AOTC/ROTS Complete Scores **Official Thread**

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by jedi_master_ousley, Mar 8, 2003.

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  1. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    The Ultimate Edition soundtrack, which is what Daft linked to, was originally released in 2000. :p

    I'm not sure that "high energy" describes it. More like "refusing to die" :p
  2. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    Yes, we are a stingy lot. :p

    And I must be wrong, so move along.
  3. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    I often wonder what tracks Williams composed that never actually made it to these films. Alternative scores and whatnot. Usually you get those sorts of bonus scores on these CDs.
  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Well, IDK for the prequels, but the OT:SE CDs have a fair amount of music that never made it into any release.
  5. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    That's what I was thinking -- I'm sure there has to be music that never made it to the films. Or just alternative versions like on the SE CDs.
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    hmm. Thinking about it now, I remember hearing there was an alternate DOTF.
  7. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    There's bound to be some music that never makes it to the films. Most likely those are cues or tracks that score scenes that hit the cutting room floor at the very end of the editing process (so when the score was created, that scene was still in there, and this got scored).
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    I seem to remember hearing that there was something besides the tracked TPM music for the Battle Of Geonosis.
  9. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Jun 29, 2003
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    I remember being peeved many years ago when they decided to use rehashed TPM scores throughout the Geonosis battle rather than the awesometastic Confederacy Theme on the AOTC CD.

    And alas, they used the so-called "theme" for Anakin's march on the Temple in ROTS. The only time the theme was actually used for the Confederacy was in the old 2003-2005 TV show.

    I know there was a Droid Factory track floating around the internet for a while, but I can't seem to find it at the moment...
    Last edited by Barriss_Coffee, Sep 16, 2012
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Confederacy theme? All I'm aware of is the TF March.
  11. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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  12. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

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    Which part of the Droid Factory? I know that there was the Conveyor Belt special track from the AOTC soundtrack, so is that possibly it? I haven't watched that movie in a long time, so I might be wrong.

    And I would imagine that those two tracks would be similar. 1) there's the same general theme between both, and 2) it's easy to reuse some of the same material and just rehash it with a few extra cues to make a new track.
  13. Sure_leia Jedi Knight

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I wish they'd do a full scale set of discs for all of the music and when/how it was played in the films. The OT SE soundtracks were great, and they look great in my CD collection, but you put them next to the minimal discs of the PT and those seem to pale in comparison. I find there's a lot of redundancy on the PT soundtracks, not a recurring musical thematic scene, just plain same song under different titles. It's a shame because some of the music in the PT are really great, maybe even better than the OT (did I just say that?), especially in how they seem to create an epic scale for the movies. Just IMHO.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Whoops. I'd forgotten that the "mystery theme"=the Confederacy theme.
  15. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 18, 2009
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    Nope, there was never any music composed for the Battle of Geonosis.
  16. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Actually no. Except for a scene in Return of the Jedi, there was never music composed for unused scenes in the whole Saga, if I'm not mistaken. By the time Williams writes the music, the main bulk of the editing has been done. Some scenes are trimmed, and therefore, sections of the music are cut, but nothing more.
  17. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Huh. Sounds like they were trying for the non-musicality of the Podrace, maybe? And then, you know, messed it up :p
  18. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Nope, they decided to have tracked music early on.
    In Episode I, the music for the last battle was heavily edited after it was recorded -Williams kept re-writing it until the recordind sessions, but the editing changed after that, and the music was heavily altered therefore.
    When Williams started to score Episode II, the Geonosis sequence was virtually non-existent (if I'm not mistaken, the early action sequences were finished and locked, but the last ones hadn't even began). Based on experience, they decided not to compose music for that sequence and let the editors use existing tracks to create the soundtrack. (Williams had to leave the project in February 2002 to do Minority Report).
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  19. BrachioInGen Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 5, 2012
    If I may add to this as well, You are correct about Williams and his chosing not to write the Geonosis battles in episode II. Everything I've seen has led me to believe (and to a degree suppose) that Williams was not wishing to repeat the displeasure of what happened on Episode I.

    His amount of work that went into TPM was so deep and elaborate, to then see how poorly it was handled in the film, led him to feel "artistically betrayed" and when it came time for Episode II, he did it more due to his contractual obligation as his by no means had the same time he had for Episode I.

    His work on Episode II is, unfortunately, the weakest of the series from this lack of time and I would hate to say this, lack of confidence in the project. Someone asked many pages ago about music that was written but not used... the prequels are in essence testament to how much Williams can write and how much just will NOT be used.

    His work on other films in 2001-2002 show how much time he had available and in the case of Minority Report specifically how his work overlapped. One need only know about the friendship between Spielberg and Lucas to realize the Conveyor Belt sequence was inspired directly by the Car Manufacturing sequence from Minority Report and the musical similarities are very strong.

