Are the Clone Troopers slaves?

I gave you two examples (Zey & Vos) and you gave me two as well (Obi-Wan and Yoda). Provide me with more and I'll concede the point.

 

Okay:

Luminara Unduli, Aayla Secura, K'Khruk, Barriss Offee, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto...need I go on?

 

Add Plo Koon to the list... his lines to the clones in the Malevolence episodes of TCW are pretty clear. Something along the lines of "your life matters more to me than finding that ship". Basically, all the lines and actions of Jedi we see towards the clones in the movies and in TCW are very positive.

 

And K'Khruk, too. He nearly left the Order over having to lead clones to their deaths, but managed to reconcile that with his duty.

 

Okay I'll concede the point that most Jedi did treat the clones with respect, but I still maintain the the Jedi were wrong overall to use a slave army. Even if they treated the clones nicely, slavery is still slavery.

 

There, I somewhat agree with you-but I've already illustrated that the Jedi were in a lose-lose situation; agree to lead the Clone Army, and they eventually get Order 66'ed, or refuse to lead the army, be villified as traitors, and get order 66'ed anyway after Palpatine is done "subduing" the Separatists, and additionally suffer a major schism between the Jedi who thought they should fight against the CIS and the Jedi who remained loyal to the Council. Realistically and legally, they're duty-bound to fight; they've long since agreed to put the noose of answering to the Senate and by extension the Supreme Chancellor around their necks, and as the Senate and SC ordered them to become Generals, they didn't have much say in the matter.



They'd already lost the war at the battle of Naboo; they just didn't realize it until it was much too late.

I could go on to point out that the Jedi are hardly free due to the nature of their mandate to serve the Senate and the fact that they're trained from birth and therefore are very unlikely to consider doing other things, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

I disagree. By refusing to fight the Jedi would have a) not thrown away their morals, b) been able to better defend themselves since they aren't spread out across the galaxy and c) investigate this clone army which magically appeared right when it was needed. Order 66 only comes into the equation with the benefit of hindsight and has no effect on the Jedis' decision making at the time. In addition, Jedi morals should not be sacrificed just because it will make them look bad to the public. If the Jedi were screwed either way, wouldn't these actions make more sense than simply going with the flow and ignoring the creation and use of the Clone Army?

Didn't that happen anyway in one of the Republic comics? The one where Mace went to visit Sora Bluq?

They could have always refused. They had no problems subverting the law to go on a secret mission to Naboo and they also had no problem skipping Senate approval when it came time to remove Palpatine from office.

I agree.

The mandate to serve the Senate was of their own choice so I can't feel bad for that. I do regret however that the Jedi are indoctrinated at an early age and never know of any other life.

 

The Jedi never had a mandate to serve the Senate. Their ultimate duty is to the Force, itself, and thus to the safety and peaceful intent of the galaxy as a whole. In order to maximize their protection of the galaxy, it is in their best interests to align their measures with that of the idea of the Republic. Still, they are not aligned with any government, but an idea that is supposed to permeate every government.

As for the "indoctrination," I believe this is a misused term. And would you prefer a bunch of half-crazed, Force-sensitive kids with voices in their heads running around the galaxy?

 

I disagree. By refusing to fight the Jedi would have a) not thrown away their morals, b) been able to better defend themselves since they aren't spread out across the galaxy and c) investigate this clone army which magically appeared right when it was needed. Order 66 only comes into the equation with the benefit of hindsight and has no effect on the Jedis' decision making at the time. In addition, Jedi morals should not be sacrificed just because it will make them look bad to the public. If the Jedi were screwed either way, wouldn't these actions make more sense than simply going with the flow and ignoring the creation and use of the Clone Army?


Who says they would have gotten anywhere with finding out who Sidious was if they hadn't fought? They've had ten years previously with no war and they don't even know he exists. It's not a matter of "looking good to the public"; it's a matter that Palpatine could have easily had them declared traitors for *not* defending the Republic and then just dropped the entire army into their laps.

