Are the Clone Troopers slaves?

You say this, but then go on to say that several clones disobeyed the order, which must mean they are capable of disobeying orders if they so choose.

As I said to Qui-Gon Reborn, examples? The only one I can think of is Murkana, which was stated to be the only case of clones refusing to comply.

Which still does nothing to change their class as slaves.

I don't think I'm unreasonably attached to the subject matter, I'm just surprised you see the clones as subhuman.

a) I fail to see how showing little emotion when they execute Order 66 means they are subhuman. Just because you expect them to feel remorse doesn't magically change what they are.
b) The clones never professed loyalty to the Jedi. Their loyalty is to the Office of the Supreme Chancellor and the Republic.

If by look up to you mean, respect for their abilities, then yes the clones do look up to the Jedi. Using the word "gods" is very misleading.

Whether he should and whether or not it is allowed by intergalactic law are two separate issues. It would be extremely beneficial for the United States to place spies in government offices across the globe. Whether or not this is legal is a different story.

I don't know, which is the point. The Force is clouded by the Dark Side, which makes it impossible for you to claim that the Force was willing the Jedi to fight, or to know what the Force wants.

Eh? Revan stayed on the light side and went into the Unknown regions to fight the True Sith. He didn't fall after killing Malak.

No its not. Saying "don't screw around in our interests" is not the same as saying endorsing isolationism. Again I point you to the British colonization of Africa and the U.S. acquisition of Alaska, Hawaii, Panama, Cuba and the Philippines. If the Monroe Doctrine is a declaration of isolationism why did these things take place?

I thought we were talking about World War I? There was no National Socialist Workers Party during Worl

 

But canonically on the light side, that's all I'm saying. To assume he fell to the dark side again after that point is speculation. I strongly doubt it.

 

I know, just saying-we don't know what happens yet, so "strongly doubt it" doesn't exactly count as fact.

Just not that big a fan of debating a storyline that isn't finished yet.

 

Oh, I know it could still happen, trust me. I just wouldn't bet on it.

 

There's no time to debate this in committee.

 

Well, POD did say that Revan's story was "complicated"...

 

Maybe Revan & the Dark Side is like Boba and the Sarlaac: Falls in three or four times before he learns his lesson.

 

Which still does nothing to change their class as slaves.

Look, the term "slave" is a highly ambiguous one, and it has never ever been said that the clones were enslaved or that they were not. Therefore, it is not canon, and everything that is not canon is an opinion. So I think that you're not going to change your opinion, and I sure as the nine hells of Corellia am not going to change mine, and that, my friend, is that.

I don't think I'm unreasonably attached to the subject matter, I'm just surprised you see the clones as subhuman.

Alright.

If by look up to you mean, respect for their abilities, then yes the clones do look up to the Jedi. Using the word "gods" is very misleading.

Well, they look up to them so that some even believe that a Jedi can do no wrong.

Eh? Revan stayed on the light side and went into the Unknown regions to fight the True Sith. He didn't fall after killing Malak.

Not according to KOTOR II.

I thought we were talking about World War I? There was no National Socialist Workers Party during World War I.

No, I was talking about the second world war.

The Jedi shouldn't be concerned with whether or not the public damns them. They should do what they think is right regardless of what the public thinks.

They usually do!

Who does the government serve then? The Republic was created to benefit itself as a whole.

A government is designed to serve its people.

What does the Potentium have to do with anything?

Otherwise there wouldn't be all these fallen Jedi running around killing people and utilizing, as you put it "a cancer."

That was not how I put it. That was how Mr. Lucas put it.

You know, what puzzles me is why in the world Jedi are even relevant to a discussion of clones. The clones weren't created by the Jedi, they don't belong to the Jedi, and the Jedi should't have to be held accountable for them.

 

Gah. I don't believe that comic.

 

KotOR II (well, with the canon Revan ending) says exactly what DarthApocalypse said. Revan was redeemed, killed Malak, had visions of the True Sith, left Bastilla and the Republic to defeat them, and hadn't been heard from since. The only Sith Revan we see in the canon KotOR II is the Exile's vision on Korriban, but that was as real as the Vader Luke decapitated.

 

No, its not.

slave?noun 1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

The clones have no rights, and are not considered citizens, but property. They are slaves. What condition of slavery do they not meet?

Republic Commando disagrees with you. You may not like the books, but that's what they say and as far as I know the movies have not contradicted then, thus they are canon.

