AOTC/ROTS Complete Scores **Official Thread**

This argument always cracks me up.

I, for one, agree wholeheartedly with Vaderbait. Music without the accompanying film is pointless. It doesn't matter what JW wrote.. what ends up in the film is what matters. Because it's a SOUNDTRACK, not an album. Music not used in the film is just notes on paper, and has no meaning, no purpose. I've heard many unused and so-called "intended" tracks before, and frankly, I've never cared for them. For the simple reason that the music doesn't MEAN anything to me. It has nothing to go alongside it, it doesn't bring up any images or feelings, because it simply doesn't have them, and it never will.

As for the "written and intended" crowd, ya'll need to learn a bit more about the production process... you see, while there is such a thing as "written", there's no such thing as "intended". "Intended" is what ends up in the film, period. The film belongs to the director. The music belongs to the director, NOT the composer. Scores are not written for us, they're written for the film. What ends up in the film is all there is to the score/soundtrack. There's no such thing as "intended" music. It's just music. Like a deleted scene.. might be cool, but it ended up worthless, so out it goes. Get over it.

 

I think the real issue here, is why JW spends so much time assembling a concert version of each track for a soundtrack, instead of just writing the music to go along with what's on film and picking the best tracks. It's what he did with the OT, and what other composers do.

I konw Lucas edits it to hell and gone, but at least the soundtrack shouldn't have 3 different parts of a movie in the same track.

 

Ouch... you're just dead set against concert tracks, aren't you?

Unfortunately, you don't know what you're talking about. Williams wrote many more concert tracks for the OT than for the PT. Let's take a look.

Star Wars
- Leia's Theme
- Extended Throne Room and Different Credits Finale (both were re-recorded for the Revenge of the Sith credits)
- (possibly) a concert version of "TIE Fighter Attack"

The Empire Strikes Back
- The Imperial March
- Yoda's Theme
- Han Solo and the Princess (not recorded for the soundtrack)

Return of the Jedi
- Parade of the Ewoks
- Luke and Leia
- Jabba the Hutt (recording 50% unavailable)

Now for the PT:

The Phantom Menace
- Anakin's Theme
- Duel of the Fates
- The Flag Parade
(all three were used in the film, two for the credits)

Attack of the Clones
- Across the Stars

Revenge of the Sith
- Battle of the Heroes
- re-recordings of Leia's Theme and Throne Room (credits)

Now I may have made a few mistakes on that list - I'm not an expert on concert tracks, since they're sometimes not recorded - but obviously I've made my point. The OT had more concert tracks than the PT and it's a masterpiece. And guess what? John Williams had time to write them, because with the exception of the first, every Star Wars film has been scored practically wall-to-wall. Two plus hours of music. The only exception is the Battle of Geonosis in AotC, which has NOTHING to do with concert tracks.

By the way, it's time to clarify "concert tracks." You've been talking about the tracks as heard on the OST. Well, this is a problem. You see, the OST, remarkably, is almost as badly edited as the music in the film. It's really not a good example of the composer's "intention." If you want that, listen to the OT special editions. They contain the music in film order, except in cases where music was cut or tracked (e.g. Luke's dream scene at the beginning of Return of the Jedi). It represents Williams' intentions and the film (as closely as possible). Now, this is the kind of release we should have had for TPM. And don't worry! You may think Williams' intentions for the film were completely different than what ended up in it, but they weren't! An extended track here or there, a switched track, maybe a cut here. The only thing that's significantly different is the Battle of Naboo, and the original recording (and "intention") is simply LONGER and BETTER! For example, there's "The Hangar Battle." It's like on the UE (tracks 16 and 17), except without rearrangement of music (to poor effect), and an extra thirty seconds or so not heard in the film! There's a lot of other Battle of Naboo music that wasn't used (replaced by "Duel of the Fates" mostly) and is quite thrilling to listen to. It wasn't cut because it was substandard, because it didn't work in the film. It was MOSTLY because of bad sound editing! You have to stop being so trusting in Lucas and his editors. Sometimes they screw up.

A concert track is a (typically) three-to-five minute piece showcasing a theme. It is intended for the end credits or for future performance, not the film. That is what I listed above. So, the OST tracks are not "concert tracks," they are badly edited medleys of music written for the film, and they were NOT recorded that way.

As to your philosophy regarding this...

I'm sure you listen to other music besides soundtracks. But why? The music doesn't accompany anything. It's just music. Apparently, there's no point to it! Because you said the Star Wars music is nothing without the film... well, many people would beg to differ. By all objective standards, it's incredible music, for the most part. So if the Star Wars music doesn't matter on its own, NO music does. Unless you truly don't like the music, and listen only because of the on-screen events; WHEREAS you do like non-soundtrack music. But that's probably not the case, eh?

