AOTC reveals how Jedi disappear

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BlueYoda, May 19, 2002.

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  1. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Pretty interesting speculations. What about the big deal made over Qui-Gon and the Living Force? It seems that in the movie and on the Starwars.com characters page they make a distinct attempt to let everyone know that Qui-Gon sees the force differently than other Jedi and is therefore not on the counsel. He advises Anakin, "feel, don't think". He's all about the living force and later in ANH Obi-Wan adopts the same mentality with Luke.

    Is it possible that Qui-Gon has something to do with the Jedi ability to disappear and become one with the living force? He could also appear in Episode III to instruct Obi-Wan and Yoda how to accomplish the feat. That doesn't explain Anakin/Vader except for the fact that Anakin is the child of the force and then could be a part of the living force automatically???

    Who knows, I am sure all will be cleared up in III.

  2. skippy35000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    "This proves the theory that even Qui-Gon's voice ability is weak. The reason he did not disappear when he died is because he did not guide Anakin long enough. This also explains why he does not show up at the end of ROTJ, since he can't appear in spirit form."

    i haven't read everyone's response, but i want to chime in...

    the reason qui-gonn wasn't in ROTJ is because EPISODE ONE WAS NOT MADE YET. we've all heard how george is adding even more stuff into the classic trilogy; i wouldn't be suprised if eventually we got to see qui-gonn and perhaps mace windu next to the three blue ghost dudes at the end of ROTJ.
  3. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
  4. Jedi Master Matt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 1998
    star 1
    Blue Yoda,

    Interesting theory, but I think Anakin's "Powerful enough to prevent people from dying" statement is there for another purpose.

    Ask yourself this question, does Anakin Skywalker ever achive his goal of preventing anyone he cares about from dying?

    The answer is yes.... but not until RotJ. The only person's death Anakin prevents is his own son's.

    Anakin Skywalker's destiny as the Chosen One has NOTHING to do with his high midicholrian count. The Force is meaningless when it comes to fulfilling is destiny. Actually, the Force is what causes Anakin to cause more pain and suffering.

    Let me explain, Anakin makes the "all powerful" statment in AotC. His quest is to obtain more POWER. He wants to obtain this goal. He wants to keep his loved ones from suffering. No matter how much power he obtains, this goal is always out of reach. No knowledge of the Force will help him obtain this. He even turns to the darkside to try to obtain this power. He'll never get it. Anakin's hero's journey is interupted by this fools quest for more power when all along he has had the power to achive this goal. Anakin's character flaw is that he has a hard time accepting the consequences of his emotions. He wants to love, but is too afraid that he'll be hurt.

    What happens in RotJ is that Anakin realizes that he does have the power to prevent someone he loves from dying. It's the LOVE for his son that is this power. Luke is dying. Anakin's love is so strong that he turns on his master. Love defeats evil. No knowledge of the Force could prevent Anakin from saving his son and fulfilling his destiny. It wasn't some ancient Jedi techinque that lifted Palpatine over his head and carried him to the abyss and throw him over. It was LOVE.

    Anakin's destiny as the chosen one was to bring balance to the Force by showing compassion and love, not obtaining he ultimate in Force abilities.

    Simple stuff this Star Wars. Thanks to GL and AotC for showing me this. AotC is the best Star Wars movie yet. Why? Because it tells us all about Anakin Skywalker. Now that we understand Anakin, we can understand Vader. The saga is almost complete.
  5. BlueYoda Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Wow. There's some great theories going on in this thread. Trust me, I've thought about this A LOT. Here's another theory I came up with awhile ago:

    -What if you could only disappear and retain your identity if you killed a Sith Lord?

    Think about it.

    Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul
    Anakin kills the Emperor
    Yoda kills Count Dooku in Episode III?

    And what if Qui-Gon Jinn killed a Jedi called Sifo-Dyas prior to the events in TPM? Its possible that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who was about to turn to the darkside. In other words, Qui-Gon killed a Jedi who was about to become a Sith Lord. His reward is the ability to retain his identity temporarily. The Kamonians themselves stated that Master Sifo-Dyas was on the Jedi Council 10 years ago, but we don't see him in TPM. Also, the Jedi council seems to have something against Qui-Gon. Perhaps Qui-Gon's mission was to bring in Sifo-Dyas, but instead he ended up killing him, causing the Jedi council to have some animosity towards him.

    There are some flaws to the Sith theory though. For example, Sith Lords have exsisted for over a millineum, yet why is Qui-Gon the first to speak from the grave?