See above. It is canon.

If you can show me my thinking is flawed I'll gladly change my opinion.

Source? Where does it say the clones consider the Jedi to be infallible?

As Master Starwalker says above it is you who are mistaken. About a great many things.

My mistake then.

Then why did you bring up the fact that the public will damn them either way? If public opinion does not affect Jedi thinking then the notion of the Jedi being vilified either way is irrelevant.

That's what it should do but the Republic is, as I said earlier, corrupted.

That's what I was asking you.

You quoted him so I assumed you agreed with his assessment.

They didn't create them, but one of their own ordered them.

You stated they Jedi are supposed to promote peace and justice among all beings. As I said at the beginning of this debate the fact the Jedi decided to not only use a slave army, but did nothing to improve their situation is a huge black mark on their record and casts doubt on their claim to promote freedom for all beings.

 

slave?noun 1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.

A dictionary definition is absolute?

Republic Commando disagrees with you. You may not like the books, but that's what they say and as far as I know the movies have not contradicted then, thus they are canon.

I never recall the books specifying the fact that they were enslaved, and, even if they did, that is merely the author's point of view. If I wrote a Star Wars book that talked about how wonderful and human the Sith are, and said that they're really just misunderstood and it is the Jedi who are evil, then that would simply be my point of view as an author. Until Lucas comes out and says that the clones were slaves, I cannot believe that.

See above. It is canon.

Well, I hardly regard the RC novels as canon anyway, but that's a different story that I don't care to elaborate on.

Source? Where does it say the clones consider the Jedi to be infallible?

The RC books, I believe. Wasn't Darman thinking about how wonderful Etain was even when she didn't even know the front end of her lightsaber from the back end? This fact is also in direct contradiction with TCW, as Captain Rex certainly does not look as if he considers anyone to be infallible.

As Master Starwalker says above it is you who are mistaken. About a great many things.

I never interpreted that scene in KOTOR II that way, but I see what you're saying. And I sure hope you were joking about the second part.

You quoted him so I assumed you agreed with his assessment.

I don't have much of a choice. It's G-canon.

They didn't create them, but one of their own ordered them.

According to The Essential Guide to the Force, Sifo-Dyas was under the influence of the Sith Lord Count Dooku.

As I said at the beginning of this debate the fact the Jedi decided to not only use a slave army

The army doesn't belong to them!

 

What other definition of slave do you know of? In what way do you consider the definition of slave ambiguous?

It said they had no rights, were considered property and were hunted down and killed if they tried to leave.

Not it's not. Traviss's book establishes the clones as slaves, her books carry the Star Wars label and they are an approved part of the Star Wars continuity, unless Lucas decides to overturn them. If you wrote a book it would be fan fiction, which is not part of the canon, unless LucasBooks decides for that to be changed. Using your reasoning would mean nothing in the EU is canon, but simply the point of view of many different authors.

Fair enough. Not everyone like the sames things, though in a debate you can hardly discount a source just because you don't like it.

Didn't you just say that books are arbitrary and not canon?

Darman assumed Jedi were capable commanders because that's what he was led to believe. That in no way implies that he thought them to be incapable of error.

All clones are supposed to think alike? Never mind the fact Yoda points out that they have distinct auras in the Force and have different experiences?

I guess my attempt to be facetious by using a Palpatine line from ROTJ has failed.

You don't have to agree with everything Lucas says.

I thought you just said books weren't canon, but the point of view of the author?

I didn't say they did. However the Jedi did take up command positions and lead troops, which means they are using the army and associating themselves with them.

 

What other definition of slave do you know of? In what way do you consider the definition of slave ambiguous?

The same way the term "property" is ambiguous.

Using your reasoning would mean nothing in the EU is canon, but simply the point of view of many different authors.

No, the events taking place in the Republic Commando are canon. However, the way those events are interpreted in that story are not. According to Leland Chee, all Star Wars novels are told from an out-of-universe point of view.

Fair enough. Not everyone like the sames things, though in a debate you can hardly discount a source just because you don't like it.

Very true, but like I said above, I am not discounting their continuity. Just the interpretation.

Darman assumed Jedi were capable commanders because that's what he was led to believe. That in no way implies that he thought them to be incapable of error.

It seemed that way.

All clones are supposed to think alike? Never mind the fact Yoda points out that they have distinct auras in the Force and have different experiences?