How about paintings? The art department for the Star Wars films has bee

 

Cerrabore posted on 4/28/05 6:41pm

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What would you rather have, Duel of the Fates (which you have heard MANY times before), or the music that was actually composed for the sequences, and would have worked quite well in them were it not for Mr. Lucas's psychotic "Fates" urges?
[hr][/blockquote]

I'd rather have what's in the movie. Your comparison to other forms of music is irrelevant. Other types of music aren't written to exactly coincide with certain events on-screen.. they're not meant to actually GO with anything. A motion picture score, on the other hand.. is written for a very specific purpose. To be seen WITH THE FILM. It's meant to be a part of something greater, it's never meant to stand on it's own, with the exception of the occasional concert suite, but then again, these are rarely used in the films themselves.

My point in posting here is not necessarily to argue.. I'm simply presenting another point of view, and trying to get you to realize that your way is [i]not[/i] the only way. And no matter what sort of stuff you babble at me, it's not going to change the mindset that's been in my head for the last twenty years when it comes to film music.

I'm not here to change your mind, but I would like for you to [i]stop trying to change mine[/i]. I post an opinion, and you basically tell me that my opinion is wrong. Well.. [i]that's[/i] wrong.

 

It's just music. Like a deleted scene.. might be cool, but it ended up worthless, so out it goes. Get over it.

Interesting how you do exactly what you accuse Cerrabore of doing in regard to other's opinions.

When I buy a CD of soundtrack music, I buy it because it worked in the film, but also because it stands well on its own as pure MUSIC. John Williams is one of the best at writing scores that fulfill both of these aspects. So, when I hear his music apart from the images (which, by the way, is perfectly capable of evoking emotion from me when separated from the images, whether it corresponds or not), I want to hear it the way he recorded it because it will undoubtedly sound better than what a music editor did to it in post.

Well-written music is the issue here for me, and personally, I'd like to hear it over another UE.

 

Unfortunately, you don't know what you're talking about. Williams wrote many more concert tracks for the OT than for the PT. Let's take a look.


THat was kind of my point, though. The stuff he wrote for the OT generally appeared that way in the movies. I have no problem with there being concert tracks, but I find it ridiculous that he has to have EVERY track be a concert track. I kind of like how he's got one or two concert pieces going in every soundtrack, but it just confuses me as to why he could score music that actually applies to a single part of a movie in the OT, and have it play out good, but for the PT, he has to jumble three parts from random parts of the movie into one track.

Am I making any sense? Look at Attack of the Clones. You have the Main Titles, then it segues into the Kamino theme from halfway through the movie. How is this any more powerful or better sounding than what actually comes after the Main TItles? Do you get what I'm saying here, I'm not sure if I'm saying it right.


And I'm not dead set against concert soundtracks. I would love it if they'd release it like you guy shave been talking about, but I think the priority should go to the music as heard in the film.

 

I like complete scores because they ARE what goes with the film AND it is more music to add to the collection.

There's some great music from the films that I would love to hear on my car stereo or at home. I just want that music to be part of my personal collection.

 

THat was kind of my point, though. The stuff he wrote for the OT generally appeared that way in the movies. I have no problem with there being concert tracks, but I find it ridiculous that he has to have EVERY track be a concert track. I kind of like how he's got one or two concert pieces going in every soundtrack, but it just confuses me as to why he could score music that actually applies to a single part of a movie in the OT, and have it play out good, but for the PT, he has to jumble three parts from random parts of the movie into one track.

Sorry Vaderbait, you've still got your terms mixed up. I am not an advocate of the TPM OST, or any other one - OSTs are incomplete and jumbled. I like complete scores, as written. The OT SEs are perfect examples of these. Contrary to popular belief, they present the music as Williams wrote and recorded it, not as it ended up in the film. But the two things aren't very different, thanks to great editing (especially with Star Wars). All most of us want is the same type of release for the prequel trilogy.

Now, concert tracks are not the edited "arrangements" from the OSTs. They are simply credits/unused recordings of the main themes. Duel of the Fates, Anakin's Theme, and The Flag Parade are the concert tracks from TPM. The stuff on the album? Nobody likes that. By the way, Revenge of the Sith, which you love so much, is also an "album" release. For example, the opening track is a composite of at least four different cues, and it's unlikely that they were composed in that order - Williams or Ken Wannberg (his editor) rearranged them that way for the album. Same goes for the original OT soundtrack releases. RotJ's was particularly bad, containing only twenty minutes of score material (the rest was concert tracks). It wasn't until 15-20 years later that they received proper releases.

