simple. During AOTC, one particular line from Anakin had me thinking.

    "I promise you...I will even learn to stop people from dying."

    Understand yet? Read on.

    This is how Jedi are able to retain their identity after death:

    The Jedi who guide the chosen one on the path to fulfill the prophecy will retain their identity after death and provide further guidance.

    Now we all know that Anakin is the chosen one. Lucas himself has confirmed this. Anakin kills the Emperor, eliminating all the Sith in the universe, and therefore bringing balance back to the Force. Luke, on the other hand, is sort of an extension of the chosen one, or the "second chosen one." He redeems his father and helps him fulfill the prophecy. Now lets look at the list of Jedi who retain their identity.

    Qui-Gon Jinn - Started and guided Anakin towards his dream of becoming a Jedi. No real training. (Time span: 1-2 weeks)

    Obi-Wan Kenobi - Trained Anakin as his padawan learner. (Time span: Over 10 years) Also watched over and started Luke on his journey to become a Jedi. (Time span: A few days)

    Yoda - Trained Luke as a Jedi. (Time span: 2-4 weeks?)

    Anakin Skywalker - The chosen one. Retains his identity by returning to the lightside of the force and fulfilling the prophecy.

    Lucas has stated several times that the line from ANH:

    "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

    ...is the key to understanding why Jedi disappear. Well, now it makes sense.

    Obi-Wan inevitably becomes the most powerful Jedi after death since he trained Anakin all those years and ALSO starts Luke towards Anakin's path of redemption.

    Qui-Gon was right all along about Anakin being the chosen one. In the AOTC novelization it states that no Jedi, except him, has ever been able to retain their identity after death. During the Tusken slaughter, the only two Jedi that heard Qui Gon were Yoda and Anakin. However, Anakin was in a state of rage and chose not to hear it, while Yoda was in a deep meditative state. Since Qui-Gon only knew Anakin for about a week, he is the weakest Jedi to retain his identity. Because of this, he can only communicate through voice. I've asked a lot of casual Star Wars fans if they heard Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC and I was surprised that a lot of them actually missed it. This proves the theory that even Qui-Gon's voice ability is weak. The reason he did not disappear when he died is because he did not guide Anakin long enough. This also explains why he does not show up at the end of ROTJ, since he can't appear in spirit form.

    Yoda disappears after death simply because he trains Luke towards the chosen one's path of redemption. He is able to appear in spirit form because he gave Luke formal Jedi training and also because he knew Anakin. After death, he is more powerful than Qui-Gon but still not as powerful as Obi-Wan.

    BTW it states in the ROTJ novelization that Anakin disappears also. The explanation for this would be that he is the chosen one and by fulfilling the prophecy he retains his identity.

    But how is Yoda able to hear what other Jedi can't? I think this may go back to Episode I's explanation of midi-chlorines. The line from Obi-Wan:

    "The reading's off the charts."
    "Even higher than Master Yoda's."

    This seems to imply that the two highest midi-chlorine counts belong to Anakin and Yoda. Basically its the two who are more in tune with the Force. However, in AOTC Count Dooku seemed pretty equal with his knowledge of the Force. Well, its my belief that after you sucumb to the darkside, the Jedi spirits can no longer guide you. This is why Qui-Gon Jinn can no longer speak to Vader.

    I think that we'll hear Qui-Gon again in Episode III. Possibly at a point where Anakin is turning to the darkside. You'll notice in
  2. Darth Homer 327 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 1999
    star 4
    Hmmm...

    I have to say BlueYoda, this is the best explanation I have heard as of yet. I need to think about this for awhile... but you may be onto something...
  3. deltron_zero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2002
    star 6
    very interesting theory, i like it :)
  4. VaderSith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2001
    star 1
    What about Berrys and livesafes and sticks


  5. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
  6. Darth Saber Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 1999
    star 3
    Pretty good theory. Its gotten me thinking. :D

    DS
  7. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    Great work. One question: How does Obi-Wan become more powerful than Vader could imagine? What power did he have?
  8. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Good theory, whats everyone's take on Luke being the chosen one? All the spirits and only the spirits that guide him retain their identity.
  9. jedi-jeff Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 3
    The following is a very interesting quote from the AOTC novelization (pg 276) that has relevance to the subject of how Jedi disappear:

    It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew that it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, he had become one with the Force! One could not retain conciousness and sense of self in that state; one could not speak from beyond the grave.


