AOTC would be a lot more powerful if...

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by angelak, Apr 6, 2005.

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  1. angelak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    For all those who complain that Natalie Portman did a poor job playing Padme in this film or that Hayden Christian is the worst person to play anakin...all and all because the two have no chemestry I offer them the following. The chemestry has absolutely NOTHING to do with the the ackwardness of their love story. Its called bad editing!

    I'll go over the scenes and explain why I think a move will work, but also explain what I feel is going on with Padme in each scene. See, the problem is I'm totally convinced Anakin is "intoxicated" by Padme. That's established in the elevator shot in more than just words. He acts like a young guy with a huge infatuation, but as is, he seems like a stalker who can't take a hint that she's not interested, yet she ends up falling for her stalker anyway. One of the main problems is that the kiss happens too soon.

    I'll referr to things by chapter numbers.

    5: Old friends. You can totally tell Anakin is obsessed with her. Padme is disinterested. I think she has a warm very close platonic feelings for him, almost maternal. She took care of him in a motherly sort of way when he was 10, and I think she thought the innocense of the ten year old's remark of "Are you an angel?" I mean yea it sounds corny, but ten year olds can actually be sincere with a question like that. He really wanted to know why she was so beautiful and striking to him.

    The reaction to his new remark is out of place for the situation they're in. To me her reaction seems to be not knowing how to respond, but fondly remembering his sweetness as a child. It does instill in her mind that there is an age gap. So she's rejecting him. Then he acts like an immature stubbern teenager in front of her with Obi-Wan.

    She knows he likes her, but she doesn't have the heart to discuss it with him, and she cares about his feelings, so she tries to subtly turn him down.

    So as of yet, the story is of a poor boy crushing on a girl who thinks of him as a child and isn't interested.

    7 (I'm not skipping chapter 8, but it doesn't relate to what I'm saying) He prooves himself somewhat to her by saving her life. He definetly takes authority when called to action and isn't acting much like a child with hormones anymore.

    9: New assignments - in packing in the apartment, I do think Padme does see more of his adult side to him, but she's still really put off by him and doesn't know how to react. She also know that even though he's flirting with her, he can't love anyone, so there has to be something wrong with him....immaturity probably or something that is causing him to react this way to her. And she tries harder to reject him, but doesn't quite have the heart. The tone of her voice suggest that she has a bond with him that she's had since they were young, but he's bringing hormones and adulthood into it. So the more he shows that he's not a child and not so immature (in fact, showing her that she needs to losen up a bit, which according to Lucas is one of the top reasons she falls for him.) She also gives him the advice not to grow up so quickly because she had to grow up too fast and regrets the loss of her childhood.

    10: Traveling Incognito Well the fact that she can joke with him shows she's losing up a little to him and is less uncomfortable, but the scene doesn't serve for too much. I totally think that Captain Typho's comment comes across as odd. I might cut that

    So then we have 11: Dex's Diner I'm going to move chapter 12. The interesting thing about this move is that you now have Obi-Wan in a place you eat and in the next scene you have Anakin and Padme eating.

    13: Encouraged to love - she gets to talk more heart to heart with him. I will say there is something about a guy being enamored with you. If you don't think there's something seriously wrong and scarry about them, you can't help but to think of them romantically. Its like liking to be liked. The type of questions she asks him about love and what not really shows kind of a reluctance to allow herself to have feelings devel
  2. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    ATOC is fine. There needs to be a place for basher threads other than here. I don't want to talk about the author rather than the topic, but if the topic is nothing but BS designed to raise the ire of people who like the PT, then I can't help it. I hope this thread gets locked soon. There will be no discussion here.

    Come on! Your comments are completely unwarrented. It is obvious that the author put a lot of thought into this topic. Let it play out and lets see what happens.
  3. angelak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    I apoligise for the double post, but I am not here to bash the PT nor Lucas. I simply feel that AOTC has the potential of being better than it is.

    Lucas has his talents. What he knows about the effects music has on people, how he challenges people, how he's created this story.

    But revising your own work makes you blind. I'm not a movie editor, but I have a lot of experience with editing stories. When its your own work, you get so in the habit of reading, on in this case, watching the same thing over and over, you become blind to seeing what things are neccessary sometimes. When you know the story by heart and know exactly what the characters are going through, you forget that it all that's in your head may not be conveyed.

