Are Clone Troopers Storm Troopers?

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You must not have read carefully. He said they are still clones, just from different sources. "My cousin wants in, but he doesn't want to fight, can you clone him?" Recruitment is never mentioned.[/b][hr][/blockquote]It's heavily implied though, in that set diary...and we all know that Lucas suffers from an immense case of Tongue-In-Cheek Disease ninety-five per cent of the time, anyways.

[b][blockquote][hr]Lucas doesn't consult the EU when writing the films, he isn't trying to keep things continuous. It's the EU that is constantly scrambling to keep up with what he writes in subsequent films.[/b][hr][/blockquote][i]Hunnawhuzzah...??[/i] [face_confused]

[i]<sigh>[/i]

Here we go [u]again[/u].

It's not like Lucas goes and spot-checks each and every single minute, tiny subtle little detail when writing the scripts, but he certainly [b][i]does[/i][/b] keep the bigger picture in mind, not to mention reading the comics and certain books when the fancy strikes him and when time permits.

You shouldn't go around spreading the illusion that the Expanded Universe is some collective pariah in his eyes, and that he disdains it hugely...he doesn't.

[b][blockquote][hr]That's why Jaster Mareel went from being Boba Fett's real name to the name of Jango's mentor. The original story wasn't consistent with AOTC.[/b][hr][/blockquote]You and everybody else in these benighted desmenses knows [u]full bluidie welle[/u] by now that that's not what happened at all. The Expanded Universe never even *touched* Boba Fett's childhood. "Jaster Mareel" was an alias that he took on when he was [b][i]older[/i][/b], and *already* a professional bounty hunter. The furthest back that the EU had even [b][i]lightly probed[/b][/i] prior to [i]Attack of the Clones[/i] was this era, when the Empire was already firmly established.

Nothing was ever contradicted.

[b][blockquote][hr]And intruding between films doesn't mean that EU stories alter the reality presented by the films. In the films, Lucas has presented Stormtroopers as clones.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Nope. He's only [i][b]alluded[/i][/b] to the possibility in one set diary. Which isn't part of the on-screen "narrative" at all.

And as far as most fans are concerned, if it ain't "narrative" -- up on screen or on the printed page -- it's only speculation. Even if you're the creator, if you don't put it up there, it don't count.

Now, if he DOES come out in [i]Episode III[/i] and have the characters state unequivocally that the Stormtroopers are nothing *but* clones, beginning middle and end, then maybe you'd have something. But until and unless that even [u]occurs[/u], everything that's come before is still perfectly legitimate and fair game for use.

[b][blockquote][hr]EU writers can make something up about moving to recuits, or mental instability, but that doesn't suddenly change things in the movies.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Rather, I think you mean: George Lucas hasn't yet changed his movies to contradict [i]the EU writers[/i].

[b][blockquote][hr]The films are a complete story, a complete continuity, comprehensible all by themselves. Not a companion piece to novels or comics.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Agree with you, re: "a complete story," and "comprehensible all by themselves." Undisputedly.

But they all fit together as one whole. And the non-filmic stories are certainly part and parcel of Lucas's greater vision for the saga -- as he's mentioned time and again, such as in the [i]Splinter of the Mind's Eye[/i] preface. And all of it has functioned together for decades now in relative harmony...including the perceived Stormtrooper "problem."

 

Actually I know full bloody well that until AOTC was released, Boba Fett's real name was believed to be Jaster Mareel. It didn't become an alias until EU writers had to patch things up to match with the films. Check the Character's Guide from before the release of AOTC: Jaster Mareel is unequivocally given as his real name, and Concord Dawn as his home planet.

Rather, I think you mean: George Lucas hasn't yet changed his movies to contradict the EU writers.

No, I mean what I said. What about Lucas's quote that the films are gospel, the rest is gossip? They are what if stories, the writing of which he approves, but the content of which is not part of the cinematic story. He trampled over the Jaster Mareel story and the stormtroopers as recruits stories. Lucas doesn't speculate about his universe, he makes definitive decisions. He didn't design the films to have books, comics and cartoons read between episodes to explain what the films don't. The films are self-explanatory.

 

Actually I know full bloody well that until AOTC was released, Boba Fett's real name was believed to be Jaster Mareel.

Many people in the Star Wars galaxy thought it was his name too.

It didn't become an alias until EU writers had to patch things up to match with the films.

It wasn't a patch, it was expanding on the story.

Check the Character's Guide from before the release of AOTC: Jaster Mareel is unequivocally given as his real name, and Concord Dawn as his home planet.

So? That's what Boba told people too, when under that alias. Maybe he told the EGTC that too.

No, I mean what I said. What about Lucas's quote that the films are gospel, the rest is gossip?

Must have missed that one...

They are what if stories, the writing of which he approves, but the content of which is not part of the cinematic story.

Coruscant, Aayla, etc. Most of it isn't part of the cinematic story. But all of it is part of the literary story, films included.

He trampled over the Jaster Mareel story and the stormtroopers as recruits stories.

Nope.

Lucas doesn't speculate about his universe, he makes definitive decisions. He didn't design the films to have books, comics and cartoons read between episodes to explain what the films don't. The films are self-explanatory.