No, but their genetic patterns make their thought processes markedly similiar.

I guess my attempt to be facetious by using a Palpatine line from ROTJ has failed.

You never know.

You don't have to agree with everything Lucas says.

No, I don't, but it doesn't make it any less canon.

I thought you just said books weren't canon, but the point of view of the author?

This was a fact, not an interpretation of a fact.

I didn't say they did. However the Jedi did take up command positions and lead troops, which means they are using the army and associating themselves with them.

And they should not have?

 

I think we are about too see the first clone traitor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnWxz7E1jIk
A slave rebellion?

 

How so? Property is something that is legally owned by someone else. The clones are not citizens, but are explicitly stated to be the property of the Republic.

Some things in the books are open to interpretation. I fail to see how the clones having no rights, being legally defined as property and being killed if they leave the army leaves any room for doubt. Those are unequivocal statements.

Expect this isn't something that is open to interpretation. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

I fail to see how. Obi-Wan considered Cody to be a very capable commander. That doesn't mean he thinks he is infallible. Same with the clones and the Jedi.

Expect you're leaving out that their experiences will differ dramatically and thus so will their thought processes. Every clone has different trainers, specializes in different areas of combat, serves on different planets, meets different people etc. You're telling me with all this variation the clones are all going to think the same? All you have to do is look at the differences between Omega and Delta Squad to know that's wrong.

I guess my humor skills weren't a total failure then.

While Lucas is the creator, I prefer to come to my own conclusion about what The Saga is saying.

So was my claim about the clones = slaves.

If the AOTC novel is to be believed and they were repulsed at the notion of a clone army, then they should not have led the army.

 

I was just about to mention that. The new Clone Wars episode should add a new layer to this debate.

 

Their distaste is outweighed by their desire to not let the Republic "be split in two", as Palpatine put it.

 

One of the big surprises is that image of Yoda arriving at the Execution Arena with the Clones - and giving orders to them.


Desperate times...desperate measures

 

Well, I have to make a short addendum based upon last night's Clone Wars episode.

Slick mentions that everything he did was for something that none of his brothers would be capable of understanding. Namely, he turned on his own brothers for freedom -- personal freedom. And when he said this, and was carried away by his own brothers, Anakin and Obi-Wan, some of the greatest Jedi in the Order, agreed that he should be punished. Is this wrong? Was this heartless? Was this slavery?

In the modern US army, desertion is a crime punishable by death, something that is not, in any way, permissable. Soliders are to serve for a predetermined term, after which they have completed it, they may leave the army. The clones have only been fighting for three years, and, on the third year, the war is just about over. If the war would have ended in the Republic's favor and Sidious would have been eradicated, the clones most probably would have been given full freedom and citizenship as members of the Republic.

But, in the meantime, the number one priority for everyone -- clones, Jedi, Senators, and the Supreme Chancellor -- should be the war. I understand Slick's desire to be free, but if he had any loyalty, any sense of responsibility, he would have waited until the war was over to profess those desires.

In the same way, the Jedi must place their pain on the clones' behalf aside as they do what is best for the Republic and for the Force -- keeping peace and justice in the only way they can in a galaxy frought with war. Sure, the Force didn't tell them to fight, but it is their duty to save lives, and they are doing their duty. When the war was over, they would have undoubtedly done what was right, and helped those whom they had fought and died with for years.

So, I still do not believe that the clones are slaves, but they are the unfortunate victims of an oversight on the part of the Galactic Republic. Even so, they are just soliders of a different form, soliders who lived and died like any other soliders did and continue to do.

 

Yes, it was wrong. And you are using an appeal to authority fallacy. Saying that because Anakin and Obi-Wan supported these actions means they must be correct is erroneous. I would also advise against using Anakin as the model for Jedi behavior. Otherwise that would imply genocide is also an accepted Jedi practice.

Again, a fallacious comparison for several reasons. a) In the U.S. Army, citizenship is not based on whether you win or lose. You enter as a citizen and leave as a citizen, victory or defeat. You don't get disenfranchised if your mission is unsuccessful. b) The U.S. Army does not indoctrinate children from birth and does not put them into live fire exercises. c) If you're not suitable for service in the U.S. Army, you go home. You don't get executed.

