main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

PT Are the Jedi corrupt?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Baks, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. Baks

    Baks Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2003
    I think that they where.

    They where also too rigid, lazy and complacent and set in their ways which is part of one the main reasons which leads to thier downfall.

    That and their numerous dubious decisions making throughout the entire saga.

    1. Their refusal to send something to rescue Smhi or check up on her, knowing full that Anakin was worried about her.

    2. Being soldiers instead of peacekeepers for a corrupt republic. Hypocritical, much.

    3. Like using the Clone army, even knowing that the army was created dubious circumstances by a former fallen Jedi called Sifo Dious.

    4. Asking Anakin to spy on Palps, despite knowing full that Anakin was really income doing this.

    5. Mace trying to act as judge, jury and executioner in the confrontation with Palps.

    6. Obi not finishing off Anakin on Mustafar instead he cruelly leaves his former best friend to burn to death. Not very Jedi like at all behaviour from Obi imo.

    7. Obi deliberately lying to Luke about the truth about what happened to Anakin. Neither Obi or Yoda where willing to tell the truth to Luke. Instead Luke finds out the truth from Vader, an enemy rather than from his tutors.



    Stuff like that gives me the impression, that the Jedi have acted far from honourably during the whole saga.
     
  2. 11-4D

    11-4D Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Yoda seems to think so, to some degree. Claims they were consumed by the dark side.
     
  3. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    I don't think they were corrupt, which would imply some form of criminality or dishonesty. I'd say they were more, for want of a better term, atrophied. They'd become so set in their ways, and dependent on those ways, that they didn't realize how much the Republic, itself, had become corrupt. Further, that isolationism resulted in them losing touch with how others feel and look at the Universe, which resulted in them not understanding how easily people could be misled into distrusting them. Finally , they fell victim to pragmatism, where they decided that expanding their role as peacekeepers and guardians into being soldiers was justified, given the nature of the emergency.

    I realize some of those reasons may seem contradictory; feel free to argue the point. I'm just saying that the Jedi didn't become bad; they just became misguided, and it cost them dearly.
     
  4. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    i've started watching TCW which i feel puts the arguments well itself. my favorite was what barriss said about them:
    eta: i would note that she doesn't of course know a sith is behind all of it; it's just she's noticed they are serving the dark side.

    i agree w #1-5
     
    Erkan12 likes this.
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He's always going to be afraid for her. Just as he's always afraid for Padme. He needs to let go of his fears. They're not corrupt because they don't check on her after the Battle of Naboo. They don't even know there's anything wrong with her when Anakin starts having visions of her and even he's not sure what he's seeing until it is too late.

    They acknowledge that towards the end of the war.

    First, Sifo-Dyas wasn't a fallen Jedi. Second, the Republic was using the Clone Army whether they liked it or not. They just used them because the Republic had no standing army at the ready. They investigated and found nothing dubious until later on in the war. By then it was too late.

    It wasn't corruption as it was practical. Palpatine was no longer trustworthy and Anakin was the only one Palpatine trusted.

    That's only after being pushed into changing his mind by Palpatine's attack.

    Except the Code forbids killing an unarmed and helpless person. Obi-wan split the difference. That doesn't make him corrupt. Besides, he was wise not to do this.

    They were going to tell him when he was ready, but dumbass over there decides to run off before he was ready. He wasn't ready for the burden of knowing that his father was a bastard and that he had to kill him.
     
    ChefCurryWindu, Gamiel and theraphos like this.
  6. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2004
    The Jedi being corrupt is kind of a catch-22 situation. Their corruption actually somewhat originally stemmed from them wanting to help the galaxy, but in order to do so they had to seize control. When they're discussing the possibility of Palpataine not releasing his emergency powers after the war, Mace Windu implies that he will be made to if he hesitates by the Jedi.

    The thing is, the Jedi are supposed to serve the Republic, regardless of what they believe it's flaws to be; it's a system that the Galaxy diplomatically and democratically requested and worked within, except for the Separatists who the Jedi + Republic inevitably end up fighting. Although the Jedi had noble intentions originally when trying to control things, it wasn't what they were implemented to do, it contradicts their moral code. The proper way of handling things would be to withdraw their services on behalf of the Republic, and instead, doing Private and Independent work that stayed true to their original purpose. Once they got their hands dirty in politics is when their corruption and downfall starts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that jazz.

    Qui Gon hints at this ideology in TPM when he keeps insisting on listen to the Force and letting it act on it's own. Qui Gon did not believe in controlling everything, infact, he believed in letting the Force control life.
     
    Padema, Mostly Handless and oncafar like this.
  7. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2013
    They were not corrupt, they had become complacent and stagnant. Like many organizations, they devolved into being too concerned about dogma and redtape.
     
  8. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Absolutely.
     