Which is why things are implied. And then people can read about them if they want.

 

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No, I mean what I said. What about Lucas's quote that the films are gospel, the rest is gossip? They are what if stories, the writing of which he approves, but the content of which is not part of the cinematic story.

Lucas doesn't speculate about his universe, he makes definitive decisions. He didn't design the films to have books, comics and cartoons read between episodes to explain what the films don't. The films are self-explanatory.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Wow, how utterly [i]terrific[/i] for you it must be to not have to do any actual thinking for yourself, despite all the evidence and logic presented to the contrary, and to close your eyes and plug your ears and stamp your feet and hum real loud whenever something you don't like to consider is presented to you.

I mean, it's just peachy that you've all set yourselves up as the followers of the One True Religion And Prophet, and that the rest of us unenlightened, heretical fools are poor, deluded apostates who just refuse to see the light.

The George Lucas-worshippers only think otherwise through this illusion of him as somebody whom had a Great Master Plan in effect for the series since the day he was born -- when in fact, he pretty much changes it as he goes along (so much for "vision") -- and which allows them to imagine the films are more sophisticated than they truly are through the filter of ideology.

Perhaps it's because Expanded Universe fen aren't threatened by Lucas's road-turns; it's not an infidel heresy to the One True Faith, the way the EU is to the Lucas-cultist.

[b][blockquote][hr]He trampled over the Jaster Mareel story and the stormtroopers as recruits stories.[/b][hr][/blockquote][b][i]This[/i][/b] sure hasn't been refuted ten thousand times before now...

Re: what I said about closing one's eyes and plugging one's ears...??

[blockquote][image=http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Ferrous.jpg]

[color=purple][b]Ferrous Cranus[/b]

Ferrous Cranus is utterly impervious to reason, persuasion and new ideas, and when engaged in battle he will not yield an inch in his position regardless of its hopelessness. Though his thrusts are decisively repulsed, his arguments crushed in every detail and his defenses demolished beyond repair, he will remount the same attack again and again with only the slightest variation in tactics. Sometimes out of pure frustration, Philosopher will try to explain to him the failed logistics of his situation, or Therapist will attempt to penetrate the psychological origins of his obduracy, but, ever unfathomable, Ferrous Cranus cannot be moved.[/color][/blockquote]And...

[blockquote][color=purple][image=http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/Stone%20Deaf.jpg]

[b]Stone Deaf[/b]

Stone Deaf is one of the few truly invincible Warriors because nothing can shatter his impenetrable armor of non-recognition. His primitive battle strategy is maddening effective; he simply refuses to acknowledge any arguments he doesn't like. Kung-Fu Master can hammer away with devastating blows, Cyber Sisters can screech in full throat and Profundus Maximus can expound until he drops, but Stone Deaf remains utterly oblivious as he advances his dogged and often repetitious attacks. In the early stages of battle, a wide array of Warriors will fling themselves at Stone Deaf, but inevitably they fall back exhausted or lose interest when they see that their best weapons have no effect. His only real enemy is Admin, who has the power to eject him from the discussion forum.[/blockquote][/color]

[b][blockquote][hr]Actually I know full bloody well that until AOTC was released, Boba Fett's real name was believed to be Jaster Mareel. It didn't become an alias until EU writers had to patch things up to match with the films. Check the Character's Guide from before the release of AOTC: Jaster Mareel is unequivocally given as his real name, and Concord Dawn as his home planet.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Wrong-o. It's what the citizens of the galaxy BELIEVED his "real" name to be...and it was indeed presented as an *alia

 

Owen Lars is not Obi-wan's brother.



'nuff said.

 

That's because you read the new, post-AOTC story. Look for the original guide to characters and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

That's because you read the new, post-AOTC story. Look for the original guide to characters and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Do you really think Boba would go around telling where he came from? Of course not so he made up stories like this one.

 

Don't you think if Stormies were clones, Han and Luke would've noticed something when they stole the stormtroopers' armor in ANH?

 

Don't you think if Stormies were clones, Han and Luke would've noticed something when they stole the stormtroopers' armor in ANH?

what's to notice? the clone wars are common knowedge to everyone in the GFFA. knowing this, han and luke would expect to find clones under the armor of a stormtrooper. why would they be suprised by common knowledge?

 

I seem to remember Han being quite surprised to find clones on the Katana fleet (is that correct? Haven't read the Thrawn trilogy in a while), so apparently it's not such a common thing.

Yes, the Clone Wars are common knowledge, but they had been over for a while after ANH. By then, Imperial academies were being used to train new recruits, meaning that clones were probably not being used.

Don't you think if the Empire had the ability to clone, they'd overwhelm the Rebellion with troops?

Clones cannot really think for themselves. Rather, they follow orders and procedures. In my opinion, the Empire realized this and decided to get troops that could think for themselves when in danger.

 

In ANH they talk about the Academy were recruits are trained. So I think that that shows that there are Recruits.

 

You fought in "The Clone Wars?"
Luke's question always seemed to me that the idea of cloning was a "lost?" process...that after the Clone Wars, the technology was abandoned/outlawed.