As for "subverting the law with their mission to Naboo"-how? The senate didn't say they couldn't go at all-the Jedi have routinely done missions at the request of the Supreme Chancellor in the past. It's not illegal.

Didn't that happen anyway in one of the Republic comics? The one where Mace went to visit Sora Bulq?

Mace patched up that problem besides Sora.

 

Ever since Russan, they have.

1. No it is not in the best interest of the Jedi to align their principles with that of the Republic, because that would mean they are making their duty to the Force subservient to their duty to the Republic.
2. Yes they Jedi are aligned with the Republic. Otherwise they wouldn't refuse to free slaves based on Tatooine being outside a the Republic's jurisdiction. If they were for the whole galaxy and not a system of government, this would matter to them.

Compared to what? The Jedi training them, one of their students going dark and starting a massive war. Not one untrained Force user has started a galaxy spanning war, only those who were trained by the Jedi and eventually fell have done that. (save Palpatine, who wasn't trained by the Jedi, but the Sith).

We are getting away from the main topic of the thread. I am still waiting for your response to:

Can you give me some examples?

Before they didn't have Dooku to tell them of Sidious' existence. By AOTC they are aware of him and know he is influencing the Senate.

Which wasn't a problem when they decided to bypass the Senate and execute Palpatine. But now you think in this case they'd be worried about what Palpatine thinks? I doubt it. Either way, I find it hard to believe that refusing to fight could have been worse than fighting, abandoning your morals, losing Jedi to the war, then losing even more Jedi to Order 66.

Yes it was. The Supreme Chancellor doesn't command the Jedi, the Senate does. In order to cut through red tape, Valorum bypassed the Senate and sent the Jedi in secret. The Supreme Chancellor does not gain the power to order Jedi around until ROTS, when Palpatine makes it so.

 

Yes it was. The Supreme Chancellor doesn't command the Jedi, the Senate does. In order to cut through red tape, Valorum bypassed the Senate and sent the Jedi in secret. The Supreme Chancellor does not gain the power to order Jedi around until ROTS, when Palpatine makes it so.


Oh, ho ho, wrong again. The Jedi are both stated in the TPM novel and shown in the pre-TPM EU to frequently take direction from the Supreme Chancellor in emergency situations, which Naboo certainly was. Nor do they require Senatorial approval to send Obi-Wan on to Geonosis, nor does anyone on the Trade Federation side even bother bringing up Jedi presence at Naboo-which would certainly be smart for their Senator to do if it was in fact illegal, as their basic plan was to stall any inquiry into an actual invasion-in fact, it would have made sense for Sidious to direct them to bring it up, in order to further discredit Valorum and make it easier to unseat him.

-Other things they do in TPM & AOTC that they don't bother getting Senatorial approval for:

-Returning to Naboo; Yoda and Mace send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on their own authority. There is no question of informing the Senate.

-Assigning Jedi protection to Senator Amidala in AOTC. In fact, they're directly asked to do so by the Chancellor. There is no Senatorial involvement.

-Sending Obi-Wan to Kamino, a de facto foreign nation as it lies outside the galaxy proper and well beyond Republic space. They don't need to ask for permission, nor do they.

-Obi-Wan chases Jango to Geonosis without worrying about whether it's okay or not; he's attempting to arrest an assassin.

The Jedi can clearly do exactly as they please during the prequels in the majority of incidents. Indeed, the only time we see them waiting directly on the Senate is to employ the Clone Army-Yoda clearly waits for the Chancellor to be granted emergency powers before he leaves for Kamino to take delivery of the clones.


Basically, the Jedi appear to have a very broad mandate and aren't shackled solely to Senatorial approval of their actions during times of crisis, which, again, Naboo clearly was.

 

I don't have the novels in front me right now, so I'll check that tomorrow.

It wouldn't be smart to bring up a Jedi presence on Naboo, because then they would have to explain why they destroyed their ship and tried to kill them. The effect of pointing out the illegal Jedi presence would be far outweighed by their attempted murder of ambassadors.

