Discussions Are Sith Really Evil? Are Jedi really Evil? Are Both?

Now before we start this thread I want to point something out this is a place for civil debates using evidence and you are excepted to keep it civil. You may not begin roleplaying under ANY cirmstances. Now lets begin
My Agrument: Both Jedi and Sith are evil:
Now to show how the jedi are evil I have found a video explaining it. He is one of my favortie YouTubers, but I fully agree with all his points.

And now for a few more points of mine:
The jedi don't allow their members to take up another ocupation after they complete their training, even if it would help the galaxy a lot such as becoming a teacher.
The jedi take young childern away from their families, and don't tell them the idenity of their famlies. Now I know how Ankiain knowing whom his parents were did push him closer to the darkside, but that was differant. She was a slave and living a screwed up life. After Obi won got the backing of the concuil and probaly a lot of money they could of freed Sheme and relocated her prehaps to the middle rim. Then they just wouldn't let him take missions on that planet.
Now this isn't really evil, but just a problem:
They are suppost to be peaceful, but they are the senate's first choice to lead an army.
Now most people know why the SIth are evil, but here is a list:
Due to the "rule of two" there is never a real master/apprentice bond.

Sith want to rule the galaxy under totarain/millitary/dictatorships.
They have no qualms with slaugtering civilains
They frequenly "prun" their own ranks
Under Sith rule, evil people are more alound to flurish.

And now, what are your argements. Also Darth Dreadwar claims that he can convinze us that the Sith are the good guys.

 

Which is more evil, those that commit to evil or those that do nothing to stop it? That's the true question. The Sith have no problem with committing heinous acts, but the Jedi won't always do whatever is absolutely necessary to stop them.

 

Good point. But what acts are really evil. Anyway I think jedi started going downhill when they got involed on one side of a war. I mean jedi should be like the UN, just only with jedi and the senate as backing. So more like docoters without borders.

 

I would say that the indiscriminate killing of civilians or military officials, simply because they displease you, would be considered evil. Or slavery. Jedi typically oppose slavery, the Sith support slavery if it suits their purposes. However, the Jedi won't do anything to stop slavery.

 

Jedi good. Sith bad.

 

The Jedi are good and The Sith are bad.

 

Well, this is by no means exhaustive, as I wouldn't want to preemptively knock down all the potential counter-arguments... Note that all of the elements below are drawn from Legends, and sometimes there are contradictions between Legends works, which is where pick-and-choosing comes in.

I'm a big believer in transhumanism, improving the quality of life, trying to create a technological utopia, immortality, things like that. The Sith, with their goals of immortality, have come the furthest in their transhumanist efforts, from the technique of essence transfer to biological immortality. The Jedi are conservative, backwards monks who kidnap children and raise them in a cult-like setting where they are not only taught to repress their emotions, their humanity, with even a staple of organic life (familial and romantic love) being barred, but they're also essentially reared as child soldiers. The Jedi embrace death; sure, they call it "becoming one with the Force," but right up until Yoda and Qui-Gon rediscovered the lost art of becoming a Force ghost, Jedi cozy up to the permanent dissolution of sapient identity. Again, they give it a nice name, a la "going to Heaven," but let's not ignore the fact that Jedi are deathists, unlike the Sith, and that is moral anathema to me given the lack of evidence for what they claim.

The very first conflict between Jedi and their dark counterparts who would become Sith Lords? It was because the Dark Jedi were using the Force to manipulate life. Creating new life, changing life, seeking immortality... These Dark Jedi were trying to create a utopia without the horrors of death and biological affliction, yet manipulating life was "unnatural" according to the Jedi, so they were cast out. How sad, that the galaxy could have become a utopia, yet instead the Sith were forced into their own small corner of space, free to work on creating utopia, and defeating death. The Sith are forward-thinkers who recognise the vast potential for the Force to be used for good; is using a few tricks like pushing things around as part of a galactic police force (who have a license to kill that, if held by modern day police forces, would horrify us) really the most effectively altruistic use of the Force? No, the Sith wanted to unlock the Force's full potential, and remake the universe into a utopia with their powers, just as we today are unravelling the mysteries of the universe, remaking the world into one friendlier to human existence. The Sith arts of alchemy and dark side devices like the Star Forge could have cured all diseases, removed death from the equation, and even ended all resource shortages thus turning the galaxy into a post-scarcity civilisation. They would have brought about a technological singularity, and the end results would probably look like something out of Iain Banks' Culture series.

Consider that the Sith's worst atrocities have been in wartime, and that the Jedi and Republic are no saints on that score, even stooping to the degree of attempted genocide against the entire Sith species - men, women and innocent children. However harsh, the ends-justifies-the-means approach of certain Sith to me is far ethically superior to the unscientific "There is no death, there is the Force" dogma of the Jedi.

