AOTC reveals how Jedi disappear

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by BlueYoda, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Manifest_Lun Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2002
    Who's to say that Anakin brings balance to the force by helping Luke kill the emperor?
    My theory is that the jedi council is wrong in what they believe "balance of the force" to be. Balance to me would be an equal of both light and dark, hence by wiping out the jedi, leaving no one but Obi Wan and Yoda to counteract Vader and Palpatine he brings true balance.
  2. MokkanMX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    If this has already been posted, then I'm sorry. I skimmed as well as I could, but I have a theory. What is the most effective way to kill off insects? Bait them to one spot and then unleash hell. Hmm? Anakin, after being seduced to the dark side, lures all of the Jedi to a large battle on a planet (similar to the Geonosis situation), making way for Palpatine, or Sidious, or Dooku, or whoever the hell (could be Tarkin for all I know) uses the Death Star and wipes them all out. AND, since it's never mentioned in the original trilogy, the planet could perhaps be Naboo, meaning that Padme could also be killed. Just a theory, based on the fact that that WOULD be more effective than sending one man throughout the galaxy hunting the Jedi down one by one.
  3. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Who's to say that Anakin brings balance to the force by helping Luke kill the emperor?

    George Lucas
  4. Darth_Overlord Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I was just watching A New Hope again while pondering this question, and it dawned on me that AOTC DOES reveal why some Jedi disappear. They are all guiding the Chosen One to fulfilling the prophesy.

    Qui-Gon is apparently the first Jedi ever to communicate after death. His message was "Anakin! Anakin!" trying to stop him from slaughtering the Tuskens. This is the turning point in Anakin's destiny. From this point on, he journeys down the path of the Dark Side, not the will of the Force. Qui-Gon was sent to turn him back, but he failed.

    In Episode III, Obi-Wan most likely tries to turn him back and fails. In Episode IV, he confronts him again with the intent of turning him. When he sees Luke, he thinks, "If I cannot bring him back to the Light, perhaps his children can." He then gives himself up freely.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda both work through Luke to help Anakin fulfill his destiny.

    Therefore, Jedi reappear to lead the Chosen One towards bringing balance to the Force, either directly or indirectly, even after death. Qui-Gon didn't disappear because Anakin didn't stray from his destiny until the Tusken Slaughter.

    Any thoughts on this?
  5. Iwannabekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 1
    thanks man you really answer me alot of questions. thanks one more time
  6. dashpanther Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
  7. frozen_jedi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 2
    Dissapearing and re-appering have nothing to do with each other. All beings are illumians. -Yoda ESB Illumians beings are we, not this crude matter. So, the ghostly images are what people in star wars really are, all of them. Dissapering is something different. I think that if you die, then re-materalize then get killed again, the second time you will dissapear because you were allready dead anyway.

    So, vader kills Obi-wan and Yoda in epIII, then at the end of the movie we see that they re-materalized by the force, that way vader and thew emperror think that obi and yoda are dead and quit looking for them.
  8. 0Bl-WAN Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2002
    star 2
    Blue Yoda, I somewhat agree but I can one-up you.

    Anakins midichlorians are "off the charts." That pretty much means they are unmeasurable. Yoda doesn't have a count that high, but it's not even implied that it's close. Anakin may have 1,000,000 times the midi's Yoda has as far we know.

    Let's just say that Anakin, being the human incarnation of midicholorians, can see anyone with whom he had a very important bond. Yoda can't do this. The only reason Yoda heard Qui-Gon is because Yoda was feeling Anakin's thoughts. It was actually Anakin that heard Qui-Gon.

    Luke, being the son of Anakin, may have less midichlorians. But, he may have 500,000 times as many as Yoda. He also has the ability his father has. He uses it to see Obi-Wan and Yoda...and later, Anakin.

    Let's say, all along, Darth Vader can still communicate with his dead friends/loved ones. When Vader sits in his chamber with his helmet raised in ESB, is he talking to Padme?

    We have heard that Natalie Portman will appear in the ROTJ DVD. Surely she will appear as a "ghost" to Luke at the end, and stand with Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin. Don't be surprised to hear that Liam Neison and Pernilla August are filming something for that too.
  9. Rilina Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Great thread! I like parts of Bad Radio's and Blue Yoda's theories a lot--and it's nice to see theories that consider a whole range of facts (instead of trying to base a theory on one line of conversation).
  10. YodaCloner Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    that is awesome. i agree
  11. Nunquam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 1
    I think it has something to do with the Force being out of balance, on or before TPM. With the Force out of balance, Qui-Gon either can't or won't "become one with the Force."

