Are stormtroopers clones?

Actually a Roman legion varied. In the first eras of the republic/empire a Legion was 3,000 troops while around the time of Christ it was 6,000 troops.

As for the movie you have to account that they couldn't squeeze 3,000-6,000 men into such a small area. They were probably scattered out farther. Plus it would have taken a lot of effort from the makers to get 3,000-6,000 actors and uniforms/armor plus film them all. So even if we don't see that many doesn't mean there wasn't that many. It kind of goes along with that there were multiple Calamari Cruisers present at the battle yet in the movie we really only get to see a maximum of 3(2 of them being Home One and the Liberty). But at the end of the movie when the Death Star is about to blow up you can see ships that have the relative size and engine configuration of a Calamari Cruiser and there are many other sources supporting the multiple Calamari Cruisers. So just because we can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

As for the 1,000 troops equaling a legion that doesn't make much sense, because www.starwars.com say that Stormtroopers can be organized into battalions of 820. And usually when you use a different classification it is made up of several of the lower organization. Like a division is made up of several regiments. Also www.starwars.com has a clearly structured system. It goes squads, platoons, companies, battalions, regiments, and legions. So a legion should consist of several regiments and a regiment should be several battalions and battalions have 820 troops.

 

Wow. I was worried that I'd missed a lot of good debating.
*wipes brow*
Good thing I didn't miss out any much important. Although I now have a better understanding of the definition of fallacy than I ever really needed and/or wanted.
Yarr.
Anywho, I just thought that I'd point out that the officers we see in Attack of the Clones are indeed clones. Lieutenants wear blue stripes on their battle armor, captains red, "commanders" gold. Unless commander is an army rank in the Old Republic, I'm assuming they're intending that to mean company and battalion commanders.
Just thought I'd correct whomever it was so very many posts ago that asserted that the officers were non-clones.

 

Exactly. There were Clone Troopers in command and it even says "The clones designated for command duty were specifically trained in that capacity." Plus "they still maintained a spark of independent and creative thinking, making them far more suited to handle unexpected turns of warfare than droids." So they were capable of some independent and creative thought, so one would expect some Imperial officers to be clones.

Oh yeah meant to do this before, but I want to express my apologies for the arguement between myself and Valiento.

 

It's also important to remember that these battles are referred to as "the Clone Wars". This is a clear indication that clones were involved, but doesn't mean that they remained the only source of fighting soldiers afterwards.

This would explain why officers and such do not appear to be clones in the OT.

 

To further the point that not all stormtroopers were clones or that there were no clones as stormtroopers, which either one, here is some facts from X-Wing: The Bacta War, page 145:

The SpecNav troops led the way. Though they were as big as stormtroopers, Sixtus's men were deceptively swift and deathly quiet. Iella was more than happy they were on her side. As scary as facing stormtroopers might have been, fighting against these men would have been worse. At one point they had been selected to join the Imperial Navy's most elite fighting unit, and the product of their skills proved that choice had been a wise one.


I have been sick this whole week, and I am still sick, and a little out of it, so if I get this wrong, please, kindly correct me. Thanks.

Okay, I thought clones were not able to switch sides. Its like having the clones of AOTC turning on the Jedi mid way through the Clone Wars and fighting for the droid armies.

Yes, these SpecNav troops may not be clones, but if you say that, that could imply that all non-cloned stormtroopers and SpecNav troops would switch sides from the Empire to the Rebellion.

Secondily, if these SpecNav troops were not stormtroopers first, if the Empire had clones, why use a non-clone for such an important position. A SpecNav trooper can be a lot more useful then a single stormtrooper and a lot more deadiler.

Thirdly, I thought clones, except when modified like in AOTC for the officers, can not be modified. Like, you can't just change the training for a clone just because you want him or her stronger. Why would the Empire spend the extra money to just train a few hundred, maybe, just maybe, a thousand clones to be better then the rest? If they did that, why no clone stormtrooper and other military officers? Thus, you wouldn't have all the defections.




I have one last point to make here about stormtroopers and being clones. If stormtroopers were all clones, or at least some were clones, why did they stay with the Imperial Warlords? Why didn't they take over the ships or bases they were on and defect back to what remained of the Galactic Empire propper after the Emperor died? If you say because they didn't no better, then that would be saying stormtroopers are a bunch of mindless drones and that would work into the clone theroy, I guess, but then it would imply that the Empire choose the stupidest people ever to be used as stormtrooper templates for clones.

And if you say they couldn't, come on, a whole stormtrooper division, 9,700 troops, can take over a Star Destroyer in no time, even if they were outnumbered. And if you say they didn't want to, then that implies that stormtroopers are not clones, because they had the ability to think for themselves, where as clones were trained, most likely and as seen in AOTC, since birth.