You don't have to go from the rearranged OST to the badly edited film version. There's an inbetween: the music as originally written and recorded! That's what the OT SEs are. I think you're afraid of a TPM complete score being edited and rearranged by Williams into "concert" pieces. Not so! It would be like the OT SEs. Really, with the exception of the Battle of Naboo, there are few musical deviations from the film version. It's just the little things that bring down most of the UE... a nice flourish cut here, a bit of music tracked in there, a looped note here... a complete score would just be a smoother and more satisfying listen, remaining true to the film, while not losing its musical quality. As to the Battle of Naboo, that's a big mess. John Williams' music doesn't follow it too closely (not that we can blame him - the music was recorded in February, and Lucas continued to edit after that). So if you listen to the originally recorded Battle of Naboo, you'll have to use a bit of imagination! But the actual music is much better, even though it doesn't necessarily match events in the film.

My point in posting here is not necessarily to argue.. I'm simply presenting another point of view, and trying to get you to realize that your way is not the only way. And no matter what sort of stuff you babble at me, it's not going to change the mindset that's been in my head for the last twenty years when it comes to film music.

I'm simply saying that the film version of a soundtrack is not necessarily the best. Why? It's pretty simple... movies aren't perfect! Just because George Lucas thinks Duel of the Fates will work well in this scene (when John Williams didn't score it that way) doesn't mean it DOES! You can stand up and say, no, that was a bad editing decision - I prefer the original music. You don't have to be so trusting. Now, the thing is, maybe you DO agree with his editing decision. But my posts earlier have explained the irrationality of that. The edits damage the music. Do you honestly think Duel of the Fates tracked all over the Battle of Naboo SOUNDS BETTER - as music - than what John Williams wrote (I have linked to that a co

 

I like complete scores, as written. The OT SEs are perfect examples of these. Contrary to popular belief, they present the music as Williams wrote and recorded it, not as it ended up in the film.

Well, I agree with you there. That was what my last post was about. I was wondering why they couldn't have just scored the PT to run like those to begin with, instead of combining them all into random tracks.

 

To the person who posted the link to the official Battle of Naboo tracks, is there any possibility of getting more stuff like that posted? Tracks as originally laid out?

 

Well, I agree with you there. That was what my last post was about. I was wondering why they couldn't have just scored the PT to run like those to begin with, instead of combining them all into random tracks.

Well... the scoring process for the PT was pretty much the same as for the OT. Scoring means writing the music. The album - I can't stress this enough - is not what John Williams wrote for the movie. It's a crappy rearrangement. The OT had the same type of album releases, it wasn't until later that they were fully released. Now, I'm just curious why you like the TPM UE. It doesn't present the music as Williams wrote, it presents the music as it was poorly edited for the film. It's NOT the same as the OT SEs in terms of musical presentation.

To the person who posted the link to the official Battle of Naboo tracks, is there any possibility of getting more stuff like that posted? Tracks as originally laid out?

Yeah... you'll have to do some work, though. The rest of that site describes how to make a complete TPM set. Set aside $50 or so for buying videogames.

 

We need the complete scores of II and III badly. I want to hear the drums after the opening of EP III!

 

Now, I'm just curious why you like the TPM UE. It doesn't present the music as Williams wrote, it presents the music as it was poorly edited for the film.

Because the music in the film was powerful. I don't think it was "poorly edited", I think it gives the music a sense of urgency.

I'd be all for hearing what William's originally scored, but since that's never going to happen, I'd be more than happy to hear it as it appears in the film, so I have images to put with the music.

And as for the complete editions, sadly, I don't think we'll ever get them. Sony just doesn't care. They're a business, and they just spent a lot of money re-releasing the OT OST's with new covers. They didn't bother to fix the sound with ROTJ's soudntrack, so I highly doubt they're ever going to put any more effort into the series.

 

Though I don't really care for TPM UE, I think I would rather have UE than SE of the soundtracks for AotC and RotS. I think in TPM, there was horrible editing (especially of Duel of the Fates near the end), but the music editing was much better in the other two. I would really like to hear the music as it appeared in the other two movies. Although I would rather have whole tracks rather than several tracks grouped together. I hate having one continuous piece broken up over several tracks in anything. Makes it harder to put it on a CD.

 

I like the TPM UE because i can go through and picture everything as it happens with the music.

 

I would like that music that plays during the Mace and Palpatine duel!

 

If we're renaming the thread, why not just call it the "Complete Prequel Scores" thread. Neither current release of TPM is "complete".

 

But there is a complete TPM out there. With the blue cover.

So we need only AOTC and ROTS.

 

How is the UE not complete? I think there's only a few seconds missing from it, just like the SE editions. There's really no difference in the amount of music.