    George has said in interviews that the disappearing is something Yoda discovers and teaches to OWK. (Notice in TPM, no one remarks on the fact that QGJ didn't disappear...maybe no Jedi has.) Perhaps disappearing allows Yoda and Ben to retain more of their individuality and allows them to straddle the gap between the living and the dead (for lack of a better word).
  12. Qui-Gon_Jim Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    Nunquam, I feel that you may be the closest to being right here... for whatever it matters.

    I 'think' that being able to disappear is an ability that is learned once a Jedi reaches a certain height in attunement with the Force. And since OW and Yoda know that Vader is Luke's father and that there are no other Jedi left to train him, then the only way to help Luke is to be able to appear to him in great times of need. OR the midichlorians rapidly eat away the flesh and form a shape like a swarming bunch of gnats when Luke squints hard enough...? :)
  13. Clone-77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    "We are luminous beings, not this crude matter"

    -Yoda while training Luke
  14. kampilan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    So, midichlorians can be absorbed by other Force-sensitives and make them even stronger? Just like the "immortals" in the 'Highlander' Quickenings? Or in Jet Li's "The One"?
    The theories explained in the first posts were excellent and I hope they are close to Mr. Lucas' final explaination, hopefully in EPIII.
    The Boba Fett/Anakin relationship sounded cool but if he could remember Boba way back in AOTC then he would have to remember why he's been kissing Palpatine's pruny old ass all these years in the first place? I'd love to see Boba disintegrate Mace!
    It'd be great to see Padme, Shmi, and Qui-Gon added to the end of ROTJ along with the Big Three.
    I agree that Naboo, Palpy's homeworld, would have to be destroyed. Kamino? Would there be a need for cloning tech after the Clone Wars? EU books might but...
    Qui-Gon learning from Maul that it was Palpy himself as TPM before being gutted was cool but he'd have told Obi Wan instead of Dooku, right?
  15. DarthRaptor Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    You know, this is something I wondered about after seeing AOTC, but forgot about it until I read this thread. As far as I can remember, only two Jedi in the SW trilogy vanished when they died: Obi-Wan and Yoda. I don't think Vader did. His body was still there when Luke burned it on Endor. Qui-Gon's certainly didn't. And, no, none of the Jedi that I saw die in the arena vanished. So, I think there is more to this than meets the eye. Lucas has already said that this question of who vanishes when they die would be answered in the PT. I'm guessing it's still to come in Ep III.

    One thing I've always noticed and wondered about, though. When, Ben vanishes in ANH, is it me, or is Vader surprised at this? After he vanishes, Vader kind of pokes the remaining robe around, like "Hey! Where'd he go?" I think that, when Obi-Wan told Vader that he would become more powerful than he could imagine, he was giving him new information. I don't think Anakin will ever know about this aspect of Jedi dying. Obi-Wan, however, will somehow. Personally, though all these theories are interesting, I'm waiting until Ep III to see if Lucas gives us the answer to this one.

    DR
  16. Master_Sifo-Dyas Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    with regards to the jedi disappearing,GL mentioned in an article in the latest STARLOG magazine #300 page 42-43 That Anakin did not have or know the abillity to stay around after death ( as usual I have no idea what GL is getting at here ) up until the point he killed the sandpeople and heard Qui-gons voice. Can anyone speculate why?
  17. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Clone-77, the actual quote is:
    "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
    - Yoda

    I know this is nitpicking, but I can't stand Yoda being misquoted. ;)
  18. Sciwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    >>>BTW it states in the ROTJ novelization that Anakin disappears also.<<<

    The ROTJ novelization also says that Owen is Obi Wan's brother. We all know how that turned out. Anakins body never disapears in THE MOVIE. Obi Wan vanishes upon contact with Vaders saber. Yoda vanishes immeditly following his death. When Vader dies his body just lays there and doesn't go "poof" into thin air. When we see Vaders armor on the barbi it's filled out, suggesting a body.


    The ROTJ novelization does NOT say Anakin disappears. It says Vader dies. The script says Vader ? Anakin Skywalker ? dies. The ROTJ novelization says that Darth Vader's BODY is on the pyre. Not his armor.

    Same with the screenplay.

  19. Sciwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    I was a little dismayed to see the stuff on the official website, both the bio of Vader and Sansweet's comments, that "Anakin" disappeared and Luke just burned the armor.

