Are Stormtroopers degraded by SW authors and...

I got two questions, well more like your views on two issues, for everyone. I just finished X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble (sp?) and it was a very good book. The first question is about Stormies and the second one is about Imperial Army Troopers and their role in the EU.

First question is, do you think Stormtroopers are degraded by all SW authors or just a few, or none at all? It looks like Timothy Zahn came the closest to giving the Stormies credit, although they were still too easy to kill. I mean, think about: Stormtroopers are the elite of the elite and yet, they die so easily. Do SW authors degrade the Stormtrooper and make him easiler to kill for some reason?


The second question is, on Corcusant (sp?), during Wedge's Gamble, we here about Stormies this and that. What about Imperial Army Troopers? You could save a lot of Stormtrooper man power by replacing about half of them on Imperial Center with Imperial Army Troopers. Do SW authors even know about the Imperial Army Trooper? Are they used fairly in the EU? Only Zahn, to my knoweldge, used Imperial Army Troopers and that was just for one action part.

 

First question is, do you think Stormtroopers are degraded by all SW authors or just a few, or none at all? It looks like Timothy Zahn came the closest to giving the Stormies credit, although they were still too easy to kill. I mean, think about: Stormtroopers are the elite of the elite and yet, they die so easily. Do SW authors degrade the Stormtrooper and make him easiler to kill for some reason?

Right, but think about WHO Stormtoopers fall easy prey to...

... and it certainly wasn't the crew of the Tantive IV.

the issue at hand is, for hte most part, the people we see whupping on the Stormtroopers are the heroes. These are people who have progressed SO FAR beyond the basic training of a Stormtrooper that they SHOULD be able to open a can o' wh00p-butt on them. The other group of people are the sneaky ones -- the scoundrels. and not even they got off scott-free, as was evidenced in DFR.

The normal Rebellion/NR soldiers -- they've been shown to get killed by Stormtroopers. Whereas a trained Jedi Knight, even stripped of all his powers, kills pretty much an entire platoon by himself. Makes sense to me...

EDIT: And "Bravo" to Bravo for random usage of ellipses! Good job... more people should use 'em...

 

Stormtroopers are cannon-fodder characters, unless they're a main character (Davin Felth's tale from the TftMEC, or the story "Trooper" from Star Wars Tales, come to mind). They're easy targets, to put the main characters into some sort of gunfight to simulate "danger" or "peril", but give the characters the chance of getting out alive.

And besides, the films show them as pretty much cannon-fodder. They DO shoot some characters on occasion, and DO put down other cannon-fodder characters (Rebel troopers, for example), but other than that, they go down pretty easily. It's not really the EU making them out to be "less" than they are so much as it is the EU staying true to what the original trilogy of films pretty much established.

 

Important thing to remember, is that in SotME we're told not all Stormtroopers were the 'best' - levels of ability and skill changed as you went up the ladder, so the Stormtroopers commanded by Moffs or even Grand Admirals aren't as good as those used by Palpatine and Vader. According to that theory, it's possible Palpatine and Vader took the best of the Stormtroopers with them on the Executor, and that Grand Admirals (such as Thrawn) snatched the remainder? Thus, post-Thrawn, the best would be gone?

 

There are 2 answers to the first question:
the film reason and the GFFA reason.

The Film Reason: Lucas knew that to get a good rating to allow the younger audience to see his movie, his war movie could not be bloody or overly violent...by covering the bad guy in armor, you get around blood and gore. They can massacre hundreds and it doesn't matter because you can objectify them instead of seeing them as lost human lives. Same thing with Battle Droids and Clone troopers and pretty much any violent cartoon or action movie that is designed for a younger teen audience.