I like the UE's small tracks, makes it much easier. I don't think the concert arrangements that included three different parts of the movie. It was good enough to play in the movie a certain way, so it should be that way on the soundtrack, too.

I'd love to get the Anakin vs. Dooku duel music and the Mace scene, as well as the complete ANakin vs. Obi-Wan.

 

Yes, there is a difference, besides the harsh edits (compare "Escape From Naboo" on the OST to the UE, the OST fades out, the UE is cut-off), there's the music that was replaced by portions of the Dotf concert piece, alternates, the FILM version of Augie...etc...TPM:UE is NOT complete...



ttbk

 

Slightly more on-topic, I thought I had posted this here, but maybe that was a different thread:

Link
"- There was a question asked to the possiblity of the boxed set prequel scores: and Rick (McCallum) said that maybe in a year they would release them. He didn't specify to whether it would be complete scores or not but I would assume so."



ttbk

 

How is the UE not complete? I think there's only a few seconds missing from it, just like the SE editions. There's really no difference in the amount of music.

I'd like alternate cuts as well, before I could ever call an edition "complete." (But then, I'm another one who disliked the Ultimate edit. I want pauses between tracks, not a mere isolated score DVD track burnt to CD.)

 

I'd prefer the isolated score. Breaks would be nice, just for the sake of having shorter tracks, but I think the UE did it pretty good.

"- There was a question asked to the possiblity of the boxed set prequel scores: and Rick (McCallum) said that maybe in a year they would release them. He didn't specify to whether it would be complete scores or not but I would assume so."

I want to get excited for this, but I'm not letting myself. Virtually everything McCallum has ever told us has turned out wrong.

 

How is the UE not complete? I think there's only a few seconds missing from it, just like the SE editions. There's really no difference in the amount of music.

... Try 5+ minutes. Seriously. There is so much stuff missing from the UE. For example, compare CD 1 Track 11, "Darth Sidious," with its corresponding track on the OST (Track 14, starting at 3:45). Now don't tell me about this being a "concert track" (it's not) and about how music from different parts of the film is edited together. That's not the *point*. The point is, the OST - which, in this specific case, presents "Darth Sidious" as originally recorded. Listen from 4:30 onward. Now compare that to the UE. Notice 10-20 seconds of music cut from the UE? Yep. Now, unless you have that scene completely MEMORIZED, and only listen to the soundtracks to recall the film, think about it. Do you like missing out on 20 seconds of music there because the special effects department decided to cut a shot?

There's stuff like this all over the score. Listen to OST Track 14, 1:44. Huh, what the hell is that? That's right, you're hearing a piece that was completely cut from the film version. It would have underscored a scene where Obi-Wan fended off battle droids in the swamps of Naboo. Pretty cool music, isn't it? EVEN THOUGH it was cut from the film! But don't you still want to have it on the soundtrack?

Track 10, 0:00-0:14. Cut from the score. Track 9, 1:54-2:26, replaced with "Escape from Naboo," which is already heard earlier in the score. Track 4, 0:00-1:08, cut. Why would you want to miss out on this music because it was cut from the FILM?

This only cracks the surface. There is SO MUCH music that was recorded for the Battle of Naboo but not used. Like the Imperial March? There's an action cue that utilizes it in a very interesting way. Duel of the Fates? It's still there, but in a piece recorded for the film - not the CONCERT piece which is used in the film.

I've brought this up several times before, but I think you keep missing the part where I say there's a lot of music cut from the film. And you just have nothing to compare the UE editing to. Again, and I suppose by now you're passing over my message while happily listening to "The Republic Pilots Take Off into Space," try this web site:

http://www.geocities.com/elvisjones2000/interesting.html

Click on the link to the "best guess" at the BATTLE OF NABOO to hear five minutes of completely new (to you) music. There's a strong march for the Gungans, an added segment to the Hangar Battle, a longer version of The Space Battle, the Imperial March thing... why would you want to miss out on all this and listen to Duel of the Fates looped endlessly?

In the past you've argued that the UE is better than the OST, at least. Indeed it is. But regular people now have accessed to advanced editing equipment, and it's not hard to put together a complete score using the best of both, as well as other sources, such as video games. Read the "elvisjones" site for more information on that.

 

EVEN THOUGH it was cut from the film! But don't you still want to have it on the soundtrack?

Man, are you even reading our posts? I don't think anyone's said we don't want any extra music. I'll take all the music I can get. All I've been saying is I want to hear it as it is in the film. Throw in all the extra music you want, and I"ll love every second, but I think priority has to go to the music as heard in the film.

I never said I didn't like concert tracks or alternate or cut cues, just that I wanted more than just that.