I was pretty sure that following Palpatine's ascension to Chancellor the Senate gave the Jedi permission to go back to Naboo.

That's another situation like Valorum's where Palpatine preferred to just cut through the bureaucratic hoops. He'd rather get her protection now then have the Senate debate while another assassin attacks.

You don't think that these things are illegal? I highly doubt the Senate would have approved of Obi-Wan's actions, thus the Jedi neglected to tell them.

Naboo wasn't considered to be a crisis by the Senate though, considering how they refuse to accept Amidala's claims and instead wanted to conduct an investigation into the validity of her statements. Therefore the Jedi would not have carte blanche to act on Naboo.


Are you going to respond to the other parts of the post?

 

The Separatists were an obvious threat to the galaxy. When the galaxy is threatened, beings die. When beings die, the Force is thrown into darkness. The Jedi needed to uphold their duty to the Force be defending the galaxy from this substantial threat.

The Jedi didn't choose to participate in the war lightly, and they certainly did not do it to look good to the public. Most of the public had never even seen a Jedi and knew next to nothing about the Order. The whole purpose of the Jedi assuming the mantle of warriors was for the cause of peace.

No, they haven't. The Senate is not the Republic.

Like I said, the duty of every Jedi, and the duty of the Order, as a whole, is to the Force. Mantaining the balance of the Force was not an easy task, and it had already fallen out of balance by the time of Anakin Skywalker's birth. Balance, according to George Lucas, implies that the light side possesses greater power than that of the dark, forever reigning supreme over the forces of chaos -- the light side, of course, being the natural method of harnessing the Force, as it serves the will of the Force rather than bending its tendrils to the whim of the user.

Nonetheless, in order to attempt to maintain this balance to the best of their ability, the Jedi Order had to ally themselves with the positive governing body ensuring the safety of the galaxy. That governing body is most exemplified by the ideals of freedom and justice embodied by the Republic. The Jedi were not subservient to the Senate, nor beneath the jurisdiction of the Supreme Chancellor. The Supreme Chancellor could not command the Grand Master of the Jedi Order to do something. But the Jedi found it only logical to be in agreeance with the government whose ideals they respected and sought to uphold.

As for the slave freeing, you're taking that out of context. The Jedi didn't discover Anakin because he wasn't in civilized space, (it's like saying that the UN isn't for world peace just because it couldn't take care of that kid in some undeveloped region of Nigeria) and Qui-Gon was unwilling to free him because that act might have jeopardized his mission.

No, compared to Force-sensitive individuals who could be using their powers for something positive instead of sitting on a street corner somewhere muttering incoherently about the voices in their head. And you're statement is untrue. Look at Jacen Solo.

 

Sure they did. While they may not have been able to prevent them from fighting they could have easily argued for more freedoms and rights for the clones, but they did not.
They certainly did.

Can you give me some examples?

Sure-first off, names instead of numbers, and a general refusal to needlessly sacrifice their lives. Which isn't much, but it's still a whole hell of a lot more than the exact zero the clones got after Order 66.

That, to me, is the dualistic example of just what a tragedy Order 66 is-the clones are killing the only people who ever bothered seeing them as people at all. Before Order 66, the clones were borderline slaves; afterwards, they were the equivalent of droids as far as the Empire was concerned.

The AOTC novel did a fantastic job of the Jedi view on the clones-Obi-Wan is utterly repulsed by even the notion of creating beings to fight and die during his tour of the factory, and is doing all he can to hide it.


As for the illegality of anything the Jedi did in TPM and AOTC: I'm still not convinced. Certainly the Trade Federation knew that the ambassadors were in fact Jedi. If this is somehow illegal-which the TPM novel flat-out says it isn't and states that the Jedi frequently take direction from the Supreme Chancellor in emergency situations, which a corporation blockading a member world certainly is-then why didn't the Trade Federation bring it up during the Senate debates? It would've been an even more useful way to further block inquiry into the situation on Naboo.