    Similarly, the "Chasing the Snitch" music from Chamber of Secrets bears a great similarity to "Zam the Assassin." Also, the Love Theme's B section is a direct lift from A. I. Artificial Intelligence. I won't accuse the maestro of cheating or stealing, as it's all his work and as a professional he knows very well how to reuse material and adjust it and evolve musical ideas, but it just shows how much in this time period Williams was in demand and how some of his works did over lap.
    Last edited by BrachioInGen, Nov 6, 2012
  20. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 18, 2009
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    Although you make some good points, I disagree with some of your opinions. I'm tired of this idea of the music of Episode II being the weakest of the Saga... I've never seen an interview of Williams saying that he felt artistically betrayed (really, was Episode I the first movie in which Williams' music was significally edited? Was it SO chopped up as some fans like to believe?). And I hate the idea of Williams merely writing his music for Episodes II-III because of contractual obligations, without any real passion, because again, that's the feeling of the fans. Williams always seems to be truly dedicated to whatever he writes and I think it's insulting to say that he just didn't bother to try hard.

    And a final point... why do you think the Conveyor Belt sequence was inspired by the sequence from Minority Report and not the other way around?
    (the original music composed for both is similar in a way, but in any case, they didn't use it for Episode II, did they?)
  21. BrachioInGen Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Perhaps I should rephrase: I sequence of "on the conveyor belt" was inspired by Minority Report. Not knowing how far in advance Williams had begun work on Minority Report it could be very much idle speculation which inspired which cue, but the one in Minority Report being a much more developed and solid piece seems to make it be the more obvious choice, also that we kno the Conveyor Belt music was a last minute recording.

    As for the Conveyor Belt music not being used, that was a mixture of Ben Burtt I'd imagine who has some what of a vendetta against what he would seem to qualify as over-usage of music in Star Wars.

    As for the Williams interview, I know I read it somewhere... perhaps it was an article in FilmScoreMonthly but those words "artistically betrayed" always stuck with me.

    As for Episode II being without soul, I would not go so far. I actually enjoy many moments from Episode II, but that does not by any means make it anything but the weakest of the Saga. Episode III was far more developed and there is a definite shift in how they made the films.

    In Episode I, Williams wrote a plethora of music which was cut, unused, moved in small increments or in the case of the finale, butchered, after spending what must have been a great deal of time working on the score.

    Episode II afforded him less time so excluding certain melodies, Williams wrote on auto-pilot. He almost seemed to expect that his music would be moved around, go unused, and in the case of the Battle of Geonosis, simply said he wasn't going to write anything.

    Episode III, however, based on the cue and slate numbers, was thuroughly planned. Almost every bit of tracked music was slated for and planned ahead of time (allowing Williams to focus his time more wisely on needed music and leave those tracked parts to the editors). This gave him a lot more control over what he could spend time on and focus on and thus the overall quality of the score is higher. That's not to say there weren't changes, there are always changes, but he at least knew ahead of time "I don't have to write anything for the Crash Landing" etc.

    Even masterpieces like ET and Jurassic Park had many edits made. For example, in ET the music of Elliot teaching ET about 'Toys' is lifted from Elliot saying goodbye to ET as he lies in the freezer (very different scenes but yet it works perfectly).

    In Jurassic Park, 'Goat Bait' is unused, the cue was meant to play as they first approach the Tyrannosaurus paddock. Also when Ellie says "Mr. Hammond I think we're back in business!" and the Raptor explodes out at her, that whole sequence up to Muldoon hunting the Alpha Female is all tracked music instead of the cue Williams wrote.

    William's, I'm sure, is generally aware his music will be adjusted and accepts that, I think that's also why he writes so much so there are choices depending on the final product's needs. But at the same time, his work on Episode I was so fully butchered in the final act its hard to not be keenly aware of a shift in Williams work on the film.

    I should say he is a great friend of Lucas and Spielberg, and that contract or not, he always puts himself into a project, but on Episode II he was definitely on autopilot at times.

    For example, one of the most memorable moments in Episode II is the revelation at the end of the Clone Army. "Victory? Victory you say? No. No Victory. The shroud of the dark side of the Force has fallen. Begun, this clone war, has." or what have yo...that whole cue for the reveal of the troopers was rescored to what you hear in the fim. The original was a bit more...chaotic...and not necessarily thematic... but he went back and re-wrote it with the Imperial march.