    It flies in the sense of internal story logic, and it defies three things ? the novelization (not strictly canon, but close) the screenplay and Return of the Jedi itself.

    I posted above what the novelization says. Vader dies. Nothing more. I just re-read the screenplay that was included in The Art of The Return of the Jedi, and I reread the annotated screenplay. Someone above said the screenplays after 1995 say Luke burned the armor. The annotated screenplay came out after 1995, and it does NOT say this.

    It says that Darth Vader ? Anakin Skywalker, is on the pyre. It says BOTH. So even those who believe that the armor is Darth Vader, the cyborg is Darth Vader, but the flesh is Anakin and Anakin disappeared, well, not according to the script.

    Finally, the idea that Anakin disappeared didn't come about because he appeared to Luke along with Yoda and Ben. No, it came about because people forget what they saw originally in the film when they get a video tape. The original videos didn't zoom in properly, and when you see Luke and Vader, after he dies, you see a shot at Luke over Vader's back. In "normal" TV aspect ratio, the only thing you can see is the very edge of the breath screen, no head.

    But in the full screened image, confirmed with yet another viewing, of Jedi, in the upper left corner, there is Vader's pale, dented cabeza. His head. He hasn't faded ANYWHERE.

    People jumped on me in another thread for saying Lucas was deluding himself. But I think he is a revisionist. it's his own work to revise, but I don't like it. I think it tampers with stuff done when he was more comfortable and sure of himself.

    If Sansweet is saying Anakin disappears, but the movie, the novel, the script all say he is there, what is going on here?

    I saved the "internal story logic" argument for the last. OK.

    Luke has redeemed his father, saved him His father thanks him, and dies. Let's pretend he does fade away. Proof to Luke that his father is redeemed. What then would you have us believe? The Death Star is exploding all around him, and Luke doesn't haul butt. No, Luke stops and drags his father's CLOTHES onto the shuttle? He possibly goes BACK for the helmet? That he TAKES his father's CLOTHES, props the helmet on top of them and then has a funeral service, a cremation, for an empty suit?

    When did Luke get to be so dumb? if the armor is EMPTY, why bother with it at all? Wouldn't the explosion of the Death Star provide a much more complete cremation for the clothes?

    The insistance on Anakin fading, I'm sorry, takes an already melodramatic movie and makes it plain silly.

    I think, however, that this is the direction Lucasfilm is headed in. Nothing in Attack of the Clones tells us what happens here, but it gives us a hint how Yoda is going to come up with the idea.

    The novelization stuff is interesting. Whether Yoda is intruding only on Anakin's thoughts, or he is supposed to also hear Qui-Gon is up for debate. But he hears the voice, and the novelization makes it clear that Yoda thinks it isn't a memory, it's a present time occurence that is a surprise.

    I'll have to pick it up.
  20. Sciwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    Sorry, I tried to edit my post just a touch, and it kept coming back up unedited. So I'm posting the edits as a new reply instead.
    ???????????????????????????????

    I was a little dismayed to see the stuff on the official website, both the bio of Vader and Sansweet's comments, that "Anakin" disappeared and Luke just burned the armor.

    It flies in the sense of internal story logic, and it defies three things ? the novelization (not strictly canon, but close) the screenplay and Return of the Jedi itself.

    I posted above what the novelization says. Vader dies. Nothing more. I just re-read the screenplay that was included in The Art of The Return of the Jedi, and I reread the annotated screenplay. Someone above said the screenplays after 1995 say Luke burned the armor. The annotated screenplay came out after 1995, and it does NOT say this.

    It says that Darth Vader ? Anakin Skywalker, is on the pyre. It says BOTH. So even those who believe that the armor is Darth Vader, the cyborg is Darth Vader, but the flesh is Anakin and Anakin disappeared, well, not according to the script.

    Finally, the idea that Anakin disappeared didn't come about because he appeared to Luke along with Yoda and Ben. No, it came about because people forget what they saw originally in the film when they get a video tape. The original videos didn't zoom in properly, and when you see Luke and Vader, after he dies, you see a shot at Luke over Vader's back. In "normal" TV aspect ratio, the only thing you can see is the very edge of the breath screen, no head.

    But in the full, widescreen image (confirmed with yet another viewing) of Jedi, in the upper left corner, there is Vader's pale, scarred dented cabeza. His head. He hasn't faded ANYWHERE.