    I like the Qui-Gon backstory, but I still stand by my original theory of guiding the chosen one.

    I read Bad Radio's theory and its a great theory. I would've defintely agreed with it a week ago. But reading the novelization, its quite apparent that no Jedi has ever spoken after death. I don't think the author would just make up that information. And it wouldn't be written if it wasn't important. I've read those quotes from GL in the past about learning the technique between Episode III-IV, but I wouldn't be surprised if he changed the concept. I'm only going by recent quotes and material. Remember, Owen Lars was supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother but even Lucas changed that. TFN reports:

    3. The next voice you hear - Yes, that is Liam Neeson's deceased Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn you hear speaking from beyond during a lightsaber battle. George Lucas advises Qui-Gon's words reveal a plot point for the coming Episode 3.

    So IMO in Episode III, GL will defintely touch upon how a Jedi talks from the dead. Qui-Gon's voice will be heard, but he won't appear. I can defintely see Yoda going to the Jedi Library and researching more about what the prophecy states about the chosen one. Now the question is, does retaining one's identity have to do with dissapearing? IMO, Yes. Its too important just to be a technique that Obi-Wan learns inbetween episodes.

    As I stated earlier, my theory coincides with many religious themes that Lucas puts into these movies.
    Christians believe if they follow Jesus they are given life in heaven after death.
    If the Jedi guide the Chosen One they are able to retain their identity after death.
    Virgin Mary = Shmi, Jesus = Anakin

    darth_pooh, I like that theory. I haven't really thought about the Sith but I'm positive that GL will answer all the questions we've had about the Sith. Mace talks about unraveling the mystery of the Sith, so hopefully GL will reveal everything including Sith powers, why they haven't gone extinct, etc.

    Btw, I think it'd be kind of weird if GL decided to add in Mace and Qui-Gon at the end of ROTJ. Especially considering the fact that Luke doesn't know who they are and that they'd be younger than Obi-Wan.
  6. Darth_Gyos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Maybe they have a "religious Task List" to go thru to fulfill a Jedi duty, like Roman Catholics go thru Communion, Confession, Marriage, etc. Yoda and Obi Wan did their deeds (w/Luke) so they passed. Obi Wan, I believe, almost suicidily gave himself, and that type of MARTYRDOM perhaps gets you a hierarcy in the Jedi afterlife.

    Just a thought
  7. BlueYoda Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    Jedi Master Matt - I totally agree with your post, but I think you may have misinterpreted mine. I agree with the fact that when Anakin said the line he wanted to stop people he cared about from dying. But in my post I just said that the quote had me thinking that its probably GL's way of hinting to the fans how some Jedi are able to speak from the grave. Its somewhat of an ironic statement from Anakin.
  8. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    >>>Qui-Gon Jinn - Started and guided Anakin towards his dream of becoming a Jedi. No real training. (Time span: 1-2 weeks)<<<

    It's more like a few days. It takes Darth Maul 9-13 hours to fly from Coruscant to Tatooine on the day they arrive on Tatooine. Figure another day for the race and travel to time back to Coruscant. Then a day on planet followed by the flight back to Naboo which would be under 9-12 hours since it's closer to Coruscant then Tatooine then the duel with Maul and Qui Gon's death.

    >>>BTW it states in the ROTJ novelization that Anakin disappears also.<<<

    The ROTJ novelization also says that Owen is Obi Wan's brother. We all know how that turned out. ;) Anakins body never disapears in THE MOVIE. Obi Wan vanishes upon contact with Vaders saber. Yoda vanishes immeditly following his death. When Vader dies his body just lays there and doesn't go "poof" into thin air. When we see Vaders armor on the barbi it's filled out, suggesting a body.

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  9. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    Listen to George?s commentary on TPM?s DVD during Qui-Gon?s funeral. George specifically says that Anakin was in the suit when Luke torched it. In other words, Anakin didn?t vanish?straight from the creator?s mouth.
  10. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    Bad Radio great to have you back.

    1.Is that because Anakin is in "Balance"? I.e., because he hasn't committed his life entirely to become a generator of the life-giving force like Obi-Wan or Yoda, but he also turns away from the Sith. He is neither here nor there...but yet he is in balance?

    2.Does Vader have any special grasp on Sidious because of his status as an ex-Sith/Jedi in those last few seconds in ROTJ (maybe no jedi who was not trained as a "Sith" could kill the emperor)?

    3.What is the significance of seeing Vader's skeleton be shocked through his suit...and yet to see him still powerfully hefting Sidious...is this like what Yoda does in catching lightning?