The GFFA reason: The reality is that when we first meet Stormtroopers, they are tough, mean, and intimidating. You look at them and go "Wow, who could beat them...and then their boss...no way anyone could beat vader" now...for us to believe our heros ever have a prayer of winning, they have to at least take out the stormtroopers...which our heros do, in a variety of ways. This makes Luke's shot at Vader more plausible. So Stormtroopers, so formidable at first, are now common place Imperial drones to be cut through as our hero proceeds to the villian. This is also evident in the NJO...remember how INSANELY hard the Vong troopers were to beat in Vector Prime and the early books...look now...our heros can fairly handely dispatch a squad, where early in the NJO they would run for the hills...for heros to be heros, they have to overcome the henchmen.

As for the second question, also two answers:
Anderson's reasons and GFFA reason

Anderson reason: To make the insertion to Coruscant more dramatic, you have to have Imperial center crawling with Stormtroopers. Why? Because we always see them fight Stormies...you can count on one hand the battles were regulars were used...they are nothing...conscripts...Stormtroopers make the danger level rise for WG.

GFFA reason: Coruscant, Imperial Center, is the centerpiece of what was left of the greater Empire under Isard...it is certain that the capitol was already receiving a greater portion of the best troops even before the Emperor's death...With Isard paranoid about defending the planet, she would want to put a Stormy on the corner of every street of the Planet.

 

If anything, SW authors upgrade Stormies. In the movies we see them as cannon fodder, wheras in the books we are constantly told how elite they are, how they are the best of the best.

 

yes, but in the movies, we are told that only imperial troops are so precise (in regards to hitting a sandcrawler)

i'd say stormtroopers are treated evenly between the movies and the books.

the only issue that i would raise from the EU is question of internal loyalty. would troopers see themselves and their comrades as expendable, and treat each other as expendable? would they stick out for each other? or would the chance for promotion sometimes cloud them into even 'accidentally' shooting their comrades while in battle?

 

the only issue that i would raise from the EU is question of internal loyalty. would troopers see themselves and their comrades as expendable, and treat each other as expendable? would they stick out for each other? or would the chance for promotion sometimes cloud them into even 'accidentally' shooting their comrades while in battle?

Both Stormtroopers and Clonetroopers, from an RPG standpoint, were immune to Bribery or Intimidation -- so I'd have to go with "No -- they'd think of the team first and personal performance second."

Although, the same CANNOT be applied to other Imperial officers...

 

would stormtroopers have an unwritten 'leave no man behind' policy?

i can see the emperor not really wanting that... rather allegiance to him and not to the military.

You wonder with helmets like that (restricted visibility) if a lot of friendly fire accidents happen?

[image=http://www.decipher.com/starwars/cardlists/premiere/light/images/friendlyfire.gif]
"Stormtroopers never let accuracy get in the way of victory"

 

I remember Corran getting badly beaten by Stormies, several times... once so badly he almost died. So, the X-Wing series certainly didn't "dumb down" Stormies.

 

This is also evident in the NJO...remember how INSANELY hard the Vong troopers were to beat in Vector Prime and the early books...look now...our heros can fairly handely dispatch a squad, where early in the NJO they would run for the hills...for heros to be heros, they have to overcome the henchmen.

I agree with this. The Yuuzhan Vong were hard to defeat, now they are easy. This could go with Stormtroopers, although, Stormtroopers, unlike the Yuuzhan Vong, have the ability to think clearly in combat. Yuuzhan Vong win with force and never surrendering. Stormies do retreat (sp?) and surrendeer when it is tactical to do so.




Stormtroopers are cannon-fodder characters, unless they're a main character (Davin Felth's tale from the TftMEC, or the story "Trooper" from Star Wars Tales, come to mind). They're easy targets, to put the main characters into some sort of gunfight to simulate "danger" or "peril", but give the characters the chance of getting out alive.

This makes sense, but it also brings out the fact that Stormies are just used as pointless, mindless characters. It would be nice for once if an author did a pro-Galactic Empire book for once, so we get to see how "good" Stormies do in battle. And one has to realize, Stormtrooper training is not easy and is one of the hardest things to do in the GFFA. So one would think that Stormies would last longer in combat then even a "good" Rebel Soldier.




...Stormtroopers make the danger level rise for WG

First, what is the WG? And, that statement is true. Whenever I read about Stormtroopers, my blood gets going faster because I know Stormies are good, very good. The Yuuzhan Vong Warriors don't do that, since they so easy to kill. It might be that Star Wars feeling with Stormtroopers. Stormtroopers are the Galactic Empire...they are what evil comes from in the GFFA...they are fear and terror all wrapped into one.




I remember Corran getting badly beaten by Stormies, several times... once so badly he almost died. So, the X-Wing series certainly didn't "dumb down" Stormies.

I disagree. In X-Wing: Rouge Squadron, a handful of pilots, about 6 or 8, defeated what remained of a Storm Commando unit, about, I think, 12 or 16 troops. Storm Commandos are better trained then regular Stormtroopers and they got the crap beat out of them. I would ahve liked at least two or three more pilots getting injuired or killed.

In X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble, a Stormtrooper got bribbed (sp?). I thought you couldn't bribe (sp?) a Stormtrooper.

About the X-Wing books, I like how Stackpole has given Stormies more credit to their name and how he had two Imperial Star Destroyers last a okay amount of time against a whole New Republic battle fleet.

 

I think that they are, much like TIE fighters are. I think that Stackpole and Dennings are the only authors that have given them full credit at soldiers.

 

About the Vong being all but invincible in the early books, but cannon fodder in the later ones, it's just that the NR learned the tactics necessary to defeat the Vong in combat. Same with the coralskippers. Remember how Kyp's Dozen got raped in their first coralskipper fight? They didn't know what they were up against. But now that the NR has had lots of experience with skips, they know what they have to do to beat them.

 

You wonder with helmets like that (restricted visibility) if a lot of friendly fire accidents happen?

Luke had problems cause a) hewasn'texactly built forthat suit and b) hewas wearing a standard helmet. A stormtrooper helmet on the battlefield actually enhances the troopers vision. It has advanced visiual enhancement equipment inside. Itgives the tropera 360 degree view of the battlefield should he s desire. He can magnify thigs and scan em. H has Ifrared Red vision and night vision. He even hasa built in targetng compter tat tells him when his weapon is alligned with his target. The battleield issue stormtrooper helmet is actually a pretty nifty piece of equipment. Read Pax Empirica.

 

What is "Pax Empirica"?

This makes sense, but it also brings out the fact that Stormies are just used as pointless, mindless characters. It would be nice for once if an author did a pro-Galactic Empire book for once, so we get to see how "good" Stormies do in battle. And one has to realize, Stormtrooper training is not easy and is one of the hardest things to do in the GFFA. So one would think that Stormies would last longer in combat then even a "good" Rebel Soldier.

Well.. we do see how "good" stormtroopers perform, in the two sources I listed. We also see it in the game 'Force Commander'.

Rebel soldiers might last longer because they know guerilla tactics. I dunno if Stormtroopers are trained for things like that.

 

I think that it depends on the author, really. The Zahn novels all do a very good job of impressing upon the reader that Imperial stormtroopers are the Empire's finest frontline combat troops.

And then there's the X-Wing series...
But the X-Wing books in general seemed to fall victim to "Incompetant-Imperial-itis". I swear, it was like there wasn't a single decent Imperial fighter pilot, trooper, soldier, flag officer, or ship's captain in the entire series until Starfighters of Adumar.

But hey, that's just me.

Returning to the subject of stormtroopers in the books, it's almost like the collective authors can't make up their minds. We're told repeatedly that they're extremely good at their job. They're highly dedicated, superbly trained, et cetera. And then a group of unarmed and unarmored sleeping pilots takes out fifteen of their more skilled troopers.

 

Hey Bravo, long time no see. Any cool teachers this year?

Ok, on to the questions at hand.

First question is, do you think Stormtroopers are degraded by all SW authors or just a few, or none at all? It looks like Timothy Zahn came the closest to giving the Stormies credit, although they were still too easy to kill. I mean, think about: Stormtroopers are the elite of the elite and yet, they die so easily. Do SW authors degrade the Stormtrooper and make him easiler to kill for some reason?

I think the authors are just following the example set by the movies. When we first see them in ANH, stormtroopers are able to hit their targets with little difficulty. By the same token, however, their targets are able to hit them as well.

Yet later in ANH we see them try to shoot Han in docking bay 91 and non of their shots come close while Han's wild shooting fails to hit any of them yet does hit material above and behind them causing it to explode and take at least two out doing this. Here we could say Han is essentially covered by the Falcon, yet he is at the bottom of the boarding ramp and an easy target for troops who's blast marks on a sandcrawler are said to be highly accurate.

The next time we see stormtroopers not look so elite is during the boarding and search of the Falcon on the Death Star. However, here we must ignore them being elite troops failing to look so as they are taken by surprise and probably never got a chance to get a shot off.

But it was really during the detetion bay and Death Star chase scenes where stormtroopers appear not to be that elite a force. Time and again they are unable to hit their targets, getting just lucky enough to get their shots close to make said targets jerk back a little. But never once do they appear to be that frightful.

The same pattern happens in ESB and in RoTJ. Only one scout trooper got lucky enough to hit a major target, and that seemed more like a scratch than a major wound. Yet when the targets were minor, the chance of hitting them increased greatly.

So what's the difference between major and minor targets. Major targets are main characters and heros at that. Stormtroopers, no matter what type they are, seem to get lucky when they can hit a major target, and extremely lucky if they inflict a serious injury in such a major target. Minor targets can be hero characters, but their pretty much there as cannon fodder. Kinda like the old saying that the red shirts on Star Trek were always the ones to die. Unless their a major character, their not going to be as likly to survive an encounter with stormtroopers.

And that seems to be the case with stormies in the books. They get lucky when they manage to hit a major character, but otherwise they look like they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn when attacking these characters. Where as with minor characters their going to be more likely to take them out.

The second question is, on Corcusant (sp?), during Wedge's Gamble, we here about Stormies this and that. What about Imperial Army Troopers? You could save a lot of Stormtrooper man power by replacing about half of them on Imperial Center with Imperial Army Troopers. Do SW authors even know about the Imperial Army Trooper? Are they used fairly in the EU? Only Zahn, to my knoweldge, used Imperial Army Troopers and that was just for one action part.

And how many Imperial Army Troopers do we actually see in the movies? Again, it seems the authors are taking a cue from the movies. Stormtroopers are the most heavily used there so they become the most heavily used in the EU.

 

The only Imperial Army soldiers that I can think of seeing in the movie(s) are General Veers the AT-ST drivers on Endor, and a handful of Army troops standing in formation when Vader/Palpatine arrive at the Death Star.

 

I am almost Stormtrooper bugged out, I am in the middle of Stormtrooper: clone or not. I'll try to reply ASAP.

Knight1192, doing good! You? I got some pretty cool teachers this year. Last year I had the best World History teacher and this year I had one of the best Poly Encon teachers. Both are in the social studies field.

 

Stormtroopers are the US equilvant of marines. Imperial Commandoes are their finest troops, though few and far inbetween.

 

handful of Army troops standing in formation when Vader/Palpatine arrive at the Death Star.

Those are Naval Troopers iirc.

 

No, not the bubbas in the black uniforms--Naval infantrymen they are. There's a contingent or two of grey-clad Army types in there next to the stormtrooper scouts.

 

Hmm Interesting. Can youfind me a picture?

 

To be sure, the RPG's have greatly downplayed how Storm Troopers operate, but why not? They got beat by Ewoks!!!