    People jumped on me in another thread for saying Lucas was deluding himself. But I think he is a revisionist. It's his own work to revise, but I don't like it. I think it tampers with stuff done when he was more comfortable and sure of himself.

    Sansweet says Anakin disappears, the official site bio says Anakin disappears. The movie, the novel, the script all say he is there. What is going on here?

    I saved the "internal story logic" argument for the last. OK.

    Luke has redeemed his father, saved him His father thanks him, and dies. Now let's pretend he does fade away. Wouldn't it be proof to Luke that his father is redeemed? What then would you have us believe? The Death Star is exploding all around him, and Luke doesn't haul butt. No, Luke stops and drags his father's CLOTHES onto the shuttle? He possibly goes BACK for the helmet? That he TAKES his father's CLOTHES, props the helmet on top of them and then has a funeral service, a cremation, for an empty suit?

    When did Luke get to be so dumb? If the armor is EMPTY, why bother? Wouldn't the explosion of the Death Star provide a much more complete cremation for the clothes?

    Think also that Vader is a CYBORG to some degree, and we'll probably never know how much. But the helmet is metal. The armor itself is metal. We don't know if Vader deflected Han's blasters by the Force or because of his armor, cyborg hand (or some combination thereof.) But I have serious doubts that a funeral pyre will consume the armor and the helmet. I think a funeral pyre would get inside the suit and consume flesh therein. The novelization adds a few lines about a dark spirit seeming to come out of the armor through the vents.

    Luke burned flesh. It's the only thing that makes ANY sense. And that final act freed Anakin somehow. I won't speculate on how.

    The insistance on Anakin fading, I'm sorry, takes an already melodramatic movie and makes it plain silly.

    I think, however, that this is the direction Lucasfilm is headed in. Nothing in Attack of the Clones tells us what happens here, but it gives us a hint how Yoda is going to come up with the idea.

    The AOTC novelization stuff is interesting. I'll have to get it. Whether Yoda is intruding only on Anakin's thoughts, or he is supposed to also hear Qui-Gon is up for debate. But he hears the voice, and the n
  21. jedimaster5615 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 2
    I thought that in the novel Yoda heard those things when he was "probing the dark side."
  22. vampire Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    Excellent post SciWalker. I agree with you that GL should stop messing with what's been done. He's so obsessed w/ old "b" movies he's editing SW till it becomes some cheesy b flick.

    Remember in Misery (by Stephen King) Annie Wilks describes the "Chapter plays" she watched as a child and jumping up during one sequel and shouting "THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!! HE DIDN'T GET OUT OF THE COCK-A-DOODIE CAR!" Well that's going be StarWars fans when they see StarWars / ESB / ROTJ by the time ol' georgie gets done with it

    HE DIDN'T FADE OUT OF THE ARMOR!!! and that didn't happen.. or that... or that.. sheez! or THAT!

    gl is blowing it. by the end of ROTJ there's going to be a whole chorus line of "force ghosts" hanging out. Hell, let's add jar jar to the group and add a few more musical numbers like in ROTJ (SE) everybody loved that addition :mad:
  23. sidious1 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 6
    BlueYoda I like your theory,but myself and my friends think that if a Jedi dies naturally then they can return,it is also the way when a Jedi chooses his own fate as Obi Wan did in ANH then he can return thus the "if you strike me down...."BUT if a Jedi is slain then he cannot return as Qui Gon didn't in AOTC.REMEMBER if all the Jedi that were slain at the end of AOTC could come back as spirits then you would have Jedi popping up all over the place and as we know that is not the case.Feel free to argue this between yourselves as I am outta here!
  24. Padawan92 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2001
    star 4
    This is one idea that I think is very possible. It makes sence now. But I want to wait until I see Episode 3.
  25. JediHPDrummer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    Hey whats up SW Fans. Just right now, The Force.net put up something pretty interesting about dissapearing jedi. It's actually taken from the Star Wars Databank of Yoda on starwars.com

    Read this- While meditating, Yoda had felt a traumatic event befall young Anakin Skywalker. At that very moment, he also heard the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master slain a decade previous. It was impossible for a Jedi to retain his identity after becoming one with the Force, yet he had heard it.
    It was another dangerous and disturbing puzzle for Yoda to solve while the Republic collapsed around him.

    Hmmmm. This is intereting, i have a feeling there is going to be a explanation on how to come back as a jedi and i think qui gon is going to explain. And we are finnaly going to find out how these jedi come back.
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