Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Barkey Foreman, Apr 10, 2014.
Shall we try to avoid this becoming a general OT v PT debate or psychoanalysis of fan preference?
It was fine. But PT focussed on lightsaber duel, especially Ray Park and Dooku's stunt actor did great job. Thats why CT duels are seen as less better.
The OT duels were about motivation and the relationships between the combatants. They weren't about swinging blades around at each other...I'd even go as far as saying they weren't about killing each other- for Luke, Ben, & Vader it was a very personal conflict having more to do with what's in their head than what they're doing with their blade. I thought the duels were very effective and not underrated at all.
If anything I'd say a tad bit overrated given that "geek"/internet culture praises their attributes all the time compared to their PT counterparts. I'm certainly entertained and moved by the OT duels, but nothing there surpasses the choreography of the Duel of the Fates or the raw emotion of the Battle of the Heroes.
Didn't Ray Park do his own stunts? I thought I'd heard that.
"The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet" is the best opening quote/moment of a lightsaber duel so far. The first two strikes and Vader's twirl to open the duel are also cool imo. Vader goading Luke in the first section was great as well.
Also liked Vader ramping up the intensity each with new area.
The Prequel trilogy duels are literally game on from the get-go. It works sometimes but the raising of the tension/stakes as the duel progresses in the OT duels works.
Yes and No.
While they pail in comparison to choreography used in PT, the lightsaber fights in Episode 4/5/6 are shown after the fall of the Grand Republic, in which there was no Jedi order, and the only fights we see are from an old man, a half man / half robot, and an up and coming jedi. Watching the PT fights, you see the Jedi in their prime, and that's why they're so much better. I bet in Episode 7 we continue the more fantastic fights, as Luke will have begun a new Jedi order.
Wonder who will be doing the choreography for the ST? Nick Gillard isn't coming back right?
I hope its not a rehash of the PT. Put it half way between the PT and OT or keep it as fancy as the PT style but make it different from the PT style.
Mark Hamill doing super flips.
The thing I love the most about the Empire duel is how obviously Darth Vader is toying with Luke but becoming more frustrated as the duel goes on.
When Luke actually manages to land a hit, Vader immediately ends the fight. He was in control the entire time.
It's pretty obvious that this thread is an OT v. PT debate. It was either started to become one, or it simply evolved into one, to the detriment of the PT. And this is not surprising, considering how popular bashing that particular trilogy for nearly every single thing has always been a popular sport for years.
Some people do like the OT or parts of the OT better than the PT you know. Doesn't mean they hate the PT. They just like parts of the OT better. Must us OT fans first be bashed for liking something different from the PT fans?
This thread will inevitably involve comparing THE DUELS of the two trilogies , but it needn't become a general OT v PT slugfest. Preferring one trilogy's duels over the others doesn't imply hatred or bashing of any kind.
Which trilogy has the best duels is the best duel.
ESB and ROTJ had some of the best sets ever for the duels in their movies.
I agree. Notice how he starts the duel just using one hand, testing Luke out, then switching to two when he sees that Luke is no pushover.
It's already become one.
Why must everyone agree that one type of lightsaber duels is better than the other? Can't we like whatever duel type we like and not get criticized for liking something different or supposedly bashing the PT when we aren't? Can't we agree to disagree and what not? The OT isn't the be all end all of Star Wars nor is the PT as well. If everyone agreed on everything the world would be a lesser place.
It depends what you want from these 'duels'. They have a meaning and significance in terms of character, so they are better by default... BUT, I think that the TESB duel is very strong from a technical perspective. It always used to scare me as a kid, actually. Particularly the bit where Vader jumps out of the shadows. Great stuff.
lol this thread went off-topic unintentionally!
I should have titled it "are the OT duels faster and flashier than we give credit for"!
I never intended this to be an argument about PT VS OT.
What I was trying to say is that there is a stigma (especially within casual SW fans who haven't watched the OT for years) that OT duels literally move at slow motion bullet time speed (no lying, I really saw this at one site) and there is no technique whatever that they are just randomly flailing blows. No strategy, no agility, no use of the force, no fluidility, no technique, no (insert).
But after rewatching the OT duels, I was ****ing surprised at how fast they actually move and the amount of techniques as well as how much force powers are actually being used. For example in the ESB duel alone, Darth Vader and Luke uses far more force powers than Darth Maul VS Quegon & Obi and Obi VS Anakin combined! I was actually quite shocked that by the time he realized Luke was going to be a much harder nutcracker than he expected, Vader ultimately turn the tides and won the match by force throwing heavy items at Luke. The popular perception is that Vader just kept dueling Luke with random swinging blows until he finally cut Luke's hand by luck (but in reality the ESB duel was really one of epic proportions in which both combatants used a variety of tools at their disposal).
To repeat a statement from the Youtube ESB duel comments section.
But this thread got derailed and turned into another PT VS OT war.
Its even worse among non-Star Wars fans who think that they literally took turns hitting each other by agreement in the OT.
The lightsabre duel in the 1977 Star Wars film is my favorite. It alone of all the lightsabre duels looks kind of real. Watch kendo sword-fighting and you'll see what I mean. I can't stand the flashy stuff, which looks like buddies hitting their glowing sticks against each other.
Another point about kendo: Practitioners wear robes to conceal their foot movements from their opponent. Thus Kenobi's robe and Vader's cape and uniformly black costume. Luke in ESB and ROTJ didn't wear a robe and was thus at a disadvantage.
Worse, the guys in the PT always took off their robes before lightsabre duels. Kind of makes you wonder what in the world their Tatooine-style robes are for.
My ranking of the duels:
1. SW (awesome)
2. ESB (very good)
3. ROTJ (good in parts)
4. ROTS's Kenobi vs. Grievous (pretty flashing colors)
5. ROTS's Kenobi vs. Anakin (some emotion, at least)
6. TPM (neat moves by Maul, plus I like Qui-Gon kneeling)
7. ROTS's Kenobi & Anakin vs. Dooku (mediocre)
8. AOTC's Kenobi & Anakin vs. Dooku (boring)
9. ROTS's Mace & co. vs. Sidious (ridiculous)
10. AOTC's Yoda vs. Dooku (preposterous)
11. ROTS's Yoda vs. Sidious (absurd)
I enjoy both trilogies, and I can somewhat buy the notion that the PT was a different era where Jedi were in their prime, or coming to the end of their prime.
Vader was hampered by his cybernetics and Luke didn't have much training, or not training like Padawans had, so I can see why their fights looked like that. The one I still don't understand is Ben Kenobi, yes he's old, but we see Yoda, and Count Dooku show that age doesn't matter.
I realize the answer is because EP4 was made first in 77 and the choreography evolved over time, but it's fun to try and come up with In-universe answers. Maybe Obi-Wan was rusty and didn't practice his skills in 19 years, but my favorite view is that just like Vader with Luke, Obi-Wan was just in pure defense mode, not trying to attack Vader at all. I think he realized that He has Luke on the path now, and it's not his job to fight Vader, it's Luke's.
Retitled thread now open for further discussion on this topic.