And if you say they thought they were with the Empire propper, what happens when stormtroopers face stormtroopers in battle? Don't you think they would get the clue? And although we don't hear about ground battles that much, how do you think Imperial Warlords took over planets from other Imperial Warlords? You can't control a city, let alone a planet, from space. How are you going to maintain order? Shoot turbolasers down at them? What happens when they don't stop and you need that city's or that palnet's resources? You are gonna send in troops, either Imperial Army Troopers or stormtroopers, depending on the mission profile, and take over the city or planet.

 

I'm going to try and use my *ignites lightsaber of truth* to try and resolve this arguement. I hope my new blood can help even if you seem to have covered virtually everything.

Some facts before we proceed to remind everyone...

FACT: George Lucas had clones always exist in Star Wars (he loves his THX-1138) as the Clone Wars were mentioned by Leia in the famous hologram.

FACT: Timothy Zahn decided to build on the Star Wars model by adding clones but he assumed that stormtroopers were not cloned but normal humans as clones were portrayed as illegal and horrofic monstrocities no legitmate organized government would support. The Thrawn Trilogy is built on the premise that the Spaarti cylinders are as rare and as valuable as finding a Death Star (Wait....Darksaber, Eye of Palpatine, Tarkin...GOOD LORD)

FACT: Eu followed the Zahn model with Zuckuss pointing out cloning is illegal with rare exceptions. Apparently the technology exists on Ithor (Tales from the Mos Eisely Cantina) as well as in vast amounts on the planet of Dorsk 81 and 82's birth (Dark Saber) which indicates (along with the fact on Earth its nearly here) that its not an impossible technology but like cloaking devices (also made rare by Zahn) is fairly rare.

Fact: George apparently never considered his ideas that rare. Captain Needa obviously knows cloaking devices are used and its possible that in Episode III we might see a million shops decloak at once (BOY would THAT screw some people up). The Stormtroopers were created by the Kaminoans is the heavy impliance by imagery that their uniforms and headbanging imply.

He's also said the stormtroopers are clones.

Fact: The EU isn't going to argue with George so immediately they began inserting references to clones all throughout the Empire.

Fact: Fans love a coherent mythology and thus these mistakes aren't actually mistakes but somehow all fit together in a neat little package or they don't which is cause for much griping.

Fact: This thread's not quite obvious goal is to find a believable continuity tweak that doens't make everyone look like morons.

*waves lightsaber of truth*

Now for the "in-universe answer"

The obvious fact seems to be that the people of the galaxy react with fear, prejudice, and awe to those who are clones. As Prince Xizor's seeing two identical twins seems to indicate though, it seems its quite possible that cloning continues under controlled circumstances throughout the galaxy. Much like back alley abortions or organ selling its a horrofic activitiy of the educated and amoral or simply different cultured (Ithorians, Dorsk's people)

The Kaminoans might have been devastated in the war and quite possibly were but Timothy Zahn's recent story indicates that Palpatine ordered the creation as Supreme Chancellor of vast number of clone facilities throughout the galaxy. My guess is that it was probably simiplicity that Wayland was one of them and he simply destroyed all records regarding it.....this would explain the constant references to destroyed data during the Clone Wars.

The war itself didn't destroy libraries and the like but the Emperor made a conscious decision to destroy great amounts of knowledge in the galaxy.

As someone mentioned its probably because of the Battle Droids that the famous assaisin droid ban was enacted and we don't see the Emperor wielding legions of robot troopers throughouit the galaxy, it might also explain the prejudice in some part that the average person has against droids (see the bartender and droid detectors). Aside from the natural prejudice against thinking machines-they hate the memories of the slaughterbeasts.

Palpatine gets rid of the droids publically as a display of good faith as he keeps a few for his own purposes hidden away, possibly carrying on research as IG-88's existence seems to indicate.

However Palpatine is a tyrant and evil, he probably doesn't want to give up his amoral souless clones. EMPIRE indicates that certain officials throughout the Empire (A Grand Moff) know that stormtroopers are c

 

There's still holes (always will be, I guess) with your hypothesis, but it's not unreasonable.

It still strikes me as statistically impossible, even mathematically impossible, for the Rebellion/New Republic to have never noticed clones until five years after Endor.

And if there was a cloning facility on Carida, why was the planet abandoned by the Fleet? Such a planet would be indespensible to the war effort.

It just doesn't add up. Especially when one considers the degree of scrutiny that LFL had over Zahn's books. In one of his interviews, he rattled off a list of things that they said were okay and things that they wouldn't let him do (like call the Noghri 'Sith" thus explaining why Vader was called 'Dark Lord of the Sith'), and clones were in the okay category. It's just awkward.