    I just think that despite it's strengths and how much I can enjoy listening to Episode II, it's still the weakest of the saga, which is like saying "this diamond isn't as nice as that diamond" but still lol

    Oddly of note, the Credits to Episode II (with the updated finale and extended credits with the reprise of Anakin's theme) is by far my favourite stretch of music William's has ever written.
    Last edited by BrachioInGen, Nov 6, 2012
  22. BrachioInGen Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    I can't edit my post again but here is the Original Finale to Star Wars Episode II I spoke breifly of... its not bad but it definitely doesn't have the power of the re-write
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  23. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 18, 2009
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    But you don't have any real argument to say that the conveyor belt sequence was inspired by Minority Report,right? The music of Episode II was recorded earlier (January/February 2002... don't know what you mean with "last minute recording") and Minority Report was done after that. So, obviously, the "original" one was Episode II. Similarly, "Chasing the Snitch" (Harry Potter 2) was based on Episode II, BUT NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND? Neither of these examples show that Williams reused music for Episode II -it's the other way around!

    And, although I don't have any affection for Ben Burtt, please, don't think he's the ultimate bad guy here! The music of the Conveyor Belt was replaced by different music (more thematic, which indicates that Lucas wanted a different approach), not unused in favour of sound effects. You can say that about the Arena scene, but not this scene.

    (And incidentally, many of the tracking during the prequels indicates that, at times, Lucas wanted a more thematic approach than Williams: see the partial replacement of "Palpatine Instructs Anakin" in Episode III)

    I feel that all those comments are highly subjective, to be honest. I always felt that the music in Episode I wasn't treated so poorly. Up until the final battle, it contains a few small edits, but most of the music is in its right place. (for example, almost every track of Harry Potter 3 was edited -yet, nobody seems aware of this. And don't get me started on The Lost World....)

    I find that saying Williams wrote episode II on auto-pilot is just an insult to his work, much greater than editing and tracking his music on the film (after all, the music is just a tool that has to serve the movie, something that fans don't want to understand). It's highly subjetive and therefore, I don't agree with you.

    Also, I don't get what you mean by saying that Episode III was more thoroughly planned. In both cases, the tracked music was slated for and planned ahead of time, based on the slate numbers. In both cases, he knew ahead of time that he wasn't going to write music for certain scenes, giving him more time on other moments. I can't see why you feel both cases are different.

    And as for the original version of the finale... Yes, I prefer the current version, but that doesn't meant that the original one was written on auto-pilot! I also prefer the final version of the Binary Sunset, but you woudln't say that the original one was written on auto-pilot, would you?
    (this is another case of Lucas wanted a more thematic-driven approach to a scene than Williams).

    Anyways, a pleasure to discuss about these matter without having to deal with the Lucas-hate constantly! Thanks! :)
  24. oierem Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Oh, and as for the "artistically betrayed" bit... I've also hear about it earlier, but never saw the interview. And it feels so un-Williams like to say something like that, I just can't believe it until I see the interview with my own eyes.
  25. BrachioInGen Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    I think you're confusing my point. I didn't say that he lifted most of his material for Episode II, just that in that time he didn't have a whole lot of time to develop scores and that many of them bear similarities to each-other.

    As for auto-pilot, auto-pilot for a composer like Williams is by far a different animal than say James Horner. William's writing a score because it needs music and he can't, as he says in his interviews "stare at the ceiling" for very long. That's not to say the music isn't intricate or at a great professional level, but Episode II and COS both suffered from the inability to spend a lot of time developing them and working on them (although William's apparently couldn't stop writing for COS once he got near the end of the sessions lol).

    I don't mean to argue and I think you take my points as DIGS against Williams which they are not.

    Burt, however, I will admit to not liking. Between his removal of the Rebel Fanfare from the Special Edition of A New Hope, his kinda backhanded way of trying to usurp the Arena sequence from William's EXCELLENT cue (instead filling it with crowd SFX he recorded at some football game and pitch shifting it around to get the desired energy). His trade off, according to Lucas, being the Conveyor Belt where he tried to write sfx driven 'music.' I get that Burtt's the unsung hero, but in all the interviews he seems so smug.

    As for Episode II I've never seen slate numbers showing any tracking, but it has been some time since I was active in the community. Episode I, of course, had none.

    As for hack jobs, you are correct that there are worse than Episode I but I get the feeling Episode I was a labor of love. It would be as if someone took Sorcerer's Stone and replaced all the quidditch music with something else for example.

    If i had my PC, which I don't since it decided to do a private performance of Katy Perry's song 'FireWorks' last week, I'd try to find the articles I've saved and I swear I still have the one where Williams is discussed or quoted as saying how displeased he was with the final product of Episode I's score as used in the film. That he knew he'd produced and worked as hard as he could the best product and to see 'Duel of the Fates' played on loop for the final battle didn't sit well with him. I'll have to find it.

    I apologize if I seem argumentative, i don't intend to be. And I find that there is no match for a Williams score, by far. Williams on what I called "auto-pilot" was still twice the best Giachino score and 5 times the best modern Horner score.
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