AOTC reveals how Jedi disappear

>>>> Just one question. In ESB, when Luke insists on going to Bespin before completing his training, why then does Kenobi say he will be unable to help him?

I have a theory on this? I feel that Ben and Yoda never gave up on Anakin and they always knew that Vader would be the one to fulfill the prophecy by destroying Sidious. When Luke went off to face Vader in TESB, Kenobi says that he can?t help Luke, but what he really means is that he won?t help Luke. Remember that at some point Obi-Wan faces Anakin when Anakin turns to the dark side, and Obi-Wan attempts to bring Anakin back to the good side but is unsuccessful. If he, Obi-Wan?Anakin?s mentor, Anakin?s father-figure, Anakin?s closest friend?can?t bring Anakin back from the dark side, who can? Only family can bring Anakin back. Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Anakin slaughtered that clan of Tuskens because they tortured and killed Shmi, and this started Anakin down the dark path. Why not fight chaos with chaos? Why not put Anakin in that same position to bring Anakin back to the good side? Ben and Yoda train Luke as a Jedi so that Luke becomes a threat to Sidious. They realize that Sidious will want Luke eliminated just like Sidious had all the other Jedi purged, and Ben and Yoda are banking on Anakin?s feelings for his family?that Anakin will protect Luke from the Dark Lord. When Obi-Wan says that he can?t help Luke when Luke rushes off to face Vader, it?s because he?s testing Anakin to see if his plan will work. Kenobi knows that if he shows up to help Luke face Vader, this may conjure up feelings of hatred in Anakin and have the undesired effect. In other words, Vader may kill Luke if Vader were to see Obi-Wan aiding Luke, so Kenobi stays out of it. When Luke returns alive and well from his confrontation with Vader, Ben knows his plan has worked as Vader was unable to kill his son. Now the only thing left to do is put Luke in front of Sidious so that Vader is forced to decide between his master and his son.

 

Good discussion!

Here's my two sense, although it doesn't clear anything up.

A venerable if maverick Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council.

Why in the films and in the character description above, taken from the official site do they make it a point to tell you that Qui-Gon is a student of the living force and that's not a normal thing for a Jedi?

Possibly due to his study and meditation on the living force, when he dies he becomes part of it (as all Jedi do). Since his studies are dedicated to this aspect of the force, after sometime he begins to realize how to influence the living force and use it as a conduit to speak and reveal himself to other Jedi. That is why at the end of ROTJ Luke is the only one who can see the Jedi spirits, he is the only one trined to see and use the force.

Obviously, he can speak to other Jedi, as you see in AOTC Yoda is able to hear Qui-Gon, who has not yet mastered the ability, but is still able to feel the force and feels Anakins pain. Maybe Yoda's acknowledgement has something to do with the discovery as well.

What do you guys think? Why the distinction between the Unifying and Living force? Why can Yoda hear Qui-Gonn speaking in the present after his death? All will be answered in, gulp, 2005.

 

Admittedly, I haven't read this entire thread, but this is one of the better ones I've run across. The discussion here just brought this thought to mind for me.

While watching AoTC during the scene where Dooku is trying to recruit Obi Wan, I was a little puzzled by Dooku's response when Obi Wan said that Qui Gon would never go along with Dooku/ Dooku said that Qui Gon knew of the corruption, etc. He seemed to have an expression that read "I know something you don't know". If somehow Qui Gon had been able to communicate with Dooku after his death, that would add another dimension to that scene.

 

Very interesting theory BlueYoda. It's got me thinking and one of the best I have read. I wish Lucas would just clear this up on one of the future DVD's.

 

First of all, Qui-Gon says "Anakin! Anakin" , not "anakin noo!" The "noo!"-scream sounds like Yoda, but anyway. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the fact that you can hear vaders respirator-breath at the end of the "yoda-meditating-scene". I don't think many people picked up on that, but i did :]

Strange and complex theories btw...