    Now, most of the opinions I see on websites show people liking AOTC better than TPM. Where I'm from, people like TPM better because AOTC has developed the love story so poorly. I think its just the stuff on Naboo. Once Anakin has his nightmare, Padme's feelings are not questionable. Its the whole story of how they developed which was poorly ordered.

    I enjoyed AOTC more the first time I saw it than TPM the first time I saw that, but TPM has held up to be watchable more than AOTC has. Granted, there is something about TPM. I can put that movie in any language, and it has the same effect on me each time. Sometimes I just change the language setting to make it more interesting. haha.

    By the way, why is it ok to criticize the dialogue and the acting but not ok to criticize the editing? Lucus had a good script (with ackward dialogue, no doubt, but SW dialogue), and decent acting that matches the rest of the series. I mean how is Padme supposed to act? She's a woman who grew up too fast, politics before she hit puberty, was a queen when she was 14 and has the center of her life being around politics. Her comfort zone is going to be formal, head-strong with perfect posture. She lives out ediquette. It is totally appropriate that she acts uncomfortable and struggles to continue to stay in a more professional mode.
  4. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    Anyone who has taken creative writing in college has experience editing stories. Editing a movie is totally different. Why not title the thread "ATOC would be better if I made it." There is no room for thought provoking discussion in this thread.

    I disagree. You are overreacting and are being rude.
  5. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    I can't say I'm a big fan of Ben Burtt's editing of the movie...and as someone who edits professionally I can say that it IS likely that perhaps some of the actors' better takes were left on the recycle bin whilst the worse acting takes were used in the film?

    Everyone has different ideas of what consititutes good and bad acting.

    What i do NOT abide though is the cutting of Padme's family - they were not only incredibly important for her character development as well as Anakin's but a much-needed rest-point at the beginning of the 2nd Act.

    Yeah...actually now that I think about it I'm not a fan of Ben Burtt and George Lucas's editing decisions.

    But that's just my conjecture. AOTC is probably the poorest edited and poorly paced Star Wars film, beating ROTJ by a long-shot.

    Best editing? ANH or ESB.
  6. angelak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    ANH does have good editing.
    I may not edit films, as I said again, but I have worked with video editing software. I'm not expert, but the process of character development doesn't change whether you're writing a play, a screenplay, a short story or a novel. To simply claim that "well Lucas is the expert and you're not" is ridiculas. How can you say something works when the majority of the audience disagrees. Now this is my opinion on WHY it doesn't work. Other people think its the acting or dialogue, but overall most people know that the romance between Anakin and Padme doesn't work.

    There is nothing wrong with criticism. Heck, Shakespeare's work is criticized. Where ever there is art, there is always a critical analyzer.

    Reorganizing the scenes would help the movie to play better. I've even shown people it this way, and even with the time barriers of switching DVD's and going through menus, everyone I've shown it to as a suggestion like it better, even those who did not like the movie.

    Therefore, I challenge you to attempt to watch the film with suggested organization. And this is open to dialogue. You can very well disagree with me over what Padme is thinking at certain scenes, what's being expressed etc, etc. I'm a person who typically debates on boards where questions are not the starts of posts. For the most part its statements which we actually discuss. We don't just answer questions, we take input from other's and let our opinions evolve. What's the point of just answering a question?
  7. angelak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2005
    I just thought of something simpler that won't add to the length of the film. Replace the scene of their first arrival on naboo with meeting the parents. There is a sequence of the ship landing in an area that looks more like the region the parents live in anyway. Just cut short...don't show the transport going to the capital.

    Then switch around the pinic and the arrival at the retreat place.
  8. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    NZPoe:
    Assuming GL was never going to go for a movie longer than ATOC was, what would you have cut to fit in the scenes with Padme's family? I too think these are good scenes and should have been in the movie, but at the expense of what?
  9. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    "Anyone who has taken creative writing in college has experience editing stories. Editing a movie is totally different. Why not title the thread "ATOC would be better if I made it." There is no room for thought provoking discussion in this thread."