As for it somehow being illegal for Obi-Wan to pursue Jango to Geonosis-almost definitely not. First of all, he's wanted for a crime committed on a Republic world, and Jedi are part of the law-enforcement system in the Republic. Second, the Republic probably doesn't recognize the CIS as a legitimate, equal government-to do so would be suicide for the Republic, as they'd be giving legitimacy to the Sep movement, which is the last thing they want to do. In other words, as far as the Republic's laws are probably concerned, CIS worlds are still Republic worlds and Republic laws still apply on them. Even if they do recognize the CIS, Jango is still wanted for a crime committed on Republic soil, and therefore Obi-Wan is within his rights to pursue him.

 

Well said.

 

a) Not the Jedi's doing. As I said before, the clones already have given themselves nicknames even before they met any Jedi.
b) Even if you do think the Jedi did this, I hardly believe giving someone a name is equivalent to giving them rights and freedoms. To use a real life example, many slaves where given their masters names. Doesn't change the fact its still slavery.

Again, not really a big deal, since it would be stupid to waste the limited amount of clones you have. Again to use a real life example, many slavers do as much as possible to minimize fatalities, in order to get maximum efficiency out of their "property". Still doesn't change anything.

It's more than zero, but not enough to mean anything.

The fact that the clones killed the Jedi completely without mercy shows they obviously didn't share your view of how the Jedi treated them.

Yet he and the rest of the Jedi Order buried their feelings and went along with it. Must not have been too repulsed.

1. As I said earlier, they would then have to explain how they killed the pilots, destroyed their ship and attempted to kill the Jedi.
2. Can you give me the page number and exact quote that says what you claim?

a) If they didn't believe the CIS to be a legitimate government then why was the Republic negotiating with them to come back? If the Republic still considers the CIS to be under their jurisdiction, it makes no sense for them to petition for their return. If they never left to form an autonomous nation, they can't return.
b) No Obi-Wan is not within his rights to go into a sovereign nation without authorization and spy. You're telling me that if the Mexican police were chasing a fugitive into the US it would be okay for them to not inform the U.S. and for the hell of it, listen to some secret government conversations while they are there?


[quote=Qui-Gon_Reb

 

a) Not the Jedi's doing. As I said before, the clones already have given themselves nicknames even before they met any Jedi.

But the clones only used these names among themselves. It was the Jedi who were responsible for championing the clones' identity.

The fact that the clones killed the Jedi completely without mercy shows they obviously didn't share your view of how the Jedi treated them.

No, it just shows that, ultimately, the clones were not fully human. Sure, they were biologically human, but not "all there." And many clones refused to execute the order, bound by their love and admiration for the Jedi. They looked upon their commanders as gods; I don't have very many good things to say about the RC books (none at all, actually) but they did illustrate that much.

a) If the Republic still considers the CIS to be under their jurisdiction, it makes no sense for them to petition for their return.

That is not true. During the Civil War, the United States no longer considered the Confederate States to be a legitimate portion of our nation, but continually negotiated for their return to our country.

a) I find it hard to believe the Jedi thought the Force wanted them to fight, considering how most of the PT they commented on how clouded their vision was by the Dark Side.

There was a threat. The Jedi saw that threat as a menace to the safety of the galaxy. They decided to eliminate the threat.

b) The Jedi should have did what they did during the Mandalorian Wars, step aside if you don't believe the cause is just.

And do you remember what happened as a result of their non-interventionist policy? The Sith took over the galaxy.

The situation is sort of comparable to the history of the post-World War II United States. Following the conclusion of the War of 1812, the United States signed the Monroe Doctrine, saying, in essence, that the U.S. was going to mind its own affairs and keep out of the affairs of every other nation, and that all other sovereign entities should do the same. However, following the advent of World War I and the United States' unwillingness to enter the conflict until it was apparent that the world was truly in jeopardy, the country started to take a long, hard look at its foreign policy. They were a bit quicker in their entrance into the second World War, and entered mostly as a source of economic stimulus, but, ever since then, the country has found itself in a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" sort of situation similiar to that of the Jedi.

