AOTC reveals how Jedi disappear

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BlueYoda, May 19, 2002.

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  1. LiberalBishop Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    Two Questions to Posters:

    1. Do you consider Qui-Gon (voice) and Palpatine (into a clone) to have maintained their consciousness in the same way Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin did?

    2. Must you disappear to be a spectric, and did Anakin disappear (not currently apparent in RotJ)?
  2. BookieGnu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    This may be simplfying things a bit, and correct me if i'm wrong, but surely the disappearing jedi thing has something to do with being in combat when you die... As far as I could tell, no arena jedi deaths resulted in disappearances. Yoda, Anakin, and even Obi-Wan were at peace when they passed away. All other jedi deaths we've seen, they were fighting... and when you're fighting you're angry... and anger leads to the dark side. We don't know for sure that the emporor disappears when he dies, so my theory is it that it has to do with your level of dark side at the time of death
  3. Thrawn05 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 1
    Liberal: According to what one poster mentioned the otherday, GL said that DV did vanish. However, I still think he didn't.
  4. LiberalBishop Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    You might be simplifying it too much. At least one other Jedi would have died from old age and people would have noticed, which they apparently haven't. Also, Jedi obviously have a cremation ritual, as represented by Qui-Gon and Anakin's funerals (even if it was just Vader's suit).
  5. Jedi-Knight85 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    dude bookie..ur right lol none of the people you see died fighting...well obi sort of did..but i still think it has to do with some sort of connection to luke as opposed to anakin..
  6. BookieGnu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    you're right liberal... I was just thinking about the jedi deaths we've seen... not all the others there would have been before the movies
  7. grandmoffg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 1998
    star 1
    I definately like the theory, but I have to agree with the jesus comparison. Lucas loves to use mythology, and I think that this is definately where he is going with this. Anakin is clearly parallel with Jesus in many respects....so I like the bit from the Bible about having eternal life if you follow Jesus being transposed to Yoda, Qui Gonn, and Obi Wan having eternal life for having the most direct influence on Jesus/Anakin.

    Dooku Dooku Dooku! He twists all theories. Damn him.
  8. Deltron_Z_3030 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    the theory that im gonna stick with is if a jedi accepts his death, their body will disappear. obi allowed himself to die, yoda wasnt afraid to die, and after ani wanted his mask to be taken off he knew he would surely die so he was ready for it. but qui gon did not want to die at that very moment. whatever...
  9. JPA74 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    I becoming one with the force is totally different. I agree with someone before that said that kenobi would on be more powerful to than Vader could imagine, meaning just being around luke to teach him no matter what the circumstances. Kenobi became one with the force maybe because he died in somewhat peace. He accepted his death and did not try to fight through it, yoda died peaceful in lukes arms, and Vader never disappeared, but he is the chosen one so it doesn't matter.
  10. bleutuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 1
    So you're saying that just because they *know* Anakin they are able to retain their identies after they die?

    Malarkie. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense at all to me. That would make it like a communicable disease, and it would mean that pretty much every Jedi would be able to transcend, because most Jedi would have met Anakin at one time or another.

    And, if you're saying that it's because they were training Anakin or his son, that's just as ludicrous in my opinion. It just doesn't make any sense.

    Finally, Anakin does not know about disappearing after dying. Have you seen A New Hope?.

    Besides the fact that Obi-Wan says, "I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." (indicating that Vader knows nothing about this) Vader looks strangely at Obi-Wan's now empty robes and start to stomp on them, in an effort to find the body of Obi-Wan.

    Ergo, Anakin has no idea that Jedi can disappear when they die.
  11. Thrawn68 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    While we are on the expanded universe. There is a line in Heir To The Empire. When Obi tells Luke in a dream that the gap b/t the two worlds had grown too large for him to continue to appear to Luke. This would add to the theory that appering to someone has to do with how well you know them (or their blood?) Obi Yado both new luke well. and of corse Vader is Luke's father so I would bet he could appear to him. Power in the force may lead to how long you can keep coming back.
  12. darthmaul2002 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 2
    Your a genius BLUEYODA! That makes total SENSE! I can see things more clearly now! thank you so much! That must have taken you a while to write or think of. Good Job! :D
  13. vpt_ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2002
    star 1
    yea that is a good theory, but who knows if thats GL's real idea. that explains it, but is that how lucas originally thought it up? real complex ya know, thats just what we the fans can figure out. whatever.

    -later.
  14. RaidenKleen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    I don't think Qui Gon ever dissapears. And it would make sense since the rest of the Jedi don't either. Only Jedi with the higher medichlorian counts...
  15. Jedi Miester Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 1999
    star 3
    When Vader steps on Obi Wan's robes in ANH, maybe he is just suprised that a Jedi had mastered the dissapearing thing that Anakin had discovered, or what ever.

    I think Anakin's line definately relates to this subject, which means he will have a major influence in how this comes about.

    Maybe his reluctance to accept death leads him to researching and discovering this 'ancient' art in EPIII, of course, against the wishes of the Ob1 and the Jedi, who later use the same art as a last resort to counter the Jedi extermination.

    BTW, I thought Lucas said the dissapearing thing was a major plot point that was going to be explained in this movie. What happened?
  16. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Wow, Bad Radio and Blue Yoda those two humongous posts have probably made my months of sitting around here punching "reload" completely worth it!!