    I heartily agree.
  10. Amon_Amarth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2005
    star 6
    I do not think AOTC should be changed. 'Great god' George Lucas made Star Wars, this is all his brilliant idea. If weren't for him, all of us wouldn't be posting here right now. If this is how he imagined Episode II, so be it.

    EDIT: spelling
  11. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    NZPoe:
    Assuming GL was never going to go for a movie longer than ATOC was, what would you have cut to fit in the scenes with Padme's family? I too think these are good scenes and should have been in the movie, but at the expense of what?


    Much thought to be given in your question there is.

    Hmmmmm.....

    Possibily the Factory Assembly Line action sequence on Geonosis. Or possibly even recutting and refilming the Arena scene and having the Republic arrive and saving our heroes from the monsters rather than have them defeat the monsters themselves.

    Yeah possibly one of those - they're great action sequences but superflous to the story when compared with what takes place at Padme's home. In my opinion :)
  12. Virgilius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2004
    star 2
    Listen, I think I should clarify something. If you all don't like the acting style, it's probably because Lucas based it on that from 1940s. I like it just fine. Besides, the movies are meant to be like silent films. The dialogue is meant to be like music that helps tell the story. Lucas is a visual director, not a literary one.

    Also, I think Hayden really showed humanness, obsession, vulnerability, and agression in Anakin. Natalie showed virtue, seriousness, and devotion as Padme. They may not have a typical romance, but that's the point of it. It's an awkward, unusual thing for a Jedi and a politican to fall in love. She's in denial, he's infatuated. They're very attractive. They have strong mental, emotional, soulfull attractions for each other.

    I don't have a problem with any of this, but I've gotten used to people disliking the prequels over the years. "A lot of people dislike the prequels," I told a teacher. That was an understatement. Oh, well. Everyone is free to have their own opinions.
  13. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    NZpoe:
    I would definately trade the droid factory for more Padme backstory, but not the arena battle. The droid factory is the one questionable sequence in the movie considering GL never concieved it as part of the original script.
  14. Ko-jah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 1
    well i am currently writing a novel series that i hope to get published and i ran into the dilemma of how long it should be, but as it turned out the solution was simple - as long as it takes to tell the story.
    so really strict adhering a time frame is a BS excuse.

    in reference to the question directed at NZpoe re: cutting scenes to make way for the family scenes. i would leave the droid factory stuff in as this is a long scene and padme's family (excluding bedroom) is not that long.

    i would cut the arrival on naboo - it is a scene only about discussing why she is no longer queen, but we already know she is no longer the queen so the clarification isnt that necessary. besides, the horrible edit in the middle which marries two of padme's conversations together makes this whole scene unprofessional.
    if need be a sentence or two whilst they meet with the new queen can suffice all that was said in the "arrival on naboo scenes".

    this way you have padme curious about anakin's "allowed to love" as a jedi (from the spaceship) which is a step towards building a bond, which would be followed up by anakin's "excuse me" outburst at the palace for tension between the two.

    as it stands it is build up - idle chit chat - tension - then anakin gets her by herself again in the picnic scene
    speaking of which this picnic scene would probably be better if the conversation was altered and on the boat on the lake to allow a good lead up to the kiss - which would probably agree with the original poster's idea.
  15. NZPoe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2001
    star 4
    i would leave the droid factory stuff in as this is a long scene and padme's family (excluding bedroom)

    I want the family scenes restored so you can JUSTIFY having the bedroom scene - which for me is very important.

    In fact I wouldn't mind not having the family scenes at all if I could JUST have the bedroom sequence.

  16. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I wonder how you could have the family scenes when Padme was to be taken to an isolated area?
  17. Emperor's Prize Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 1999
    star 4
    I wonder how you could have the family scenes when Padme was to be taken to an isolated area?


    Visiting Padme's family is at least as safe as walking through the capital in broad daylight and having an audience with the queen. ;)

    I've watched AOTC in the order suggested above and, I must say, it does add to the movie. For me, the sequence of events unfolds more logically.

    And if any scene was redundant it was the one where Anakin has his nightmare on Naboo. The fact that Anakin and Padme discuss it the very next scene makes the one where he's in bed entirely unnecessary.
  18. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    <<<<<The scene ends with Anakin on top of Padme>>>>>

    Actually, Padme's on top of Anakin.
  19. aPPmaSTer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 3
    Well since everyone is talking about the love story, try this. Here's my post from another thread. Be mindful, it's not finished yet:

    "Honestly, I'm more disappointed with their first kiss. You don't go from cold to kissing."