If the Jedi interfere in a conflict, and things go poorly, as they often do, then it is the Jedi's fault. If they do not interfere, and things go poorly, as they often do, then they are asked why they did not seek to aid their fellow beings. But the Jedi know that in order to serve the Force to the utmost of their ability, they have to seek to preserve life as much as possible. And so, their policy has shifted from one of noninterference to active participation in galactic events, for better or for worse.

Untrue. The Jedi fought to preserve the Republic, not for galatcic peace.

The Republic is for galactic peace; if not for any other reason, it's because it keeps it alive.

The Senate is the governing body of the Republic, so obviously they would answer to them. Who else would they answer to, the janitor?

If you are interested in continuing this discussion, I'd thank you not to patronize your fellow users. They do not answer to the Republic; they act in the interest of the galaxy, and what is good for the galaxy is usually good for the Republic.

Right. The Force. Not a system of government which can and did become corrupted. If the Jedi didn't become inextricably linked to the Republic they could have realized this.

Yes, the Jedi's perception had become clouded with their own arrogance and thoughts of invincibility. However, they are not tied to a government. The Republic is not just some government. It's an idea.

So obviously the

 

What an unreasonable stretch that is... I've never heard anyone suggest before that the clones killed the Jedi out of any kind of resentment, ill will, desire for revenge, etc. What it illustrates is how well they were programmed to follow orders from the Chancellor, in that they executed Order 66 despite the relationships they had formed with the Jedi. These good relationships are clearly shown in the movies (and are being further illustrated now in TCW)... that's what made it all the more heartbreaking, for both sides (as DarthBoba said).

 

But I again point out, using someone's name is hardly comparable to getting them citizenship, voting rights, leave. Calling a slave what he chooses to be called doesn't make him any less of a slave.

What?! How do figure that they're not human? I guess if you don't consider them human, it makes it much easier to rationalize their bondage.

Again, what? Killing the Jedi in no way all of sudden means that they're not "all there".

False. Provide examples, because the only one I can think of is Murkana, which was stated to be the only clones that rebelled.

I have no idea where you are getting this from. I don't remember seeing anything to indicate that the clones thought of the Jedi as deities.

The bolded part is exactly what I wanted to prove, that the Republic no longer considered the CIS a part of their alliance, therefore Obi-Wan entering CIS territory and spying was illegal.

This does nothing to disprove what I said. There is no proof that the Force was willing them to fight.

Eh? The Sith were never in control of the galaxy. Revan killed Malak and the Jedi won. At what point were the Sith controlling the galaxy?

No. The Monroe Doctrine said that if Europe stayed out of the Western Hemisphere and US interests, the US would do the same for them. It never said the US and Europe shouldn't meddle with any other nations ever. Consider how the US went on to purchase Alaska, take Cuba, Panama and the Philippines and Europe colonized Africa. That document had little to with isolationism and more to do with avoiding stepping on anyone's toes.

In jeopardy from what?

I fail to see the analogy between the Jedi and the United States. The US is obligated to do what's in its best interests. The Jedi are supposed to do what that the Force tells them, then the people and last the Republic.

 

Order 66 was not programmed into the clones. No source indicates that. It was a normal, verbal order. And I never said that the clones killed the Jedi out of resentment or revenge, simply that they must not have thought much of them if they had no qualms about killing them. The clones are capable of feeling emotions and none of them felt regrets about wiping out the Jedi.

 

Well, I didn't mean literally "programmed" like a computer or something on a genetic level... but more meant it in a sense of strict training. But it was a contingency order, not a regular one, and unlike even other contingency orders it apparently simply needed to come from the Chancellor without any further verification or agreement from anyone else needed.

 

But I again point out, using someone's name is hardly comparable to getting them citizenship, voting rights, leave. Calling a slave what he chooses to be called doesn't make him any less of a slave.

I said "identity" which implies "individuality" not merely "names."