 

baaaaaad radio, til the day i die!!

so why does ben tell luke in rotj that if he faces vader "now" - that he cannot help him?

why can't he be there to help him?
he never helps luke in the presence of vader or the emperor.
(unless you count in the x-wing at yavin)

so come on - either explain or point me to a post that does!

btw:
couldn't it be a lost art of the jedi?
stuffed away in a [gasp] - holocron?

i think we do not have enough info yet...
[starts chant of episode 3]

 

I like the original theory in this topic. But, when I heard the "prevent dying" line from Anakin in AOTC, I immediately thought it was foreshadowing Padme's ultimate fate. Note, she exclaims "Anakin!" when he makes the "prevent dying" declaration. If Padme dies in front of Anakin in Episode II, or gets mortally wounded, that would add resonance to his rescue of Luke.

 

Once you read the first orignial "Blue Yoda" post in this thread (page 1), you should read the part by "Bad Radio" right afterwards to understand the latest theory on whether disappearance and return are "skills" or are innate to Anakin!

 

Yeah Boean~
I could imagine a scene near the end of Episode III where Sidious and his new apprentice, Anakin, are confronted by Padme. Sidious would kill her with Sith lightning while Anakin watches on doing nothing. This would make the ROTJ scene with Luke being electricuted even more powerful. Especially during the closeups of Vader's helmet, where he's probably thinking of Padme.

 

Up

 

I think you are right on track on the point that when the Jedi who disappear die, they pass theie powers on to Luke. I have always believed this for some time. They also sort of attach themselves to Luke.

As for apearing as a ghost, they can do so BECAUSE they are attached to Luke. This is the same technique. Not two different ones.

Problems I have.
1. It is only the spitritual energy that passes. Not the physical midichlorians. The "midis" in my opinion should not be looked at as actual force power but a link to the force. Luke inadvertantley learns to channel the greater power he recieves through the physical link he already has. When this happens, his body probably adapts by producing more midis just as a marathon runner does with mitochondria. Coarse none of this really needs to be explained on film.

2. Boba Fett's role, as much as we'd like to see him in three, will depend completley on how much time passes between two and three, nn rapid acceleration for him.

3. I like the idea of Yoda and Ben, "helping" Anakin attach himself to Luke. However, I think Anakin just has a natural ability to do so. Much like some people must train for years to be any good at a sport, and some can just pick it up naturally when the try it out for the first time. Perhaps Anakin misses giving his powers to Luke but still manages to keep his concious on this plane of existence.

 

UP

 

Omg BlueYoda, that would be totally awesome! However, i don't think that's likely to happen since i don't think Anakin would let him kill her. But perhaps he does kill her without ánakins knowledge, but Anakin finds out later on.. hmmm ..

 

>>I've asked a lot of casual Star Wars fans if they heard Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC and I was surprised that a lot of them actually missed it.<<

The reason no one can hear Qui Gon shout is because everyone's still clapping from seeing Anakin rip the sandpeople some new ones.

 

Absolutely great thread!

My 2 cents worth: there is probably no need for Anakin to ever be aware either of the ability to disappear or the ability to retain one's identity.

After all, as suggested by TPM, Anakin was the physical manifestation of the Force itself, so when he once again becomes one with the Force (ie. dies at the end of ROTJ), he'll know everything anyone has ever known, for all those who have died before him have also become one with the Force along with their knowledge and memories. Likewise, since Anakin is for all practical purposes the Force itself, he has no trouble maintaining his identity, for why would the Force lose its own identity?

 

Up - and Read the Blue Yoda and Bad Radio Postings on the first page! - two of the best postings I've seen in months!!!

 

To clear up some questions about Anakin disappearing in ROTJ:
Click here
and here

As he lay dying, Vader ceased to be. Anakin Skywalker returned. He asked his son to remove the cumbersome, fearsome mask that had concealed his face for decades. His mask and life support removed, Anakin looked upon Luke for the first and last time. He then died, his body disappearing into the light side of the Force. Luke burned the dark armor that had encased Anakin's crippled body in a quiet funeral pyre on the forest moon of Endor that night.

 

No Jedi disappear during the Arena scenes. I looked carefully. I even saw Obi attempt to take the pulse of a slain jedi.

I will have to ponder the theory... sounds interesting. However, why does Anakin appear at the end of ROTJ? If he fulfilled his role as the chosen one, would he (and Yoda & Obi) still have to "stick around". The business of the Chosen One is completed, is their any need of them now?

Still, cool theory.

 

Luke being the chosen one would be an interesting concept......but what about shmi's immaculate conception?

