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PT Are the Jedi corrupt?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Baks, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Well I don't see any of them considering murdering Anakin in his sleep so there's that...
     
  2. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 7, 2004
    They probably should have!
     
  3. Purple Peace

    Purple Peace Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 29, 2017
    They were pretty much kidnapping children and forcing them to train to become a jedi , that's Abduction and child labor.
     
  4. Purple Peace

    Purple Peace Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2017
    I mean think about it taking kids from their home , forcing the to train , and no wonder they turn to the dark side , what if they didn't want to be a jedi? you cant love anyone not even your parents whom you wouldn't be alive if they didn't exist.
     
  5. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    The films say people can leave the Jedi Order although it is difficult, they don't give an indication of how many people do so but I think they imply more that it is rare because the training is generally so effective the trainees don't want to.
     
  6. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    They didn't kidnap anyone. They also didn't stop anyone from leaving. Even Anakin gets to choose whether he wants to go with Qui-Gon.
     
  7. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2016
    The large busts in the Jedi library are of the Lost 20 who have left the order, including Dooku, which Obi-Wan is observing when Jocasta Nu approaches him.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    ^20 leaving (although I guess that is masters rather than just knights) over a thousand years or much longer I think actually reinforces that it's possible but very rare.
     
  9. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    It is only masters, I suppose because generally someone who makes it to master is someone who is dedicated enough they're not going to quit. Knights and padawans leaving is less shocking; IIRC there's a pretty sweet scene in a TCW comic where a padawan decides this isn't for her and she's going to go back to her birth family and live a different life, and her master says something like "you can tell them they had a daughter Master (name) was proud of" and they parted on very good terms.

    I would guess only younglings can't quit unless they have somewhere lined up to go.
     
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  10. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Two things Luke gets wrong:
    "At the height of their power, the Jedi allowed Darth Sidious to create the Empire."

    1. "Height of their power." Not if by that he means political power. The Jedi didn't rule, they served.

    2. Darth Sidious. Up until now, people have asked why nobody detected Darth Sidious even when he was standing right by them,
    and Luke seems to throw them under the bus for this. But didn't he also removed himself from Force detection? And if they didn't know he was Force-sensitive at all, it shouldn't be surprising if he didn't show up when they reached out through the Force. Plus, he never does use the Force until Episode III. The major problem with the prequels in this respect is how exclusive it made The Force. Instead of being created by all living things, now it can be used only by those with enough midiclorians. That's not a flaw in the Jedi Religion, either: it's Gospel, delivered to them by George Lucas himself.
     
  11. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    My problem with this argument whenever I see it is that it equates "not having outright magical powers" with "not part of the Force or relevant to the Force or having a role to play in the Force's mysterious workings." It assumes that if someone doesn't or won't have superpowers it's Not Fair and they're being mistreated and made to have less value, and I think that (like the fixation on how people without Skywalker blood MUST be less powerful/relevant and generally inferior) is an assumption this fandom has needed to stop and reconsider for a while now.

    As an example, consider Chirrut, who per Guardians of the Whills is barely Force-sensitive enough to sense the Force on a semi-regular basis and cannot DO anything with it. But without him and his moment of faith in what the Force needed of him, the whole galaxy and the hopes of characters more powerful than himself would have failed. If people look at his character and get mad at how "unfair" it is that he doesn't have ultimate power, like being anything less than a top-ranking Force-sensitive is a punishment, that's a terrible misreading.

    Particularly when lusting for ultimate magic power for your own self-aggrandizement or to do it all yourself and not need to work cooperatively as part of a greater whole is very consistently portrayed as a dark side trait.

    The people without superpowers are incredibly vital, and the Jedi can't do it completely alone. That's why they worked with the Republic, and why part of Sidious' plan was to turn the citizens and clones against them and have the Senate cheering about their deaths by the end.

    No little kid in real life is going to get magic powers, I'm sorry to say, but "you're a part of this and you matter, no matter how small you seem, and so you should strive to be a Good Person because the world needs you too and we can't do this if we don't work together" is something we could stand to hear more often, and less glorifying of power levels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  12. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I still think Yoda hits it on the head. Too sure of themselves they are, even the older more experienced ones. I think the overall arc (as Luke even describes in TLJ) that they allowed the Sith to rise again within their midst, that they allow themselves to think of themselves AS the light, instead of merely conduits of it, stewards of it, that does show some arrogance and some hubris.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm sorry, where were they kidnapping children and forcing them to become Jedi? I see parents giving up their children, willingly, to be trained as Jedi. Just as parents will choose their child's religion, education and other needs.

    He's referring to what Lucas said, which was that we saw the Jedi in their prime. The Jedi had become quite powerful, but also arrogant and full of themselves. As a result, they couldn't see the danger of Palpatine until it was too late. Something that Dooku himself also said to Obi-wan.
     
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  14. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 6, 2001
    I agree with Sinister. I too see parents giving their children willingly to the Jedi, like Shmi did with Anakin.
     
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  15. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    PT: To have those magical powers, you must have the requisite number of midiclorians in your blood.
    OT: To have those magical powers, you need simply have faith in the Force.