That being the case, Palpatine keeping a cloning facility for himself would make the secrecy of Wayland understandable...it was the AREA 51 of the Empire.

That would result in the general public unaware of the continued existance/use of cloning technology within the Empire. Begging the half-joking question..."where do Stormtrooper babies come from?" The public may know about places like "the academy" (where Luke wanted to enroll)...but GL recently has hinted that there is more then meets the eye to this.

Even if cloning was still going on, during OT, GL mentioned something that would indicate that there may be more then one source of material for Stormtrooper clones. If this is the case (with GL...ya never know till opening night) could we agree that the Empire recruits/trains loyal citizens...for cloning "an army of one"

 

>>>In ANH they talk about the Academy were recruits are trained. So I think that that shows that there are Recruits.

The only mention of an academy in ANH is where Luke wants to go. There's nothing about what sort of academy it is, let alone anything about them training stormtroopers there.

Seeing as how Luke is "a little short for a stormtrooper", so he probably wouldn't have been able to become one, even if they did take recruits.

 

In my opinion, the Empire does have certain requirements for a stormtrooper in terms of physical build. You wouldn't want a 400 pound trooper trying to chase down fugitives or a 10 foot tall stormtrooper constantly bumping his head. There are certain things that recruits must be, a uniform height and weight or so, so it seems more menacing. You want everyone to look exactly the same.

As Sparks said once on Sealab 2021:

"Look man, it's a uniform. Everybody looks the same? It's more terrifying that way."

So, you'd think the Empire would like all their recruits to look the same.

 

I doubt they'd want Yoda-sized troopers either!

 

Of course it is! If you saw Yoda pointing a blaster at you, your first instinct would be to chuckle a little. While you're doing this, however, Yoda Stormie fries you.

 

I just thought I'd post some stuff from Matthew Stover, author of Shatterpoint.

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[i]<<Time has passed, he had the option to paint an epic picture of the Clone Wars, and instead we get rediculous minimalism. 1.2 million troops would be lucky to hold down one world. There are millions. The droid factories should be making 10s of the 1000s of droids per day, and they should just be overrunning everywhere because the Republic, in Stover's mind, can't field as many troops as many of the countries on Earth.>> [/i]

[b]In MY mind?

Take it up with Mr. Lucas.[/b] [hr]

[hr]It being a bit late to nip this in the bud, let me try to nip it in full flower.

[b]I had to work with what I was given. That's what I did. There are factors that I am not at liberty to discuss. [/b]

Perhaps -- as I said again and again, in regard to TRAITOR -- [b]everyone would be better served to wait and see how it all plays out, before anyone starts to kick and scream.[/b] [hr][/blockquote]

 

In ANH they talk about the Academy were recruits are trained. So I think that that shows that there are Recruits.

the academy is the navel academy. as you see on star destroyers, regular people, not clones crew the ships. that is one place people wind up after going to the academy. if you look up biggs or the academy in the star wars enclyclopedia it also says it's a navel academy and explains that biggs after going gets assigned to a merchant vessel. there is nothing that says the academy is for stormtroopers.

i think the issue really though is not if there are humans serving the empire in the military, because it is apparent that they are. BUT, we see them all. they are officers, and the guys in the black domed helmets and the crews of star destroyers and other various imperial vessels. if you are talking about a trooper in white armor, than it is a clone. the distinction is pretty simple. GL has made it easy, stormtroopers are clones from various sources. imperial academy trains the various regular humans in the empire for the navy. the end.

 

The Academy does train stormtroopers. Kyle Katarn, Davin Felth and Zeth Durron all received stormtrooper training on Carida.

 

granted, but who says the academy IS carida? post proof that the navel academy and carida are the same place.

 

There's more than one academy.

Caridan Military Academy

Imperial Academy

Academy, The

Durron, Zeth

Felth, Davin

You can read about the academy at those links.

 

don't you think your post would be more convincing if it didn't use the "completely unofficial star wars encyclopedia 5.1" as a reference. the "completely unofficial" part kinda nullifies the concrete proof effect.

so as i said, if anyone can prove that carida is the same place as the "academy" that luke speaks of, please do.

 

don't you think your post would be more convincing if it didn't use the "completely unofficial star wars encyclopedia 5.1" as a reference. the "completely unofficial" part kinda nullifies the concrete proof effect.

Nope. It's "unofficial" because it doesn't have a copyright on it. You think TFN would host something that has a bunch of wrong info in it? I have yet to see any in-accurate info coming from it, and besides a few spelling/grammar errors, it's a great source for info.

I think you're just in denial that I was able to post proof so quickly, and do not wish to accept that we are able to do so.

Anyway, here's the sources for this info:

HoloNetNews.com, Issues 55 through 59
Droids: The Adventures of R2-D2 and C-3PO
Droids: The Animated Adventures of R2-D2 and C-3PO
The Paradise Snare
Jedi Search
Champions of the Force
The Imperial Sourcebook
The Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition
Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina
Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Characters

 

Plus, I Jedi states that Luke planned to join the Carida Academy.