 

At the time, it was still relatively new. I would say that they probably weren't as stringent about what Zahn wrote, giving him more freedom than they should have.

Or, GL just changed his mind later. It's important to note that GL doesn't consider the story finished until he's done with EIII. Until then, it's all fluid.

Things just won't get concrete until after EIII is released.

 

Well if its mathmatically impossible there must be some other answer; in this respect its entirely possible that the Rebellion DID know about the clones but for whatever reason kept it silent.

Possibly Mon Mothma, General Cracken, or others. I imagine others had suspicions the stormtroopers were clones (like Star Wars fans) to begin with.

However that Leia wouldn't know I find improbable so its possible that instead Cracken and intelligence kept it secret.

Which I find also improbable but in Sherlock Holmes's words....whatever is left after being impossible must be the correct version.

If they did keep it secret I imagine it might be to avoid widespread panic amongst the troops, to use as a propaganda tool against the Empire when the time was right (it never really came), or to see if some form of "Delta Red" virus could be made against them.

Anytime someone reported it they probably sent in the RiB (Rebels in Black)



A wild unsound theory that makes little sense but the goal here is to make sense of a difficult situation in this galaxy not simply say it doesn't make sense.

As for the Cloning facility on Carida, this is only supposition but my personal idea is this...

It is possible its not the cloning facility. Its just a pet theory.

BUT

It was never in any real danger first of all even without fleet protection. It was militarily unassailable with its shields and ground defenses....probably dozens of ion canons and more.

Not to mention the millions of troops on the planet.

Second of all if the Emperor is dead and so is all the Grand Moffs, Supreme Prophets, and Thrawn....

Then simply put no one probably knows that the Stormtroopers are still producing clones. Ambassador/Headmaster/Imperial governor Furgen's power base solely would come from his ability to continue to produce soulless Imperials and we know by the Jedi Academy Trilogy that he has designs on the Throne himself.

Quite reasonable if he could alter all the STs to be loyal to him though this again wild whimsy

Re: Stormtroopers we DO know who might be clones.

Kir Kanos seems a perfect candidate actually for them because Kir seems to lack a history beyond the vaguely defined (culled from the best of the best), his loyalty to Palpatine seems ingrained yet he doesn't really seem to have any reason for it, he doesn't seem to have any interests save fighting

*disignites lightsaber of truth*

In fact it was always my personal theory that he was the Clone of Kyle Katarrn but this of course is as highly improbable as Mara Jade being Obi Wan and Siri's daughter.

 

In the latest issue of HNN, Carida was approved as a training ground for the clones.

That doesn't mean of course, that there's a cloning facility on Carida. It's still interesting though.

 

No matter which camp you are in (pro-clone or no-clone), this subject is really sticky, continuity-wise.

As I recall, there was a great deal of LFL scrutiny for Zahn's trilogy, BTW. A whole lot.

 

in the thrawn trillogy htere was an odd resonance in the force when luke or mara were near two or more of the same clones.

 

A note on why Mara Jade wouldn't know...

She seemed surprised at the possibility of Thrawn using clones and more than mildly upset, her reaction wasn't "Well blowing up Wayland won't stop your clone infestation there's a billion on Carida."

Not to mention also that she was unaware of the Emperor's cloning himself which seems to be something that those REALLY trusted should be aware of.

Though its questionable whether even Darth Vader knew of it.

Instead it seems Mara remains the James Bond of the Empire. She's the Emperor's 'best' and most 'personal' super secret agent but her actual access to state secrets while considerable (Mount Tantiss) is there to foster the illusion of power and trust with the Emperor's destiny vs. actually having power and trust (not even knowing of other hands)

Palpatine is infamous for this in the fact that from the Stormtroopers up to Vader himself Palpatine gives his followers power over others that is intoxicating and access to forbidden knowledge...but its never more than them and all the 'freaky titles' won't cover up the fact they're slaves.

Its like the Dark Side corruption of Jedi on a mass scale and even 20 years past Mara still suffers from it.

 

But Mara wasn't of the dark side, as much was explained in The Last Command. Mara was just force-sensative. As I recall, she wasn't even a full-flegded Jedi/Dark Jedi.

 

True, the Emperor seemed to be deliberately trying to keep Mara from the Dark Side of the Force (thus becoming a rival to him) by fostering patriotism to the New Order as well as paternal view daughter like feelings to him.

Yet ALSO was trying to keep her grounded and cynical enough (sending a live trooper in the ranks of robot-stormtroopers) that she was never a Light side Jedi either....thus keeping her from becoming a threat.