What?! How do figure that they're not human? I guess if you don't consider them human, it makes it much easier to rationalize their bondage.

You see, this is why I am somewhat inclined to halt this disussion. This emotionally charged tone suggests an inordinate amount of attachment to the subject matter that is impairing the conversation. Anyway, to say that the clones are biologically inhuman is absurd, since they have displayed proficiency in breeding with a genetically unaltered human. However, their genetic modification makes them a strain of human that is not as we "know it," as displayed in their lack of emotional discharge in murdering their beloved commanders, even after they had professed loyalty and devotion to them prior to Order 66.

I have no idea where you are getting this from. I don't remember seeing anything to indicate that the clones thought of the Jedi as deities.

You are taking my words literally. I meant "gods" as in someone they looked up to, which is very apparent in nearly every Clone Wars piece of material there is.

The bolded part is exactly what I wanted to prove, that the Republic no longer considered the CIS a part of their alliance, therefore Obi-Wan entering CIS territory and spying was illegal.

Obi-Wan shouldn't have been sent to CIS territory to gather information that was invaluable to the safety of many lifes, clone, Jedi, and civilian?

This does nothing to disprove what I said. There is no proof that the Force was willing them to fight.

Did it will them not to fight?

Eh? The Sith were never in control of the galaxy. Revan killed Malak and the Jedi won. At what point were the Sith controlling the galaxy?

If you recall, after Revan killed Malak, Revan turned to the dark side once again, the Jedi were purged, and the Sith were placed in control of the galaxy.

That document had little to with isolationism and more to do with avoiding stepping on anyone's toes.

A contradiction.

In jeopardy from what?

Nazis?

I fail to see the analogy between the Jedi and the United States. The US is obligated to do what's in its best interests. The Jedi are supposed to do what that the Force tells them, then the people and last the Republic.

If the United States interferes in another nation's affairs, which it has been doing as a precautionary measure since the world wars to prevent more global conflicts, and the situation is quelled and, consequently, minor, the United States is accused of meddling where it doesn't belong. However, if they do not interfere, and what could have been a minor situation blows up into a conflict of global proportions, then the United States is accused of being passive.

Similiarly, if the Jedi do not step into these galactic conflicts where the will of the Force is unclear, and the Rebublic loses, everyone wonders where they've been. This is typically accompanied by the usual Jedi purge and the Sith killing off some species and demanding tribute. However, if the Jedi do take an active role in a conflict such as the Clone Wars, they are accused of taking over where they do not belong. As a I said, damned if they do, and damned if they do not.

The Republic is for retaining the status quo. The sheer apathy they show at the Naboo invasion (one of their members) demonstrates that peace was hardly one of their top priorities. Your own Lucas quote shows he thought of the Republic as failing and corrupt.

It was failing and corrupt, but the government wasn't build to be self-serving.

Untrue. Many times what the public wants and what the Republic wants is at odds, therefore it is impossible for something to benefit both at the same time.

Does the public want to die? Do

 

Order 66 was not programmed into the clones. No source indicates that. It was a normal, verbal order. And I never said that the clones killed the Jedi out of resentment or revenge, simply that they must not have thought much of them if they had no qualms about killing them. The clones are capable of feeling emotions and none of them felt regrets about wiping out the Jedi.


Because it's an order. They don't feel qualms about blowing away children and BDZing planets for the Empire either; I don't see what your point is, as clones are genetically modified to make them obedient to any order from higher authority. It's got nothing to do with whether or not they can feel emotions; orders come first.

Additionally, you're wrong to begin with about clones not feeling qualms about killing Jedi: it's canon that Commander Bly shot Aayla to give her a quick death. It's also canon that several clones outright disobeyed the order. So, yep, wrong as usual.

 

The light side ending of the video game is the canonical one. Even in the dark side ending, Revan didn't "turn to the dark side once again" AFTER killing Malak. In the dark side ending he was already DS when he fought Malak.

 

Just to point out-we don't know what TOR is going to say on the subject; at best, right now we know Revan left for the UR and was never seen again.