  9. Baks

    Baks Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 30, 2003
    1. That's still no excuse for not letting Anakin at least see her until she dies in AOTC. They could have easily allayed his fears by also freeing her from her slavery. The fact that the Jedi didn't do neither of either these things speaks volumes about them.

    2. If the Jedi are idealists, then they shouldn't served a corrupt organization like the Republic. They could have done many things to lessen the corruption in the Republic like:

    A, Refuse to serve it until the Republic reformed itself

    B, Protect people harmed by corrupt officials

    C, Use their Jedi powers to expose the corruption

    D, Arrest the corrupt

    E, Only serve Republic leaders who they believe are not corrupt.

    But they don't do any of these. Instead the Jedi are astute. They are supporting a system that doesn't support or share their values.

    3, They shouldn't have used the Clone Army regardless. People forget that the Jedi are peacekeepers first and foremost soldiers.

    It's not their job or role to lead the Clones like they did in the films, what they did made them look hypocritical. They where wrong to use the Clones.

    4. They could have used other methods to spy on Palps to get the information that they wanted. The whole bussiness of them ordering Anakin to spy on the Chancellor made them look them unethical.

    5. Mace let his emotions get the better of him during the confrontation with Palps. What Anakin said was reasonable during that scene, Mace should have really arrested Palps instead. imprisoned him and put him on trial and let the courts decide his fate to determine if he is guilty or not.

    That's what the judicial system is for, rather than Mace's ill fated attempt to pass judgement on the Chancellor.

    6. Hardly, what Obi did was a scumbag move. He should have simply killed Anakin or saved him. The fact that Obi choose neither option and instead wanted Anakin to die a painful death shows he was being an ass.

    Letting someone slowly burn to death is hardly Jedi like at all behaviour. That action hardly portrays Obi being as wise as you claim, more like vindictive.

    7. The films don't support your stance at all. I don't believe for a second that Obi or Yoda where ever planning on telling Luke the truth about Anakin at all.

    The only reason that Luke left is that he was concerned about his visions of Leia and Han of getting tortured and possibly dying.

    Obi and Yoda don't care if his friends may die, all they care about is Luke getting strong enough to overthrow Vader and the Emperor.
     
  10. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    I believe the Jedi are corrupt.

    I don't think them using the clone army was right.
    I think some of their teachings are immoral.
    Anger isn't always bad and doesn't always lead to people becoming evil.
    A little kid missing his mother after leaving her for the first time isn't evil or leads to the darkside.
    They lie. (I don't believe in excuses for committing evil.)
    Having a family and contact with family shouldn't be prohibited.
    They are arrogant.
    They don't seem very caring about people at times.
    And they are hypocrites.
     
  11. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2000
    Even if the Jedi wanted to free Shmi, they knew it wouldn't be fair to the other slaves that wanted their freedom too. The Jedi share the same motto as Spock when he said , "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" and Yoda explained this to Luke when he was having visions of Han and Leia in danger. He told him, "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but...you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered". They were trying to teach both Skywalkers to let go of their fear of loss but as usual, both men didn't listen.

    If the Jedi had refused to serve the Republic, they knew that PalpSidious will make it look like they are committing treason against the Republic. They also know that they'll lose public favor with everyone in the galaxy who look to the Jedi for help because they will despise them for it and agree with PalpSidious' plan to initiate order 66 against the Jedi.

    They will look like traitors to the Republic even if they had refused to lead the clone army. The separatists are about to deploy their droid armies on an assault against the Republic and when the people realize that the Jedi aren't around to stop them or to defend the Republic, they'll all hate the Jedi for it which is another reason why they'll go along with the order 66 massacre that PalpSidious had planned.

    There were no other methods and besides, Anakin knew that Darth Sidious is controlling the Republic and is either influencing Palpatine or IS Palpatine. He had no reason to be upset with the Council especially when he's too self-absorbed to see that Palpatine is not who Anakin thinks he is.

    "He has control of the senate and the courts".

    Mace knew that PalpSidious was never going to get a fair trial when he has the entire judicial system in his back pocket. Deep down, Anakin not only knows this too but he also knows that Mace has every justification in killing PalpSidious after he witnessed him throwing lighting bolts at Mace's face. If a suspect pulls a weapon against a cop, then that cop has every right to shoot him but Anakin cannot see the bigger picture because he's too consumed by his fear of losing Padme. Also, he doesn't really believe anything he's telling Mace because he has constantly broken the Jedi code numerous times and is just using it as an excuse to force PalpSidious into giving up information on how to gain the power to save Padme. Even if Mace had stayed focused on arresting PalpSidious, the outcome will be the same as the movie with PalpSidious blasting Mace out of the window while Anakin feels guilty about it to the point where he agrees to be PalpSidious' new Sith apprentice.