    4. Is sith lightning a drain on the force?

    Thanks. :)
  11. calvino Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    bad radio -- great stuff. Just one question. In ESB, when Luke insists on going to Bespin before completing his training, why then does Kenobi say he will be unable to help him?
  12. Senator_Jangi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    Hey,
    I love a lot of your theories, but how about this one, if a Jedi is strong enough and he has unfinished work to do in the Prophesy, then he returns. This explains Qui Gon, who returns to council Anakin, if only briefly, and he is in a way agonized by his pupils path to the dark side. We also dont know if he will come back for a mroe important reason in episode 3
    This also would explain Obi Wan, who would want to council and train Luke to Forfill the prophesy.
    However the Yoda and Anakin return needs deeper discussion. Anakin could possible return to see his son, and show that he is know on the light side of the force, which, while not effecting the prophesy, certainly conpletes it. Also, this could be a biproduct of his lines of immortality that became infamous after episode 2 came out.
    Yoda, though, this is the big conflict in my theory. Two possible solutions.
    A) He needs to reunite with a good Anakin and Obi Wan to complete the prophesy
    B) A little more farfetched, he never knew of the budding romance between Han and Leah and prehaps he is there either to prophesize the Jedi children to come or to make shure that Han is not evil.


    Anyway just a theory, probable wrong.




    Totally different theory:
    If a Jedi is strong enough and has unfinished business, basically its soul is not at rest, it can return.

    Qui Gon: At unrest about the padawan he has found and what he has turned into. Returns to talk to him

    Obi Wan: Hasn't finshed training Luke.

    Yoda: Hasn't seen Anakin in good form. Returns to do so. Returns to see luke as a Jedi, Returns to complete his training

    Anakin: Returns to talk to his son and renounce all his evil deeds
  13. JabbaPapa Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 2
    I think it's something to do with Anakin being a "vergence" in the Force : anyone know what this means exactly ? Do you think Luke is the same ?

    Presumably, the Kyburr crystal in Splinter of the Mind's Eye would also be called a "vergence" nowadays ...
  14. RED_KEV Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Great post blue yoda!!

    You say that Qui Gons voice is heard over the lightsabre battle.. i must have missed that, just so I know, can someone let m know what he says??
  15. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    His voice is heard during the Tusken Massacre - it says: "No Anakin, Noooooooooohh"

    And Yoda and Anakin hear it as a disturbance.
  16. monte3 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    I believe the only reason Yoda, Odi Wan, and Anakin could return are through Luke.

    Notice Luke is the only one who can see all three master @ the end of ROTJ. Leia asks what is it? Obviously she doesn't see them because they are a part of Luke.

    When all three Jedi's die, Luke was the only one around, some how they are all living on through Luke.

    Obi Wan said if you strike me down I'll become a hundred times stronger, Luke was near. In turn making Luke a more powerful Jedi, Luke did not have that long to train to fight Vadar, he could only do so with Yoda and Obi Wans extra force powers.


  17. Xandor Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2002
    I still say that a jedi's ability to disappear is TOTALLY separate from being able to speak from beyond.

    Disappearing I think has to do with giving yourself to the force at the moment of death... accepting death peacefully, as seems to be the concensus here.

    However, speaking from beyond is totally separate and I think tied in to Anakin somehow... But not in the way the Original Poster stated. And I DON'T think spirit talk is limited to jedi.

    I think Anakin's attachment to people he loves is so strong that he is somehow, unconciously, able to keep their identities in tact... His will alone keeps em in a force kinda limbo. I don't think he ever realizes this but Obiwan does. I am guessing he and Yoda figure this out in Episode 3. And I am willing to bet that we hear Shmi's voice (and this will be the WOW moment of Episode 3 cause all the fanboys think this is limited to Jedi only). Anakin will probably tell Ob1 that his mother still speaks to him in his dreams or when he meditates. Ob1 then tells Yoda and they piece the puzzle together.

    I think the ghosts in ESB and ROTJ are there for visual purposes and have nothing to do with disappearing or anything... Or perhaps we are seeing what Luke sees when he hears the voices. No one else can see them.

    Just MHO,
    Xandor
  18. darth_pooh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2002
    star 4
    "If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you can ever imagine..."

    If only Anakin (and not Luke) is the "Force Anchor" that allows these people to come back, could Obi Wan be playing on the irony above, that Anakin's connection to the force will allow Obi Wan to come back "through" Anakin's connectivity and yet aid "Luke" to victory at Anakin's expense?