    What I would've liked to see in this scene, which I think wouldn've improved it tremendously is something like this:

    Instead of the talk about how Anakin hates sand and how it gets everywhere, I would use the dialogue from the original script, with a few minor modifications:

    After the talk about the school retreat...

    PADME: There was a very old man who lived on the island. He used to make glass out of sand - and vases and necklaces out of the glass. They were magical.

    ANAKIN: (looks at her, then out onto the water, sees reflection of sun on the water) Everything here is magical.

    PADME: You could look into the glass and see the water. The way it ripples and moves. It looked so real (smiling)... but it wasn't.

    ANAKIN: Sometimes, when you believe something to be real, it becomes real.

    Their eyes meet.

    PADME: I used to think if you looked too deeply, you'd forget where you are and lose yourself.

    ANAKIN: I think it's true...

    (Across the Stars music starts playing, while Anakin and Padme are looking deeply at each other)

    Few seconds pass.

    PADME: (looks away) You're looking at me again.

    ANAKIN: (whispering) I think you're magical...

    PADME: (looks back at him, smiles very slightly, and a tear forms in her eye, looks away) Please...please don't talk like that.

    ANAKIN: (realising what he'd just said) I'm sorry.

    PADME: (knowing that it's partly her fault) I am too.
    //cut to Kamino

    "People wouldn't think that the outdoor picnic is pointless if it had occured before they kissed."

    My thoughts exactly...and what a perfect place for a first kiss. Here's my idea for this one.

    The dialogue could use some work like:

    ANAKIN: They only work on the weak-minded. You are anything but weak-minded.

    But the main work should be done after the talk:

    PADME and ANAKIN walk through the field side by side with the same background music as when PADME is running by herself, when a SHAAK pops up and scares PADME. She gets startled and falls to the ground (on a hill) taking ANAKIN with her and they roll around. Laughing. Anakin gets up and pulls her up, both laughing - starting to lose themselves - and Anakin moves towards the SHAAK.

    NOTE: I personally would change the way the SHAAK looks into something more suited for carrying 2 passengers, like a horse.

    PADME: Don't get too close.

    ANAKIN, smiling mischievously, grabs her hand and uses the other to mind control the SHAAK, who comes running to them instantly (making an interesting contrast between the playful SHAAK and the deadly REEK that ANAKIN tries to mind control in the arena). Both get on top of it and it starts running.

    The SHAAK takes them to visually stunning places, forests, flowered pastures, rivers. The two are smiling the whole time - obviously enjoying their time with each other immensly, totally forgetting everything in the world - when all of a sudden, the SHAAK sits down from exhaustion, making the two fall down and start laughing, followed by a deep look into each others eyes, followed by their first kiss.
    //cut to Kamino

    The next part where we see Anakin and Padme together is when they're eating, and they're both very happy, which would make total sense after sharing such a wonderful experience together.

    The fireplace scene in this case would need a drastic overhaul, which I didn't think about yet. All I know is that Padme has to be a lot more softer on Anakin, making him understand that they can't be together gently, not forcefully. If I have some spare time I'll think about it, but in the meantime I'd like to hear any comments you guys might have for the 2 scenes
  20. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Visiting Padme's family is at least as safe as walking through the capital in broad daylight and having an audience with the queen.

    Let's see, they were disguised but spent only a minute outside, then met the Queen (who is heavily guarded), then taken to an isolated place. The family scene is a longer one. So much for spending time on protection.
  21. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    Dude..I'm totally going to try watching clones like that..

    I never thought the love story was bad..but I honestly felt uncomfortable watching it with others while the snickered..

    I agree it could be better..I think maybe they rushed clones..maybe they should have pushed back the release date..

    who knows..maybe it will be re-edited for the uber PT delux edition...

    Anyway..good thoughts
  22. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    What Lucas attempted to do was combine a Courtly Love* story with an action movie.