    This statement seems to indicate that Yoda is not aware that a jedi could have the abilty to communicate after death.

    P.S. I did not see any scene in the Geonosis arena that showed Jedi disappearing when they died. I am wondering if anyone else saw any Jedi disappear when they died in AOTC.

  10. Darth Homer 327 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 1999
    star 4
    dolphin, my guess would be Obi-Wan meant that by striking him down, He would become more powerful than he could possibly imagine in that he would be able to guide and mentor Luke whenever he would need help, and thus giving Luke an upperhand. Just like when Obi-Wan guided Luke to use the Force to blow up the Deathstar.

    Maybe he even meant it that it was going to keep the chain of events moving, leading Luke farther towards learning from Yoda.

    ?[face_plain] Who knows!
  11. billydeewilliams Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    That's exactly what Obi Wan meant.
  12. RaidenKleen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    A commendable explanation. That would explain then why Anakin looks like he is about 45 at the end of ROTJ. The dark side left his body. And through this it allows Jedi to dissapear and retain their form. So Yoda guided Anakin along the way....I believe there is something else however.

    I think if a Jedi's Midichlorian count is high enough, they have the ability to dissapear and retain their form at will. Anakin, Yoda and Obi Wan obviously all have the highest count. And maybe Mace Windu. The rest don't however.
  13. Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 7
    Very interesting, well thought out theory. Certainly the best I've seen. :)

    ~*~Bria
  14. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    My obligatory post on the subject?

    >>>> Has anyone considered the fact that disappearing at death and retaining identity after death may not be at all connected?

    That?s what I think, and here?s why:

    Jedi Ghosts


    When Star Wars became a hit and I had a chance to make the other movies, I had to figure out a way to bring Ben back, but a lot of issues he had to deal with were carried by Yoda. In a sense, I combined Yoda with the spirit of Ben. I wanted Ben to have some kind of influence, but I didn?t want it to be a direct influence where he could help Luke. So Ben has managed to keep his identity after he became one with the Force. One of the things he was doing on Tatooine besides watching over Luke was learning how to keep his identity after he became part of the Force.

    ?George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    Lucas says that Ben managed to keep his identity after becoming one with the Force, which implies that every Jedi becomes one with the Force when they die. What?s more, it seems every life form becomes one with the Force upon death:


    . . . The Force was discussed in great detail. In the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] George Lucas defined the Force as follows: The act of living generates a force field, an energy. That energy surrounds us; when we die, that energy joins with all the other energy. . . . We are part of the Force because we generate the power that makes the Force live. When we die, we become part of that Force, so we never really die; we continue as part of the Force.

    ?Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    Here you have the indication that as far back as the story meetings for TESB (which took place in November 1977) that George fleshed out the concept of the Living Force?a Force that ?grows? and ?lives? as a result of Life in the Star wars universe. And according to TPM?s screenplay, Qui-Gon became one with the Force:


    He [Qui-Gon] is one with the Force, Anakin? You must let go.

    ?Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
    So just like every other life form, apparently every Jedi dies and becomes one with the Force. Only a few, however, know how to come back as a spirit. Kenobi, apparently, is one of the privileged:


    One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere in between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don?t ever get to see how he does it, but the idea of retaining your identity after you?ve passed on is something that Ben learned as a Jedi.

    ?George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
    Taken literally, the above passage maintains that Yoda informs Obi-Wan that it is possible not to lose all identity after becoming one with the Force. And during the many years Kenobi lives in isolation on Tatooine, he learns how to retain his identity. Abstractly understood, however, it?s possible that Obi-Wan picks up this discipline from Qui-Gon, since Qui-Gon is of Yoda?s direct Jedi lineage. What I mean is, because Dooku was Yoda?s Padawan, Yoda could have passed the knowledge of retaining one?s identity on to Dooku, and Dooku could?ve passed this knowledge on to Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon said in TPM that Kenobi had ?much to learn of the Living Force? and implied that there was still some things that he had left to teach Obi-Wan. It?s possible that while he was alive Qui-Gon never had the opportunity to teach Obi-Wan how to retain his identity because Obi-Wan was never at the appropriate point in his training.

    So I think Qui-Gon will be back as a ghost (?Jinn? is an Arabic word meaning ?spirit born of fire?), and that he will appear to Obi-Wan as a warning of
  15. Jedi-Knight85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    i don't think obi wan is stronger than yoda...cuz did you see yoda go ape on whats his face in AotC? the only reason i believe obi wan retains his identity or whatever is because he trained luke..if you noticed..only people that were linked to luke retained that identity stuff...i don't think it had too much to do with anakin however i could be wrong =/ and btw i heard the voice but i couldn't decided whether it was obi or qui gon...an anywho..thats my input on the matter
  16. BlueYoda Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    I also forgot to mention that this theory coincides with many religious themes that Lucas puts into these movies.
    For example, Christians believe if they follow Jesus they are given life in heaven after death.
    If the Jedi guide the Chosen One they are able to retain their identity after death.
    Virgin Mary = Shmi, Jesus = Anakin
  17. Jedi-Knight85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    or ya know...it could just be one of those things where the jedis decide whether or not they want to be seen by the living...i mean all those jedi people that died in the arena and past times could just be walkin around talking to other dead jedi or living people that they chose to let them see him/her

    we may never know
  18. RaidenKleen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    That's very interesting. Perhaps if Jedi are indeed able to pass their medi chlorians across over death, then Leia and Luke will also dissapear? Both were born from Anakin, and if their count is high enough, they should have the ability to dissapear as well.
  19. Raliegh-StClair Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 1
    These are all great theories, but I have one question- why doesn't Qui Gonn disappear? What is he doing differently that makes him not disappear, while the other ones do?
  20. Zam-Wessel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    If that's the real meaning behind becoming one with the force, then we should see Mace Windu become one with the force in the next film. Hm. Come to think of it, every Jedi who fought in the arena should've become one with the Force. They helped defend off the clones and the beasts from Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme. If they wouldn't have come, then they would surely have been killed. If not by the droids and beasts, then by Jango and Dooku.

    So, they all helped the prophecy come true... from a certain point of view.
  21. darthdickalan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Thats an awesome theory. But that line can be taken two ways, your way or what if he is just talking about his robotic suit (VADER) he will be able to stop people from dying (himself) he needs it to stay alive.
  22. Gonzo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2000
    star 1
    i felt the same sense of foreshaowing at Anakin's line. I thought that perhaps in the days of Ep3 Anakin might scrape the surface of a greater knowledge of the force. I would like to think that a Jedi (of even better Sith) Holocron from the Visual Dictionary would come into play. Anakin finds it in the Jedi Temple, (or maybe Palpatine/Sidious draws him to it) and he begins to unlock knowledge unknown to any jedi. However, before he can master these ancient skills, he is turned to the dark side. The remaining Jedi (read: OB1 and Yoda) instead study these last remnants of knowledge, in the hopes that it can save them. in a sense, Anakin discovers the knowledge, but ultimately does not have occasion to use it. This 'being able to stop people from dying' may be the turning point to the dark side. Its very arrogant thought to presume to have such a power. we all saw Anakin as an arrogant person. a power like this could corrupt him completely. Who knows? this could just as easliy be a sith power, harnessed by the remaining jedi. We never saw Maul's corpse, nor Palpatine's. Perhaps Dooku will be the first to disappear. Thanks for reading my two cents.
  23. Corusca-Gem Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    Bad_Radio,



    What a post. You certantly have researched your stuff. I feel you are on the right track with the first half. The disappearing part I have more doubt about.

    But what a good post!
  24. LiberalBishop Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    OK, a few thoughts.

    First of all: "That would explain then why Anakin looks like he is about 45 at the end of ROTJ. The dark side left his body." <~The man who played Anakin was in his 80s when RotJ was made.

    That has little to do with it, however. I don't know how it will all play out, but I think it's more complicated than helping Anakin on his path towards becoming The Chosen One.

    I know that the Expanded Universe does not really play into the films as much as we thought, but consider this: based on Dark Empire, Darth Sidious (Emperor Palpatine) knows how to preserve his consciousness after death. Rather than choosing to become a spectric, he transfers his consciousness into one of the clone bodies on the Sith planet.

    So is it about helping Anakin, or is it something that only those strong in the force can discover (Yoda (who teaches Obi-Wan), Anakin, Palpatine).
  25. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Not a bad theory, especially coming from a Blue Yoda supporter...
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