    Incredible Job!!! You guys, that was awesome!
    ;) :)

    Those are incredibly consistent conjectures. With the movies and almost anything that one could term "canon."

    I completely agree Bad Radio. [awesome name and picture-icon by the way considering the theory you've just propounded.] ;)

    Blue Yoda just shocked me too, "where are the berries and the sticks" is right!...you should be posting here more often!!!! ;)

    So here is my question, if you both deign to answer it:

    I agree that disappearing can make one more powerful by amplifying the force for the living, and that it is a trained skill. OK. I also agree that only those with a strong connection to the living force through their midi-chlorian concentrations are receptive enough to receive the energy from those that retain their identity in order to channel more power to those living.

    But why have Anakin's line in AOTC? Bad Radio's theory only clashes with Blue Yoda's in the sense that Anakin receives no training on how to return! And in fact, It would appear under these theories that the training has been available for some time...to Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan!

    I think I may have the answer, but it is only a conjecture. I think the answer comes from force lightning!

    While good jedi get their energy aided by the living force, as strengthened by those that commit to it like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan. The Sith... can only get strength by robbing others of it...and force lightning may be a manifestation of this!

    Anakin may vow to help the living from dying but we will come to see that his is an "empty vow!" The true way would be through Yoda's training! But Anakin's way, ironically, will only be through machinery! He will slowly come to learn how the Sith are prevented from dying! They are nothing if not continually dying...having rejected the living force!

    The sith age and age, but I believe that they get their energy from the living by sucking it out - like force vampires. In fact they are like "Force Black Holes" or a force version of anti life.

    That would explain why they are difficult to detect to the living jedi? They don't register like a jedi...they register as an absence of force...a black hole in the force.

    Their lightning is none other than a way to drain the living of the force!

    But they cannot drain those that have committed their lives to the living force!

    Hence..there is nothing to subtract or suck out of Yoda! Besides, Yoda is trained to come back through the living force. And this training must involve a belief that one's life's accomplishment as a higher order jedi is to do nothing else but come back as "generator" of sorts for the living force.

    I don't think it is a question of "retaining identity." The jedi don't care about identity. But they do care about generating the living goodness of the force - whatever shape that may take!

    Hence, yoda is completely connected to this living force through training and because he lives for no other purpose than to strengthen life and generate the "life-force."

    And becasue Obi-Wan is also connected to this mission...he also cannot be stopped by force lightning easily...even though he has, as of yet, received no training in this...but perhaps a little training since Qui-Gon's death. He may already be starting to channel himself to the living force for the purpose of strengthening the living. His energies, like Yoda's, cannot be easily drained.

    Now, poor Anakin, has no such training. He is completely swept back by the lightning...as is luke. (of course, both let down their sabers too ;) ).

    But Anakin, once he turns, and dooku, once he turnws, become nothing if not the batteries for the emperor. They are gaping black holes of force energy! Anakin cannot help the living live because he makes his purpose nothing but the deletion of life energy!

    That is what force li
  17. BookieGnu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    adding to my theory posted higher... after it was shot down so brilliantly...

    once again i'm not sure about this bit, because i haven't watched rotj for a while, but at the "family reunion" of all the ghost jedi, is it only Luke that sees them all, and if so, who's to say that other jedis haven't also seen their masters after they have died. We're being given a very specific look at the universe, only through the skywalker family eyes.

    I propose that Jedis who die in peace, at one with the (light side) of the force disappear, become jedi ghosts and are visible to their own apprentices... who else would know their presence well enough to see them after they have died?
  18. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Hey,

    Would you guys like to confirm my theory above? What do you think?

    Blue Yoda?

    Bad Radio?
  19. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Hi,

    Please confirm my theory above,

    what do you guys think?

    Blue Yoda, Bad Radio?

    Thanks!
  20. Crack_6K Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Why do people think Qui-Gon Jinn retained his identity? I personally don't think so. The voice was heard by Yoda, and by seeing the film, Yoda only. I don't know about the novelization, so Anakin might've heard it too, I don't know. Personally I think what Yoda heard was simply a "disturbance" in the force, not necessarilly Qui-Gon's "spirit" yelling to him, but his struggle to protest just barely strong enough so that Yoda could hear through concentrated meditating. It's just like when Alderaan blew up and Obi-Wan comments, "it's like a thousand voices cried out....".
  21. DeltaJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    I've always felt that the 'disappearing' Jedi had a lot to do with giving oneself to the Force willingly as opposed to fighting death to the last breath...

    Kinda like in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, where at the end, Michelle Yeouh (sp?) tells Chow Yun Fat to use his last breath to meditate and send his spirit to the afterlife.

    I dunno...maybe that's craziness...
  22. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    GUYS, THIS POST IS THE BEST I HAVE SEEN WRITTEN SINCE I HAVE BEEN A MEMBER HERE. YOU HAVE TO READ IT!!! (it's relatively short).

    The comments made by blue yoda and bad radio are phenomenal!!!!
  23. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
  24. hitchikingalaxy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    i too have always believed that when a jedi dies at peace, his body comes with him. ben took a second to put himself at peace and vanished, yoda died and joind the force peacefully, none of the jedi that have died in battle have had their bodies join the force in such a way, this is why cremation occurs. i firmly believe vadar died and it was his suit only that luke burned.
  25. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    I agree,

    Now, let's get everyone to read the first two pages of this...you will never be the same again! I promise! :)
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