Saga Are Mind Tricks a Jedi technique rather than a Sith one?

I was recently reading Marvel's Darth Vader comic, and there's a great scene early on in it where Vader pays a visit to Jabba the Hutt to arrange an arms deal. Jabba gloats that "Jedi mind tricks" won't work on him, to which Vader responds that he isn't a Jedi and has no need for mind tricks, then force chokes Jabba and kills a bunch of his men until Jabba gives in to his demands. Its a very fun scene that serves as a nice callback to Luke in Jabba's Palace in the beginning of RotJ, but it also got me thinking...

In all of the films, and as far as I can think of in all of current canon, I don't think we've ever seen a Sith Lord employ a Jedi mind trick. In the old EU (e.g. KOTOR) they did so, but never in the films, and not really in the current canon that I can think.

This is interesting, because the Jedi we see use mind tricks a lot. Obi-Wan of course famously uses one in Mos Eisley. Luke mind tricks bib fortuna. In the PT, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan mind trick a bunch of people. Jedi are in fact so known for the technique, that most of the galaxy explicitly call it a "Jedi Mind Trick". This makes a lot of sense, because mind tricks are usually about conflict avoidance. Its not that Obi-Wan can't kill those stormtroopers, but he doesn't want to. We also know that Jedi have no problem whatsoever with lying and deception if it serves a greater good. Even the way that mind tricks affect the brain, making the target more docile and accepting, seems in keeping with Jedi philosophy.

In contrast, none of the Sith we ever see have any reason to even bother with mind tricks. They're either brute force types like Vader and Maul (Opress and Ventress, the two almost-apprentices, also fall into this vein), where if some non force user gets in their way they simply kill them (its worth noting that Vader in the OT actually lies a lot less than Obi-Wan does), or else they're like Palpatine and Dooku, so convinced of their own intellectual superiority that they have no need for mind tricks to manipulate others. Either way, non force users are considered so far beneath the Sith that the notion of spending time and energy to use the force to help you lie to them probably seembeneaththem. For Sith, the Universe has two kinds of people--rival force users who should either be corrupted or destroyed (but can't generally be mind tricked), and non force users who are mostly insignificant and inferior (and therefore not even worth mind tricking). For the Sith, true power lies in hatred and anger, but tapping into your hatred in order to make someone more accepting/believing isn't necessarily an intuitive step. Even a manipulative schemer like Palpatine is never shown tapping into the force to trick non force users like Padme and the other senators, he just lies convincingly regardless.

I'm sure that mind tricking isn't impossible for the Sith--for one thing, many of them are fallen Jedi who presumably remember their old training--but I suspect that for the Sith, performing a mind trick on a non force user is a bit like how a Jedi feels about force choking someone. Its not necessarily that they can't do it if the situation absolutely demands it, but it isn't how they want to be using the force or what their training is focused on.

To sum up, The reason we only ever see Jedi rather than Sith mind tricking people in the films and shows is because "Jedi Mind tricks' really are a Jedi technique rather than a Sith one, because they're about conflict avoidance and involve making people more trusting/accepting, rather than tapping into hatred to dominate and destroy with raw power. Even Sith who lie a lot (like Sidious) don't respect non force users enough to even bother with mind tricks in most cases.

 

In the TCW movie, Ventress tries to "mind-trick" Rex into contacting Anakin.

 

]Mind-tricking, while I understand why some find it creepy, is a hell of a lot more "light side" than any tricks the Sith use.
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LOL sure...

"you will do what I say you weak minded fool"

is more light side than

"from my point of view the Jedi and Sith are similar, I have power to save your wife if you're dumb enough to believe me" etc.

 

well no denying that,

but in my opinion to say Jedi mind trick is "lighter than XYZ" is not true,

any deceptive use isn't.

 

I assumed that it was all merely telepathy. Are you guys trying to say that Jedi mind trick is not evil, while the Sith version is? Because I'm a little confused with these "light" and "dark" phrases.

 

basically what I'm getting from the conversation is

"everything Jedi do= good"

"everything Sith do= bad"

but then again perceptions vary.

 

Lies and trickery are the weapons of the Jedi. The Jedi mind trick fits in well with their tendencies.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

The selectively-revealed and painful truth is the weapon of the Sith.

"No. I am your father."

 

Which is worse?

A mind trick or a force choke?

 

both are as bad as each other.

Are you guys seriously telling me you wouldn't mind being forced to do something against your own will and there is nothing you can do about it?

Edit: actually you don't need to respond to that question, I've no interest in starting a circular argument with the same people, over the same sort of things. So that theoretical question will be my last post in the thread.

 

Alright, I'll bite for one last time...

say you had children (I think you do Anakinfan though I'm not 100 percent certain) and some guy came along and said "you don't love your children" would you NOT say that's equally as bad?

now, I know, I know that if a strong minded person who loved their children was asked that question it wouldn't work. But go with me for the sake of argument.

 

The only Jedi that would do that is C'Boath. Because he is crazy.

 

Anakinfan: I knew you wouldn't even try to get the point I was making...so...I'm out

Happy debating people.

 

I wonder if Palpatine mind-tricked Senators. I once read an interesting theory that when Dooku said that Sidious is influencing Senators, the Jedi looked for someone mind-tricking Senators.

 

In Labyrinth of Evil, Palpatine mind-tricks Grievous after being abducted.

 

Also some Gamorreans, and I think what Dooku did to Obi-Wan in ROTS counts as a choke.

 

The thing to remember about the Sith is that for all practical purposes, the Sith arts are the Jedi arts. The Sith order was founded by a Jedi, and while the Sith have either developed or appropriated other abilities that the Jedi shun, it's still the Jedi arts that form the basis of a Sith's skills. I have no doubt whatsoever that anything a Jedi can do, a Sith can do.

So why didn't we see Sith employ mind tricks? I think simply because there wasn't really any occasion to. The Jedi mind trick has a major limitation: it only works on the weak-minded. I believe that this is a limitation of the technique itself, rather than a sign that the Jedi or Sith in question simply isn't strong enough with the Force. Only some fraction of the population is ever going to be susceptible to this technique, and it doesn't matter whether it's being performed by a former padawan like Kanan or by a master like Yoda. As long as the technique is executed properly the weak-minded will fall for it, but the strong-minded just won't.

In the six films so far, I just don't remember any particular time when a Sith would have needed to use a mind trick on someone who would fall for it. We only ever see Sith interacting with subordinates who are going to just follow the Sith's orders anyway; or else with the film's heroes, who wouldn't be vulnerable to it. Anakin, Luke, Han, Padme, Leia, Lando, Obi-Wan ... none of them seem particularly weak-minded. So who is it that we think Sidious, Vader, Dooku, or Maul should have tried mind-tricking?

 

It really comes down to intent.

 

I don't doubt that he did when necessary, but I'm sure he enjoyed it more when he tricked someone to act for him of their own free will.

 

Palpatine just manipulated the Senate through fear, bribery and treachery. He didn't need to manipulate the minds with the Force. The Jedi only rely on them as a passive and speedy method of getting things done.