    "Not having outright magical powers" isn't a question of not being part of the Force; it means that, like Han Solo or Adm. Motti, you have a lack of Faith. If the Jedi can properly be considered a religion, then membership and training should not be based on any factor that is beyond one's control. Fairness doesn't enter into it either: those powers are there for the taking, for whoever believes and is trained properly. If the Force is, in fact, created by all living things, then all living things have access to what can be done with it. If there's one thing The Last Jedi did right, it's showing that you don't have to be born to the right family (the Skywalkers) to use the Force--ANYONE can do it. This is something Lucas backtracked over in the prequels, which themselves largely feature only Force-users in major roles, with the exception of one female who has been wife, mother, and now grandmother to Force users.

    "You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
    "You mean that energy field you only found out about three hours ago, and are now judging me for not believing in?"
     
  16. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    The rebels have faith in the Force but somehow none of them are the Jedi.
    Everyone has access to both the Force and midichlorians, they're not equal to the Force.
    Even in the OT alone, some people (and some families) clearly had more talent to be a Jedi (or a Sith), midichlorians didn't change it.
    It's also worth pointing out that just having a lot of midichlorians doesn't make anyone a powerful Force user right away, you actually need to train long and hard. Or so it used to be once upon a time...
    By the way, the prequels feature a lot of the Jedi who are clearly not children of the Jedi since relationships were forbidden to them.
     
  17. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Why doesn't Han Solo have Jedi powers in TFA? Doesn't he believe in the Force? Doesn't he think Jedi powers might be useful? It basically took Luke a few minutes to learn the basics, I'm sure Han could have spared a little bit of time in thirty years to learn how to significantly augment his combat abilities.
     
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  18. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    I assume Poe is using the Force since he seems to be a crazier pilot than either of Skywalkers.
     
  19. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Some of BB-8's exploits had me suspecting supernatural abilities. Perhaps Poe is his secret apprentice.
     
  20. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 6, 2001
    BB-8 is Plagueis.
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Once again, no. The Force was not changed by the introduction of Midichlorians. The only thing that was ever put in place, which was in the OT, was that certain bloodlines can carry on the Force from one generation to the next and retain the same level of power. The Force is strong in the Skywalker line according to Luke in ROTJ. It was strong in Anakin, Luke, Leia and Ben and was due to Anakin being the Chosen One. But the Jedi did not have families as the PT revealed, so they recruited from various families who had children who were strong with the Force. Maybe some of those parents were strong enough to become Jedi, but didn't for one reason or another. But the children could be what the parents might have been. Obi-wan is from a strong bloodline, but his family were not Jedi. Darth Maul and Savage Oppress were the children of Mother Talzin and all three were strong in the Force, with two becoming a Nightsister/Nightbrother and one becoming a Sith Lord. That hasn't changed with
    Rey being from a non Force sensitive family. She's like the majority of the Jedi in the PT era.

    Also, according to Lucas, at one point the origin of the Jedi was that they started out as twelve children of a holy man who discovered the Force and trained his offspring, who trained their own and so on. So the idea of Jedi families and dynasties can be traced back to 1975.
     
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  22. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    I've always suspected there's a big number of adult fans who truly believe there's a chance they could travel to GFFA and become a Jedi/Sith and were reminded that everyone has different talents (just like in real life) and - gasp! - you also have to work hard to become proficient at what you do (not to mention trying to be a better person in general).
     
  23. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    About the "kidnapping children" thing, even if it were involuntary and the kids were being taken against their parents' will...can't we still make the argument that this is a necessity? What's the alternative, letting these younglings grow up to develop their powers on their own, without any training as to how to use them, and quite possibly have many of them fall to the dark side?
     
  24. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    There is no evidence of a single incident where a child was taken without the parent's consent. There is no real risk in leaving the child with their parents. Without training, Force Ability is extremely limited. The only thing the Chosen One could do without training was race competitively.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
     
  25. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This risk, as Vialco said, is probably not that great.
    Luke and Anakin had some boos to their skills but nothing that they could seriously abuse.

    But since someone, way back in time, did discover how to use the Force all on their own, it can be discussed. Most likely, these very early Force users must have required a lot of time, maybe generations to get to even basic Jedi levels.

    A bigger risk would be those that want to leave when they are half-trained.
    Say they get to age 13-14 and have learned quite a bit but don't want to stay anymore.
    Can the Jedi just let those go without out supervision?
    Obi-Wan warned Luke that being half-trained was a dangerous time.

    Or what happens to Jedi that are kicked out? Those that during training shown that they are unwilling or unable to control their darker feelings.
    Are they just let go?

    Also, once the Jedi take a child, let's assume with parents consent.
    The Jedi would become the legal guardians of that child.
    So they can decide what happens to them at least they reach adult age, if that is 15 or 18 in SW is unknown.
    So if a Jedi pupil at age 11 wants to leave, where can they go?
    To their birth parents?
    After 10 years? The child wouldn't really know them.
    And said parents gave the child away, would they even want the child back?
    And would the Jedi even allow it, again they would be the legal guardians of the child.
    I suppose the Jedi could keep the child but just give it a more ordinary education and when they are old enough, they can leave and try to get a job.
    But if this person does not want to stay, that could become hard.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor