Are The Big Three Dragging Down The Star Wars Franchise?

It'd probably be just before the reboot.

 

Sorry but Star Wars just cant reboot, it defies everything about the universe.

They have to work with their big-screwups. It forces the authors to man-up to their mistakes but unfortunately they have yet to do this. Either A)they create a giant blank spot in the timeline to fill with Big 3 stories, while continuing on, B) Insert new material in previous era, or C) my least favorite, retcon...RETCON RETCON RETCON! Just ignore the darn canon and do what you want just like TCW! (Please do not do this, please dont!)

The point is, we are running out of time. The writers need to tidy the Big 3's affairs into order, and cast them into the sunset. We dont want to morph the icons into the characters who just wouldn't die.

 

It might if/when they decide to do a CGI Han, Leia, and Luke series.

 

I doubt it....the clone wars has at least 3 more years left, but i dont think GL has been interested in a post ROTJ era that much

 

Here is a post I posted on the TOR forums. Beware I am very anti post-njo EU.

They should have ended the Big Three after NJO, everything after is just dragging them through the mud and ruining their characterizations and legacy, especially Luke.

I call what happened to Luke the Denning Effect, or This Isn?t the Luke You?re Looking For. Honestly he ruined the character be deciding to make him dark and edgy despite the movie painting him as compassionate and confident. I mean remember the time Luke sat on his *** and whined after his aunt and uncle?s death, similar to how he coped with Mara?s death in LotF? Or how about when he gave into his anger and hate and struck down Vader just as he did to Lumiya (heck he actually saves her so he can kill her himself)? Or how about how Luke carelessly throws aside the lives of people just as he did to the mandos? Nope I don?t either. Luke rejected the dark side in RotJ (?I am a Jedi; like my father before me.?) sure he can have trouble with the dark side occasionally but he should never give in to it like he did throughout most of LotF. Yep, Denning destroyed the character of Luke.

Also the stories sucked? LotF was just a crappier version of the prequels which didn?t have the pay off of the OT.Heck the Jedi Order was so ineffective/stupid during LotF, that had it been the council during the clone wars Palpatine could have walked into the middle of a Council meeting in full Sith Robes, take out his lightsaber, shoot lightning, declare himself a Sith Lord, and kill a council member and the council would debate for two books whether he was a sith and likely come to the conclusion that he was not. Heck I wouldn?t be surprised If Kyp says they should make him a Jedi and appoint him to the council to take the opening of the Jedi Palps just killed? Also there is the fact that LotF was shamelessly retconing the far superior NJO. Yep let?s throw out the entire point of NJO, making the Jedi view the force in a different more holistic way. And why did they have to make Vergere a sith! Which brings me to my next point, the return of the Sith? Stupid idea in light of the Chosen One?s prophecy. The ?Sith? of LotF can be considered to not be sith at all but rather Dark Jedi, but the Lost Tribe of the Sith no such luck. I mean it is kind of hard to bring balance to the force when there is an entire world full of them hiding out there! Legacy of course brings this problem to the fore front as well, I mean they could have gone done the route that Anakin brought balance to the force by toppling the political power of the sith for ever? But thankfully Legacy stopped that way of thinking! Yay the Sith rule the galaxy again!

Which bring me to Legacy. It is a good story, albeit a cheep and crappier version of the OT, but it craps on the Legacy of all the characters before it. After all it?s nice to know that the big three brought, at most, a couple decades of peace while the Old Republic had near 1000 years of peace? Lame. And I already mentioned what they did to Anakin?s legacy. Really they could have set this farther off in the future like 300 ABY, and I would be far more accepting of it, or they could have even set it during the New Sith Wars. Sure Cade could no longer be a Skywalker but he is a disgrace to the lineage, so I say good riddance!

So what am I saying? I am saying (almost) everything after TUF is crap. NJO served as the perfect end for SW a third trilogy in a way. And SW really should have ended here. Now I am not saying there should be nothing post-NJO, but there shouldn?t be any more Galactic threats, at least for a couple hundred years. What should have been done is simple. Post-NJO books should have focused on stuff at a smaller scale, like planetary rather than galactic. Also they should not just focus on Luke, actually the less on Luke the better (although he could appear in many to give advice like Yoda), but focus on other Jedi, such as Kyp, Kyle, and Corran similar in a fashion to Crosscurrent. My favorite idea would have been to have Dark Horse create a counting ser

 

Denning likes to make everything dark and edgy. But I distinctly remember reading the Dark Nest books and Luke's advocacy of torture. In a way, it's the McCain effect as well: Luke going from torture victim (What part of Force lightning isn't torture?) to torture advocate, as the politics require.

Moving on. I don't know about dragging down, but the Big Three are the sole reason we don't have the Solo brothers anymore. Can't have the younger generation saving the day. Never mind that Jaina's now older than the Big Three were in ANH.

 

DarthIktomi : Denning likes to make everything dark and edgy. But I distinctly remember reading the Dark Nest books and Luke's advocacy of torture.

Well, Luke didn't exactly "advocate" torture. Unfortunately, he DID allow Cilghal to sort of torture the Jedi Joiners to gain information in The Joiner King. Definitely wrong, but not the same as "advocating" it. Luke also quickly came to the conclusion that what he and the other Jedi were doing in TJK was very wrong, and he did *advocate* for going back to the traditional Jedi way.

But you're right: Denning does tend to make everything "dark and edgy". Too much so, in my opinion.

 

Exactly! It's really a shame we didnt get something like this

And smaller scale planetary threats (rather than the galaxy ending threat of the week, i.e. Jacen's vision of the galaxy ending in Betrayal, then Abeloth being whatever she is, ancient, etc) would easily allow the writers to develop other Jedi as well, along with not having to kill the Big 3 at a young (relatively speaking) age.

They could have easily had a post-NJO series, with each book highlighting a mission that a Master/Apprentice go on. Book 1 could be Coran with his apprentice on one planet. Book 2 with Kyp, Book 3 Kyle, etc. Have Luke leading the reconstruction on Coruscant, but his Jedi out in the galaxy doing good, while also training the next generation.

The way it looks now, Kyp and Kyle have never had an actual apprentice it seems. Yet they are always name dropped when the council is mentioned. Let us see why they actually deserve to be on the council

 

Well, Luke didn't exactly "advocate" torture. Unfortunately, he DID allow Cilghal to sort of torture the Jedi Joiners to gain information in The Joiner King. Definitely wrong, but not the same as "advocating" it. Luke also quickly came to the conclusion that what he and the other Jedi were doing in TJK was very wrong, and he did *advocate* for going back to the traditional Jedi way.

Yeah, but what I don't get is why Cilghal did it. "First, do no harm" has a place in the Star Wars universe as well, and it's canon, although I'm sure they swear by different gods, and I'm not sure their oath's views on abortion, euthanasia, and surgery.

But you're right: Denning does tend to make everything "dark and edgy". Too much so, in my opinion.

Yeah, there's a difference between having heroes do bad things occasionally and having villains who aren't complete monsters (as Traviss and Zahn do) and what Denning does.

 

the best one to get rid of fight now would be han. he is pretty useless now as a character. i would wait at least 10 years thoughy for allana to grow up

 

Eh, I would star her introduction at age 13, trainee secondary stories/sub-plots. Flesh out a cast of characters around her.

I would like to see her train not as a Jedi (after all, have we not seen that many times) but as a Jensaraai (a force tradition with some familiarity) and spend time amongst the Singing Mountain Clan style of force traditions. And also some Matukai lessons.


This is primarily to

?
Give her character a unique feel/ visual, Armor + Nexu mask. Maybe a something like what Revan wore but with a nexu face. Think like Ichigo?s Hollow mask.

? Expand fan knowledge of force cultures through character, that character guides us ?The reader? as she is guided through these experiences.

? This also gives her a rich back ground of masters, friends, allies, rivals and enemies to draw on.

? This allows us the finally realize the promise that was dropped when Jacen?s character was derailed. And see these force cultures in depth. Not like what we got in ?Fate of the Jedi: Exile?


This will also Give Leia her guardian some much needed development. After all what has she been doing of late.

Not to mention Dathomiri type force Traditions seem to be tailored to those with close ties to Nature and animals.

 

it seems likely she might end up training as an imperial jedi.

 

I have no idea what is gonna happen to Allana, but in Legacy, the Hapans never show up so Allana becoming an Imperial Knight makes some sense.

Now in regards to the original question, I would say that Han and Leia have become worthless. Han is over 70 and still seems to be able to do things like in his 30s which makes no sense at all since he doesn't have the force and is helping raising Allana with Leia who doesn't really do anything except spend time with Han and attempt to help other people when in my opinion, they should just try to care for Allana. Also when Han and Leia show up, they are the most boring parts of the books in my opinion since they don't usually do anything and I don't care about their conversations anymore. I just wish that they would show up in cameos instead of being featured in books or just kill them off and get it over with and let Luke or Jaina raise Allana. Also, I don't care that Pellaeon was in a space battle over 90.

I still like Luke and like his role in FOTJ with the only people who I care about right now being Luke, Ben, Vestara, and the rest of the Tribe when they show up. In my opinion, the best thing to happen to Star Wars was Legacy since it is going to force writers to match up with it and it means that the Big Three will eventually be gone so they will be forced to make young characters carry the mantle, hopefully. The only problem with Legacy is now writers are probably going to do every single year of the Big Three's remaining lives until the Big Three are done just to get as much money as possible and not having to match up with Legacy so soon even though everyone knows that Jagged Fel is the first emperor. I have a bad feeling that those books about the Big Three are going to last a long time.

 

70 soemthing is not that old in-universe. he just needs to die because he is the least interesting character these days

 

For the most part, this.

I think the end of the NJO series should have marked the "transition" point from where the newer generation take over, as well as marking the end of any "galaxy-wide" conflicts for the time being.

Instead, they seem to have gone completely the other way. Not only are galaxy wide conflicts the "in" thing, but the new characters are either dead, or have been pushed so far into the background they're basically no more than the Star Trek equivalent of Redshirts.

I like Luke, Han, and Leia. I like reading stories about them. But not all the time, not at their age now, and not as the central focus of all conflicts.

 

I only just got into the EU. Was always a huge Star Wars fan, but curiously never bothered with the literature. I just happened to notice a Darth Bane book in Waterstones and was intrigued, bought it and then started reading the EU in chronological order.

I'm up to the Han Solo Trilogy now...that's just to give a bit of background as I've not actually read the stories you're all talking about.

However, I would say that the problem Star Wars has goes beyond 3 characters..it's a fundamental problem with taking an Epic but tightly constructed story (the original trilogy) and then expanding it AT ALL. It's moved from a mythological, cohesive story with an identifiable theme with a happy ending to a full blown chronological biography of numerous characters, plus a full scale political discussion of the galaxy.

Essentially real-life has impinged on the fantasy world. It's gone from good vs evil to a grey area where the Dark side and the Light side are almost inseparable and just about balance and almost every story you can tell involving a force user is necessarily based around the same conflict.

The Christ like Jedi have gradually become fallible and vulnerable figures with a mere genetic advantage. All the evil characters appear to merely have suffered an unfortunate upbringing. Basically all the struggles and sacrifices any of the characters make are pointless because the central nature of the story dictates that there has to be a balance so the Dark will always come back...and in a chronological time-frame we can't end on a perfect moment in time that lasts forever, we have to see everyone fade and suffer.

That sounds more negative than I really intend because I've absolutely loved reading the prequel era stories, particularly the Karen Traviss stuff which I've noticed isn't exactly universally popular here. ..but to me you've got a core problem that the entire Star Wars Eu is telling one story...one cohesive whole story that's probably the biggest of all time...but because it's chronological it can never end properly in the way that the original movies did...IE Love/Compassion and belieivng in somethihing bigger than yourself will conquer all. What's the message of the expanded universe?

We're left with a mirror of the real Universe where everything is in constant turmoil and nothing you do has any particular significance because it's all going to turn to **** at some point, whatever side you're on. The Dark side can't impose Order on the Chaos and the Light Side will never win because people are **** ups.

 

Well pure black/white stories limit development characters confom to a very rigid set of ideas and archatypes. The problem with this is authors write what they know. No series can stick to that format and expect to survive very long.

Simply put, black and white can't exist for long even in fiction even Heraclese/Hurculese couldn't stick to that in the golden age of Greek lit.

And Lucas has done more to make the Jedi like Marvels mutants/ Naruto's ninja's than any other Star Wars contributor. But He has probably been influenced by such media, and thats how worlds grow, it not wrong it's just nature.

 

Oh, I agree with you.

I'm merely highlighting the problem. The initial discussion was about the Big 3, but they are essentialy a microcosm of the problem the whole saga faces.

 

I can't give a straight Yes or No answer.

It very much depends on how they're written. If they're written by the likes of Stover, Zahn and Denning, but not in a round-robin series of 6, 9 or 19 books with other authors, I wouldn't mind reading even more about them. LSatSoM by Stover or TG by Denning are prime examples of excellent EU books about Luke, Han and Leia that definitely do not "drag down the franchise".

(As Stan Lee said - "There are no bad characters, only bad writers".)

And I think that when they are well written and get meaningful adventures instead of being shoehorned in a story, they remain the main EU magnet for old and new readers alike - but best between 10 BBY and 40 ABY. If TPTB want to bridge the gap with the Legacy comics, the Big 3 should definitely fade progressively to the backgroung and at some point down the timeline just be mentioned and remembered by other characters (or at the most, for Luke and Leia, appear as Force-ghosts). The "As XXXX had said/done in a similar situation"-type of referencing, but even that shoudn't be excessive.

I do enjoy very much some of the books without them like Cloak of Deception, ROTS, Shatterpoint and the X-Wing series (where they are reduced to cameos) and all Ostrander/Duursema comics, but i need my Big 3 shot every now and then. Sadly, the quality of these shots varies greatly between the various dealers - especially when several of them mix the substances.

 

I'd bet two cents that if you have a hot chick with a lightsaber on the cover, slap the label Star Wars on top, and give it corny title like "Dark Forebodings" it sells. With or without the big three.

 

And you think that online reviews and ratings, like here or on Amazon to give just two examples of the internet word of mouth, wouldn't influence the sales levels?

The Literature EU buyers community is not that big of a target group (and is generally checking internet reactions to new titles IMO) to risk alienating them with giving the impression that DR and DHC don't mind selling crap and make no big efforts to find and keep good authors.

I know I haven't bought quite a few novels due to the generally negative or even just lukewarm reactions to them. Don't think the publishers want bad press and fewer sales.

 

One problem I see is the decision that Luke Skywalker needs to be about an order of magnitude more powerful than any other Force-user in the galaxy. See Inferno for a pair of particularly egregious examples right on top of one another, where he first outflies Jaina by a huge margin and then proceeds to effortlessly beat the crap out of Caedus. The Jaina part I find particularly irksome, as the extent of Jaina's characterization in much of the recent EU is "the Solo kid who's really good with an X-wing". I can understand making Luke the most powerful Jedi, I guess, but does he have to be better than everyone at everything?

(Yes, I know Luke has fans who will answer, "YES!!!!1111111eleventyone")

The result of Luke walking around with God Mode turned on all the time is that Del Rey has four options:

1. Have Luke instantly defeat any enemy, killing the plot before it begins.

2. Don't have Luke in the books.

3. Have Luke in the books, but portray him as an utter moron. He could defeat the villains easily...if he noticed things that anybody with an IQ above fifty would have picked up on in the first chapter, and about which the reader has been screaming to him for the entire book. As it is, the villains pose a challenge to him despite his nigh-omnipotent command of the Force because they are so much smarter than he is that comparison defies analogy.

4. Have Luke in the books, but portray him as an equivocating wimp. He spends half his time whining about the Dark Side to anyone who will listen (which is pretty much everyone, since the Jedi near-universally respect Luke and look to him for leadership for reasons that are never fully explained to the reader) and the other half of the time sitting around alone with his thumbs rammed so far up his rear end that his stomach acid dissolves his thumbnails.

I'm sure you've noticed that Del Rey has for the most part picked a combination of (3) and (4). NJO tended toward (4) with a refreshing dose of (2) during Traitor and a spurt of (1) right at the end where Luke killed Shimrra in about half a paragraph. LotF at first leaned toward (3), with the caveat that Jacen was also a complete idiot. There was a a brief segment of (1) mid-series (see the beginning of this post) that quickly gave way to (4) so that the plot might be prolonged another three books. I haven't read FotJ, so I can't comment on it.