And I am of the opposite mind, that if the Jedi had any sense of humanity, they would have ensured the clones freedom. Saying a war is going on is a horrible excuse, because the Jedi have no way of knowing when the war will end, so it conveniently allows them to put the clones freedom in the back of their minds. I point out that there was no war to constrain them from freeing slaves on the Outer Rim, yet they did nothing.

As I mentioned before, you have no proof that the Jedi were serving the Force by fighting in the Clone Wars. Also as I said before, the Jedi should not have been blindly fighting for the Republic.

This statement is meaningless and is not backed up by anything. Where is your proof that once the war was over that the Jedi would all of a sudden become champions of human rights? I again point you to the examples of slavery on the Outer Rim, which the Jedi were quite content to ignore. They could just as easily do the same with the clones, ignore them.

Nice euphemism, but comparison of clones to real world soldiers is wrong. They are not soldiers, but tools to be used and discarded. If you want, I can go into even more detail why the clones are slaves, but hopefully this post will be sufficent.

The Republic was not worth fighting for.

 

They still thought it was.

 

Yes, it was wrong. And you are using an appeal to authority fallacy.

Really? I sure wish I knew what that meant.

Saying that because Anakin and Obi-Wan supported these actions means they must be correct is erroneous.

I'm not saying that. I am saying that because they did, there must be a reason for this support.

I would also advise against using Anakin as the model for Jedi behavior. Otherwise that would imply genocide is also an accepted Jedi practice.

Advise away.

a) In the U.S. Army, citizenship is not based on whether you win or lose. You enter as a citizen and leave as a citizen, victory or defeat.

If the clones are defeated in a battle, they are treated the same way they would be treated if they lose the battle. Let's face it; they have only been fighting for three years, and the Republic has not, of yet, planned for their future. They would have done so, inevitably, if the war would have lasted longer.

b) The U.S. Army does not indoctrinate children from birth and does not put them into live fire exercises.

But they do indoctrinate their soldiers and strip away their personalities to plant something in them that wasn't there before.

c) If you're not suitable for service in the U.S. Army, you go home. You don't get executed.

That only occurred early on. It was stopped.

And I am of the opposite mind, that if the Jedi had any sense of humanity, they would have ensured the clones freedom.

Once again, the Jedi are not the Republic. They did their best with what they had.

Saying a war is going on is a horrible excuse

So let the Republic crumble?

I point out that there was no war to constrain them from freeing slaves on the Outer Rim, yet they did nothing.

Jedi cannot control everything. Saying that they can go anywhere and save everyone is just not feasible.

Also as I said before, the Jedi should not have been blindly fighting for the Republic.

They did not do so blindly. The Jedi Order put much thought into their decision to assume the role of military commanders, and they knew that continuing to fight for the Republic was better than sitting idly and letting whole worlds crash and burn before them.

This statement is meaningless and is not backed up by anything. Where is your proof that once the war was over that the Jedi would all of a sudden become champions of human rights?

Look at their history. They respect all life. Why wouldn't they champion the clones' rights?

 

Sorry for the delay in the response.

It means your argument consists of saying that just because someone in a position of authority espouses something it must be correct. If the Jedi support an action does not automatically mean that it is right.

Of course there is a reason. If they supported Slick's desertion, it would give the other clones justification to do the same. Of course freedom for the clones is not the concern of the Jedi, so they can't take that position.

I don't see how any of this contradicts what I said. The rights of soldiers should not be dependent on whether or not their mission is successful. In addition, I highly doubt that the Republic would have inevitably given the clones rights, considering that a) most people thought of them as "meat droids" b) they could have easily given the clones rights at any time.

Again, not from birth and toddlers aren't being trained to shoot each other.

What source says that it was stopped?

They supported the Republic and integrated themselves within their military. As such they are part of the Republic, are responsible for the welfare of their troops and should do all they can to acquire rights and privileges for them. Even if they weren't part of the Republic, they are still supposed to secure freedom for all beings.

If it's willing to use slavery to prop itself up, then yes. If its has become a corrupted, decrepit mess, then yes.

So its not feasible for them to eliminate a slavery problem they've known about for years during peacetime? What exactly was so hard about this problem that it couldn't be solved?

Because by the time of the PT, the Jedi no longer follow their own ideals.

What examples are there of the Jedi considering the different options? All I saw was Yoda willingly taking command of the clones and most of the other Jedi following his lead. They didn't bother to examine the origins of the army. The few Jedi that didn't agree left the Order and the Council didn't even consider their opinions.

 

So you conveniently assume.