Personally, I believe the entire premise of the Jedi is a lie, an obfuscation of their true, more insidious purpose. I do not subscribe to the view that there are metaphysically separate sides to the Force. I believe the only 'side' is the dark side, that what sapients term the dark side is merely the unrestrained nature of the Force. Probably one of the best summaries of this view can be found here, in the form of an 'alternative' dialogue between Anakin and Palpatine in ROTS. At the risk of channeling Mencius Moldbug and his admittedly persuasive thoughts on progressivism, I'd say the Republic is a great lie as well. There is a saying: If you wish to fathom an obscure plot, observe the results and see who benefits. For all its institutionalised talk of freedom and democracy, what the Republic actually achieves, and how it does, when looking at all its history, looks suspiciously like yet another alien race's conquering, exploiting, interstellar empire; the aliens I speak of here are humans, of course. So engineered was their rise that they were able to openly oppress, enslave and conquer countless alien races yet still be forgiven by pinning it on the Pius Dea. So cunning is the narrative they craft, that by the time of the movies the Sith are generally seen as the bad guys, yet all we see is a corrupt-to-the-core (literally) Republic that ruthlessly exploits the Outer Rim Territories that they conquered long ago, causing the disenfranchisement that results in the Separatist movement and later, funnily enough, the Rebel Alliance. But ignore the narrative, pierce the obfuscations, see what the history of the galaxy actually looks like. If the Republic good and the Sith Empires evil, how come we see, time and time again, a mere few dozen Jedi-turned-Sith forging an Empire with the many peoples of the Rim flocking to their banner? We see this explicitly in Revan's Empire, and Ruin's. No Sith machinations, those initial territories that formed the kernel of these Empires weren't conquered by a revanchist fleet or a handful of Jedi, no, we see mass popular support for the Sith. Again, almost suspiciously as if everything from the Inner Rim outwards knows the Republic to be an exploitative, evil regime, and look to the Sith as their saviors!

Of course you can handwave this away by saying this comes to Sith manipulation. But consider whether a mere few Sith could sway entire swathes of the galaxy to their cause, to form a rival Empire in open revolt against the Republic, in a matter of a couple of years. If we saw something like that happen on Earth - a handful of individuals out of the blue forge an entirely new territory that controls half of the planet within a few years, with vast legions of troops recruited from their enemy's former territory - the only conclusion would be that clearly this is a mass revolt, in essence, against the prior dominant superpower, that clearly this must be deserved and just at least in part. So don't think of it in terms of Sith manipulation. Politicians and leaders in general manipulate; the Sith are no exception. But think of it in terms of manipulation by the Republic, and the Jedi - and make no mistake, the Jedi are unelected politicians and leaders, as well as heads of the military, with ridiculous extrajudicial powers and happy to subvert democratic process and assassinate a Chancellor for his entirely legal religious affiliation.

To sum up:

"There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere."

 

it's really just old beef when you think about it. each faction wants their place in the galaxy while the other faction is diminished or eliminated. both factions have different styles of leadership ideas/ways of coexisting in the galaxy. considering the sith and their traditions, their civilization was built on ideas that promote aggression, anger and expressions of such as normal and even empowering when embraced. the aftermath of such expressions, though, was never beneficial for all, just for one. leading to destruction. but, destruction is also a way of the universe just as much as creation. sometimes i like to think it's archaic versus modern give the sith's leanings towards alchemy and magic. old beliefs versus constantly changing and ever evolving...

 

The Jedi have good intentions but I'm with the folk above who think they are pretty amoral: kidnapping children and teaching them to repress their emotions, not letting them have contact with their families and rejecting close personal relationships. That's emotional abuse guys. Also the fact that they use them as child soldiers. I have no problem with kids being taught lightsaber technique but sending them into battle is downright inhuman.

 

The "kidnapping children" bit is one of the things the EU is very inconsistent on - some stories stress that parents are free to choose not to hand their children over - some don't. And of course in TPM Qui-Gon gives Shmi a say as to whether Anakin is to go or not (and she gives Anakin a say).

 

Qui-Gon doesn't exactly give Anakin an informed choice. He tells him it will be difficult but try telling any nine year old something like that, most don't have the maturity to understand the ramifications of a big decision. I find the Legends timeline daunting in it's size but I do think it got a lot right, allowing Jedi to have families and actual human relationships unlike the cardboard cut-outs that Lucas gave us. It made me empathise more with the characters and made for more dynamic stories.

 

Dreadwar explained it best when it came to the jedi, but I have something to add. Instead of seeing only the dark or light sides of the force I see it as a collective. It is wholly based on the individual on what they do with the force. There is no darkside except in others minds hence they draw on their darker emotions to achieve such feats while the jedi let themselves become slaves to the force serving nearly destroying their sense of self. Instead similar to the Aing-Tii I see it as a rainbow, the force can be used to accomplish many things but in the end its down to the user how it is perceived.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head RabidBunny although it is often suggested that the Force has intentions and isn't simply a passive entity. I'd agree that it is up to you to use it for your own purposes and that there is no light or dark side but that the Force simply reflects and feeds the emotions you decide to build on such as anger or hatred.

That said, the Jedi's total rejection of these feelings seems so stupid. By denying and rejecting parts of the natural human psyche they have a terrifically skewed perception of life and yet they believe themselves to be righteous and good. I wish we saw more different takes on the Force in the canon material. We get glimpses of it with Qui-Gon but it would be nice to see more interpretations of the Force (and perhaps we will through Luke in part 8 - here's hoping!)

 

Qui-Gon was trained by Dooku We must assume that many of Qui-Gon's practices were reflections of Dooku's teachings. Dooku wasn't really a super bad guy, he was just disillusioned with the order. He really thought that he would bring peace and order to the galaxy by joining the Sith.

 

I think its all about point of view.
The Jedi and the Sith don't think they are evil at all. But the Sith are willing to do anything in order to achieve power, control etc.
I don't think Vader ever thought he was evil himself. I just think he was willing to go further in order to get things done. As oppose to Yoda who was more peaceful.
The Jedi would prefer no collateral damage
The Sith aren't worried about collateral damage as long as **** gets done

Basically
The Jedi Defend
The Sith Attack
The Jedi Attack
The Sith defend

Point of view

 

I lean to the view that they were cast out after being caught kidnapping people, experimenting on them, and so forth.