 

sory to just but into this conversation here from nowhere but the in the last post there were two links. The first one brought me back to starwars.com with some guy talking about why qui-gon didnt dissapear. He said the key line is the "if you strike me..."
Why the emphasis on "strike me"?
just a thought

but anyway great thread!
really like the theories!

EDIT: the line i was referring to
"The key line to understanding this is when Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader, 'If you strike me down...' And it'll be explained as we go along."

 

Bad Radio

That's quite an awesome theory!

The only thing that I'd question is the focus on midichlorians when it comes to becoming "more powerful than you could possibly imagine." I don't think they're supposed to be "mystical microbes"- just tiny life forms living inside our cells; like mitochondria, as you point out. The idea of 'teleporting' them to someone else just doesn't sound right to me at all.

As living things, they generate the Force (Living Force.) The Living Force from every life form then "binds" with the Living Force from every other life form to create one big Unifying Force. Someone with a lot of midichlorians therefore has a "stronger" Living Force with them.

My take on it is that when they die, the Jedi simply become one with the one Unifying Force. Because the focus of the Jedi Council is apparently on the bigger picture, seeing into the past, the future etc., not having their own opinions and so on, upon death they simply become one with the One Unifying Force, transcending time, space etc. shaping destinies, but not able to actually exert a direct influence on the here and now.

Qui Gon, however, was more focussed on the Living Force, the here and now, and managed to retain his identity to some degree- as seen in AOTC when he returns from beyond the grave in some form and Yoda hears him. I think that his mastery of the Living Force must be the key to his retaining his identity after death and Yoda being able to hear him.

The disappearing thing could connect with this- if rather than passsing on their midichlorians to someone else, they have learnt to manipulate their own Living Force and actually pass it on, going back to more midichlorians=stronger Living Force, this would effectively be the same thing as your theory except without having to teleport midichlorians across. (Also ties in with the early drafts "May the Force of others be with you/protect you.)


I think the "more powerful than you could possibly imagine" line is to do with the different attitudes towads the Force of the Jedi and the Sith. The Sith think of the Force as a tool or source of their own power, while the Jedi think of the Force as the ultimate power, and they are tools of the Force itself. In giving themselves to the Force like Obi Wan does, he becomes one with the Force, and therefore effectively IS the Force- he gives up his body and his life in return for this "power."
I think Vader simply couln't imagine that kind of power, because he is so focussed on himself- as evidenced by the fact that he is kept alive by his robotic suit- that he simply couldn't imagine that giving up his life and body could result in him becoming more powerful. As far as he's concerned, death is an obstacle, something to be cheated or held back or avoided. Compare this with Yoda's line on his deathbed- "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong. Twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall. That is the way of things- the way of the Force."


As for whether Vader disappears in ROTJ- this is a bit of a funny one. Apparently, the published version of the screenplay was changed around 1995-96. I can't remember word for word, but originally it talked about Luke burning Vaders body. In the later edition, it said he burnt Vaders suit...

 

I think Anakin's line about keeping people from dying simply foreshadows his own future in the mask and iron lung thing. He somehow figures out a way to keep himself alive after nearly dying in Episode III. He's getting off to a good start with that new arm!

 

"A commendable explanation. That would explain then why Anakin looks like he is about 45 at the end of ROTJ. The dark side left his body. And through this it allows Jedi to dissapear and retain their form"


just to add a quick note, I thought that at the end of ROTJ, Anakin appears as a ghost with both arms intact. How can he reappear seemily aged 45 complete when he loses his arm aged 20?

 

He was also missing the scars etc. and wearing Jedi robes (which incidentally look nothing like the Jedi robes he wears in AOTC...)

 

I think Kenobi and Yoda dissapear because they are pure and void of the dark side. After all other jedi are killed, Yoda will grab his favorite old padawan by the ear and say hey boy we were stupid. You can't fight the dark side without giving into the dark side itself. They have fewer midichlorians than Vader and the Emporer, however if they clense their soles of violence they will become "more powerful than you could possible imagne." I don't think Anakin keeps anyone from dying except Luke. That line in AOTC was just another promise not kept, like saying he would come back and free the slaves on Tatooine in TPM. I also think the Christ references to Anakin are apples and oranges. Virgin birth is common in myths and personaly I feel Kenobi and Yoda are more Christ like than Anakin, who only in the end realizes his lifelong crimes.