    What Anakin did to Obi-wan, the Jedi, and Padme is a bigger scumbag move. It's his own fault that he ignored Obi-wan's warning to not jump after him.

    They care enough that they knew that Luke is about to walk into a trap which is why they tried to stop him from leaving. Even as Luke arrived on Cloud city, he heard Leia say, "It's a trap" but he ignored both warnings and ended up face-to-face with Darth Vader.
     
  12. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    In general, the Jedi are not corrupt. They aren't perfect, but they are honest and have the galaxy's best interest in mind. Sorry if this answer is too short.
     
  13. Manny_Bothanz

    Manny_Bothanz Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2017
    "Corrupt" is not the first word I would choose because they are not consciously out for their own gain, but the Jedi had certainly lost their way in some manner. There are better words used in this thread like "arrogance" and "atrophied", but my favorite is "dogma."

    The Jedi have become so set in their ways they can no longer face new crises with any sort of creativity. They adhere so strictly to their doctrine and scripture that their actions become predictable and therefore easily manipulated by the Sith. Palpatine knows their every move because they are slaves to their rules and procedure. They haven't seen a Sith in over a thousand years and they're simply unprepared to deal with Sidious's cunning schemes. That's the atrophy in effect.

    Nor can they consider at all thinking outside the box with their nine year old Chosen One who has a slave mother because they've never encountered such a situation before. What's their solution to this unusual scenario? Same old, same old. They can't guide him through his strong emotions because they have never dealt with them before. They can't guide Anakin through the loss of his mother because they've never dealt with that before. And when Anakin has visions of Padme dying, what advice does Yoda have for him? Just let her die and be cool with it. No wonder Anakin finds a bond with Palpatine, his friends are icy, unrelatable, stuck-up prudes.

    The lying is clearly arrogance. They simply feel that they know better and they're the only ones who can deal with the truth appropriately. And for the most part, they are right. They are magical beings that can read peoples minds and see the future. And they've kept a galaxy filled with quintillions of systems at peace for thousands of years, so the plan was working. They lie to Luke about his father because they don't trust him to deal with that information properly. And to be fair, he's whiny teenager who blows up animals for fun.

    Probably no one is better suited to run the Republic than the Jedi, but that wouldn't be a democracy. But by choosing to serve the Republic they are also running the risk of serving a corrupt cause, which is inevitably ends up happening. I love the Bariss speech referenced earlier, it's probably my favorite moment in The Clone Wars. The arrogance of the Jedi blinds them from seeing that quite clearly they have become an instrument of evil, a tool of the Sith, waging war and suffering.
     
  14. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Man / Also Known as Bazinga'd star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Agreed. I think a definition of "corrupt" is necessary in order for us to work on a common standard.
     
    Mostly Handless and Valairy Scot like this.
  15. El Jedi Colombiano

    El Jedi Colombiano Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2013
    No.

    Why the hell do a loud and vocal subset of fandom hate the Jedi? That is something I will never understand.
     
  16. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    So, the fact that the Jedi follow the Jedi way (which, you know, is what makes them Jedi instead of something else) is a fault now? And where does that idea that can no longer face new crisis come from? Without any creativity? Since when was creativity at stake? And since when is the fact that evil exploits good a problem with good?
     
  18. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I also "love" the idea that the Jedi are corrupt because they "serve a corrupt government." Got news for ya - all of the governments on earth are corrupt if you define corrupt as doing less than 100% altruistic things for its citizens 100% of the time. Sure, you might argue so-and-so leader and/or party is "all for the people" and the other side isn't, but those "others" have supporters who believe in them so there's no consensus on doing right for all the people all the time - and that's not even bringing in those out to line their pockets or the pockets of their supporters.

    So why the hell then don't we all rebel against our governments? Not doing so surely makes us all just as "corrupt," right, because we must be condoning their actions even if we try in our own small way to make a difference?
     
  19. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I would say "corrupt" is an okay word for the Jedi in the PT for the following reasons:
    - Their own ranks have been falling to the dark side (e.g. Dooku)
    - They serve corruption even though they do so unwittingly (they are serving evil)
    - There *is* a sense of personal gain in what they are doing. They aren't seeking *material* gain, but they are increasingly on the verge of sacrificing their values to control the fate of the Republic. There's a fine line between defending the Republic and controlling it, and it's not easy to keep integrity in the situation they are in since the Republic is being ruled by the dark side of the force.

    But their primary role in the abstract, in service of the light side of the force, should be to defend against the dark side. So for instance what they are doing in TPM is fitting with their primary role: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are assigned to protect individuals not fight a war, and they are searching for the Sith (the ones ushering in the dark side directly). Their number one priority should always be finding the Sith and searching out the source of the darkness. It begins well enough in AotC (uncovering the Separtist plot, finding Dooku, even though it was a trick), but then they end up getting carried away with completing all these military missions in the Clone Wars. In doing that, they end up serving the dark side (Palpatine's agenda), and thus they become increasingly blind (they can't see through the darkness anymore; where the light ends and the darkness begins).