The Emperor's experiment in creating force sensetive loyal super-agents is my opinion of the matter

 

Though its questionable whether even Darth Vader knew of it.

He did. In one of the Star Wars Mission books he talks to the Emperor who has just taken a new clone body and is recuperating in a bacta tank.

 

Sweet Jebus, how many times did the bastard clone himself?!

 

One thing to note is that the only clones who probably gave off that weird Force-vibe were the ones from Wayland, or created with Spaarti cylinders ( as Palpatine was on Byss. ) Otherwise, Luke, Leia and other Jedi hopefuls would have felt something odd about the thousands of stormtroopers they had fought in battles previous to the Thrawn Trilogy.

 

A question: If Vader knew that Palpatine was taking clone bodies, why didn't he want the same thing for himself?? Palpatine could have easily made it possible for him, as he did with Bevel Lemelisk several times. Thus Vader could get rid of his ruined body and protective armor.

 

Maybe this was bait for Vader to kill Skywalker, or turn him. The promise of a new, restored body.

Either that or Vader viewed himself as machine, and beyond the weakened flesh of Anakin Skywalker.

 

Either that, or they didn't feel Force resonance because they weren't predominantly clones. They didn't sense clones because they almost never encountered them. Other than in the very early days of the Alliance up until the Battle of Yavin, is it not possible that cloned stormtroopers had died out?

 

This is slightly off topic but all this cloning inEU really ruins Star Wars a little. A mean cloning Stormtroopers is one thing but cloning all these main characters like Palpatine and Luke. It is a real let down. Also what is the point of the cloning? For Palpatine all he could really do is be a figure head unless he went through the same training and experiences the real Palpatine had. I haven't actually read these and they probably come up with an explanation but really...how realistic is it could someone explain? Do we even know the clones would have Force capability like their true selves? Same thing with Luke...what could his clone have really done?

Could someone please explain if possible?

Even if there is an explanation it really just sounds like the authors were reaching and got nothing so they decided hey lets make clones of these guys. It does just seem to degrade the image of Star Wars.

 

Vader didn't know the technique Palpatine did and it seemed in Shadows of the Empire that he was attempting to develop a Force technique that would repair his own body.

He also took note of the fact Palpatine's clone bodies decayed far faster than normal.

And to answer your question on Palpatine and his 'clone'

In truth Palpatine was never cloned in the term that a clone of the original was created to replacethe old. In the EU you can have all of your experience 'preserved' and put into a clone which may even be unaware that it is real.

Its a scary thought but Isard's clone is an example of one, identical to the original in all ways. It wasn't used as a method of ressurection though but an odd plot point.

Palpatine on the other one is ressurected not cloned (like Darth Maul in Tales). Using Sith magic he preserved his soul from Endor to his citadel on Byss where he transplanted his essence into a clone body and began preparations to return himself to Life.

Mara Jade didn't want to believe it was the real Palpatine but all Out of character sources say it was and furthermore that she would have been executed for her failure with Luke in the Hand of thrawn.

Dark Empire is in my opinion the second greatest of Star Wars literature after the Thrawn Trilogy as it shows the EMpire at its most diabolical and returns to the ideals of battling good vs. evil with Leia as the second most powerful Jedi and destined to take her side as Luke's foremost apprentice.

(grumbles)

The Emperor's immortality troubles alot of people because it claims to overshadow Vader's action at teh end of RotJ but I argue that Vader still lead to the Rebel victory and his children finished the legacy of rebuilding the galaxy and the Jedi along with killing him off.

 

Well, couldn't it be that the legion of stormtroopers was scattered across Endor, so we could only see about 100-1000 range at most?
Besides, if cloning of stormtroopers is really that extensive (cloning and flash memory imprinting might also explain how Palps got his Dark Empire stuff going on so quickly), wouldn't Pellaeon have caught on to it during his rule over the Empire, and scrapped together enough resources to build himself a clone army? And on another note, wouldn't Isard, being Director of Intelligence, have churned her own clone army? Or any of off and on successors between Palps, Isard, Thrawn, Palps again have figured it out somewhat and built a few clones?
I also find it improbable that throughtout all of SW, everyone who would know of the clones would keep mum about it so well.

 

I don't think they'd have enough funds to finance the production of clone army. To be useful, they'd need many clone cylinders. The number Thrawn had only worked because of the ysalamiri.

If the cloning facilities existed, then only a select few individuals knew where they were located.

Since Pellaeon never tried to replicate the cloning technology, they must have never got a complete schematic for the cloning cylinders. There was nothing stopping the Empire from making more cloning cylinders and creating more clones with the aide of ysalamiri. I think they didn't know how the cloning tech functioned. Not completely anyway. They just used the tech.