    I wonder. ;)
  19. VvVJediMaster Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2002
    I think that ben's words to Vader in ANH " if you strike me down I shall become more powerful then you can possible imagine "
    was inspired by ancient christian beliefs.
    by comparison to obi wan's line is that of christ When Jesus tells the high priests of the temple that " I will tear down the temple and rebuild it in three days"

    Clearly jesus did not mean that he would literally knock the temple to the ground and return with a construction crew to repair it.
    His' words had a spiritual message hidden in it.
    He meant that by his death , his sacrifice he would change or convert the way things were done so that from that point on all men were given the chance to enter the kingdom of god. a grace that up until christ was never given to men.

    Obi wan made a similar sacrifice.
    ,When Obi wan Died it wasn't because vader was the better man actually obi wan first glanced at luke and the gang and knew that they would have been captured and held up his light saber and allowed vader to strike him down . he made a sacrifice , the ultimate sacrifice of giving up his life for his friends. Knowing that through that sacrifice he would become powerful by retaining his identity and in helping luke more then he could have if he was alive .
    He started helping luke right from the minute he was struck down. ( he told luke to run onto the ship right before a laser blast would have killed luke) When luke blew up the death star obi wan was with him right there in that small cockpit fighter .
    And he would even lead luke to yoda.
    He could only provide guidance however. As he tells luke in ESB " If you chose to face vader you will do it alone , I can not interfere"
    In the end Anakin sacrifices himself to save his son ,dies dissapears ( lucas says he does , he wote the story so he must be right) and retains his identity.
    So I think that sacrifice might play a key role in jedi retaining there identity after death. prehaps sacrifice for the chosen one.
    and the forfillment of the prophecy.

    Question is when does obi wan and yoda realize this is possible? episode three maybe , in some ancient scroll they find of the prophecy of the chosen one?
    because by ESB being able to retain identity seems to be common knowlege because yoda mentions it to luke as its just part of the skills he will obtain from the force " ( Through the force things you will see, the past , the future, old friends long gone ..)


  20. albyjam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    Dude, great insight.
  21. Warlord_Ken Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 4
    This is a very powerful thread. Let's keep it up as long as possible.
  22. lagg123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 1
    The point is this:

    1) Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to keep his identity after death. It has NEVER happened before. He barely did it... he didn't vanish and doesn't appear as a ghost...but is able to be heard. That is why they show Yoda instead of Anakin, because Yoda hears this and is perplexed. Whether Qui-Gon did this by accident or by some new knowledge he had learned before TPM, remains to be seen.

    2) Yoda clearly investigates this...maybe Qui-Gon teaches him from beyond the grave. Yoda learns how to do it and teaches Obi-Wan, AFTER all the other Jedi have died. Only Yoda and Obi-Wan will have this ability.

    3) Yoda, being older and wiser than Qui-Gon, masters the process, and perfects it. So that is why Yoda and Obi-Wan are able to vanish when they die.

  23. pennywise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2002
    star 1
    Hey hey, this is a great thread! :) It makes you think a bit, especially Blue Yoda's theory.

    I'm no good at speculating, but one thing is for sure: Qui-Gon Jinn will somehow be involved with the Jedi's ability to disappear - I'm pretty damn sure of it. Also like Blue Yoda said it might has something to do with the Chosen One's path towards balancing the Force.

    Now that I think about all this, I'm just baffled by how simple Star Wars is, and yet very complex at the same time. Honestly Mr. Lucas is a genius for patching up lost ends, and not to mention trying to keep an eye on continuity with the original trilogy. That's quite a task! Gosh who knows what he will come up in Episode III?
  24. BrendanWOR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 2
    An excellent thread this is. My personal opinion would have to agree with the first post in this thread. I'd say that the Jedi who have an input into Anakin and the prophecy are the ones who disappear.
  25. frozen_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 2
    Once again,

    Obi-wan and yoda will be killed in Episode 3 by vader, they will come back to life at the end of episode 3 and take the twins. When they die again in episode 4 and 5, they dissapear because they were really already dead. This is why Vader does not dissapear, this explains the line I will become more powerfull, explains the line from Vader :You should not have come back." Explains why Vader and the Emperor are not still looking for yoda and Obi-Wan. Explains Owen's line to Luke about Obi-Wan dieing at the say time as his (Luke's) father.

    Anakin kills Yoda to make his path to the dark side complete, then he fights Obi_wan, kills him but can't take it and jumps into the lava. The Emperor saves Anakin (now Vader) and Obi-Wan is brought back by the force to help yoda and luke and leia.

    The End.
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