    Now the way Lucas edited together was for two reasons... One to keep the pace going (after all it was Star Wars.. it really coudnlt settle down) Two to show people that there was some advancedment in the movie.

    The reason the first kiss happened so "soon" was that he had to show that there was a definite physical attaraction... While she did put a stop to it, that it was there.

    The fact they went on a picnic afterwards show that there was something devoloping between them...and the nice dinner.

    Now the ubrupt edit was a masterstroke. It accuratly reflected how Anakins emotional outpour upseted what was a nice day... Once Padme closed the door, Anakin's mind turned to his mother...

    And the fact that she WILLINGLY followed him to Tatoonie speaks vollumes...

    Lucas had a envious task, attempting to bring this type of story in WHILE doing a star wars film. Unlike ESB, where Han and Liea was chased by the empire, Lucas forego any immediate physical danger and let the romance speak for itself.







    (That is when a younger knight falls in love with an older royalty..see-sawing emotions, denying, chasing until the woman realizes its real. It of course, and in Tragedy)
  23. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Now the ubrupt edit was a masterstroke. It accuratly reflected how Anakins emotional outpour upseted what was a nice day... Once Padme closed the door, Anakin's mind turned to his mother...

    ...


    You bet! I felt the abrupt edit, showed that it was now a serious moment between the two main lovers. Anakin was going to spill his heart out and he does! It tells the audience that (IMO anyway) that we are getting into the nitty gritty, in particular exactly what has been boiling inside Anakin. He had to let it out.

    And the fact that she WILLINGLY followed him to Tatoonie speaks volumes

    Yep. I felt and Im willing to bet (using Pay Pal ;)), that it shows that Padme despite what she has been trying to deny, is actually trying to be THE woman in his life. Mother maybe in pain, suffering, etc but she wants to be WITH HIM even if he?s decided to go to his mother..

    Look at the proceedings after the death of his Mother. Padme hears Anakin confess to what happened out there, but is there FOR HIM, despite the atrocity. Mother is dead, but Padme IS THERE. She comforts him, to be show that she is there for him.

    Finally, note that his Mother even in dying moment tries struggles (for obvious reasons) but FAILS to say that she loved him at the death. But Padme who has been bottling everything inside, tells that she loves him, without any real struggle at all at the coming death or so it seemed. And she was determined to tell him, that her love is TRUE and DEEP. No wonder Luke when he finds out about his father, is determined to turn Vader back to his TRUE self;the love he has for his father.

    One could say, Luke?s mother?s affection for Anakin despite the atrocity, has passed on to Luke. But in a tragedy, I think we?ll see Padme?s insistence to look past Anakin?s actions (in AOTC), eventually is part of the reason, that destroys the man Anakin was, turns him into DV (in ROTS).

    Anakin knows that Padme has been there for him in some difficult times and something about Padme ( I believe) will be part and parcel of his undoing.

    Whereas its Luke insistence to look past Vader to encourage the man inside, destroys Vader and turns him back.


  24. Skywalk272 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2000
    star 4
    I haven't tried to watch it the way that was suggested yet..haven't had time

    I do agree with the two post that were FOR the way the movie was edited. This romance is supposed to have a shakespearian tragic feel to it..

    It falls short somehow, but mostly I think its because so much politics had to be told in EPII as well..

    the reall tradgey is coming..

    If I'm not mistaken, In Romeo and Juliet.. the couple go way further than just kissing after barely knowing each other..and Juliet doesn't even try and hide it!

    I think part of the problem is, in keeping with the pace of a movie..people forget how long space travel might take...You have to use your imagination that there probably was a ton more catching up than the one moment we got on the civilian liner.

    Anybody remember that picture of Anakin lying in a crumy cot on the same liner? Where was this seen?


  25. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    How can you say something works when the majority of the audience disagrees. Now this is my opinion on WHY it doesn't work. Other people think its the acting or dialogue, but overall most people know that the romance between Anakin and Padme doesn't work.

    I've got to admit, it's hard to beat these sentences for sheer arrogance. Did you individually question the millions of people who saw the film as to whether or not the romance worked? Did you do a survey door to door? No, you're just assuming the majority perceived it the way you do. Don't make flat, factual statements when in fact, you're just guessing everyone agrees with YOU.

    Let's not express opinion as fact.
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