    Some of their young people are pointing out to the masters/council what is wrong, whether directly or not. in TCW Anakin says in one episode that he thinks the Jedi code gets in the way of ensuring victory in military missions--that he is more focused on victory than anything else is a red flag (how many others are seeing things more that way?). Ahsoka leaves the Jedi order because they didn't trust her: "If they don't trust me how can I trust myself?" Their vision is so clouded they can't even see her innocence ("see through you, we can") instead relying upon circumstantial evidence to declare her guilty. They are the mentors and they can't see clearly, so how can Ahsoka learn to channel her own sight. "Search your feelings" has become a wholly ambiguous and confusing statement (not even the Council can seem to keep clear feelings). Barriss mentioned herself that she can't see clearly and basically commits a terrorist act, but she does tell them all directly what is wrong--that they are on the wrong side. Do they listen or discuss what she said or simply dismiss her as a misguided youth lost to the dark herself? Yoda has noticed young Jedi becoming increasing arrogant: another sign that the youth are not getting clear guidance from the masters.

    And so, really the Jedi fit the uncommon definitions of "corrupt" better:
    - They've become unreliable and dysfunctional on the light side of the force (synonymous with losing their way)
    - They are in a state of decay

    But I guess I agree that "corrupt" isn't quite the best word.
     
    DaffyTheWizard likes this.
  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    What the...?!?!

    There were only 20 people in thousands of years to ever left the Jedi Order. Dooku was the last of those and the only one to have fallen to the dark side. If anything, it proves the opposite of what you're trying to argue.

    The Jedi don't serve corruption. They serve the Republic, the democratic body of the galaxy.

    There is no personal gain whatsoever. They don't seek to control anything. They seek to preserve peace and justice in the galaxy.
     
  21. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Alexrd i think there is an undeniable trend being demonstrated through these stories that the jedi are losing their way... the rest is semantics.

    we've debated this before and it went nowhere. i'm not going to try this time.
     
    Mostly Handless likes this.
  22. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    There is a trend alright, but not by the person who made the movies and created the Jedi.

    Also, it's not semantics. I've presented arguments. You're free to address them or not, but to dismiss them as "semantics" doesn't help your case.
     
    mikeximus and theraphos like this.
  23. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    George Lucas approves of TCW does he not? This *is* his story.

    edit: and you said you recognize the trend, you just seem to deny it as valid.
     
    Mostly Handless likes this.
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, he supervised TCW, not other people's interpretation of its content (or the movies, for that matter).

    That's correct.
     
    theraphos likes this.
  25. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    TCW shows quite clearly that the Jedi are losing their way imo (though i do think i'm right), and thus makes interpretation of the PT in this far more clear and obvious. so i think this does go beyond semantics. we do not see the same things and therefore there can't be any progress.

    eta: i think the problem in this is that it worked when the jedi served the republic when they were both on the light side. but after the republic is taken over by a sith, all of its activities start serving the dark side. in "defending it" the jedi serve the dark side too. they should sense that it is falling to the darkness, but they don't. if they had noticed then they can either try to overturn the republic (restore it to what they see as its rightful essence) or abandon their role (because the republic no longer serves the light side of the force). i think that the former is outside of their code (to make government become something else). so, as i think another poster said, the right thing to do is to separate themselves from the republic. but to do that, they'd have to relinquish control.

    they are in a near-impossible situation because they don't want the galaxy to fall to the dark side. but their actions help it to fall rather than preventing the fall. barriss can sense that she's serving the dark side; that's why she bombs the temple (i think that was foolish but i'm not saying barriss is a hero). she's looking in the right places though (she feels conflicted, when she searches her feelings they tell her the jedi are on the wrong side... this level of things, being guided by the force and not political/war stuff is the whole point that the jedi seem to be losing). barriss doesn't know how to affect change and i don't know why she thinks bombing the temple will do anything... but she has already in some ways fallen (her masters lead her to it by putting her in a war) and this is her distorted version of a solution.

    overall it creates conflict to be led by your masters on the light side to serve the dark side, but they can't seem to see it... and so you feel trapped. and the conflict is in your own mind, every time you kill in this war. when anakin notes she stole ventress's red blades, she says "i think they suit me" and i found that line meaningful because she feels she's been serving the dark side in this entire war, so why not use the appropriate color of lightsaber?

    and it's even more amusing after in AotC yoda goes on about the amazing clarity of the mind of a child, but yet they don't listen to their young people. lol

    i said i wouldn't try and now i keep talking.