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PT Are the Jedi corrupt?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Baks, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    There are many children of the Force (potentials) out there who were identified, but not brought into the Temple. A whole list of them was kept on file in the Temple's Archives.

    ANAKIN: "Who's Bolla Ropal?"

    MACE: "He is the keeper of the Kyber crystal, the data on which can only be read by Holocrons."

    AHOKSA: "What's on the crystal?"

    MACE: "A list of every known Force-sensitive child in the galaxy. The future Younglings. The future of the Jedi Order."

    Many of these Force sensitives will never make into the Jedi Order. Just as not all of the Dagoyan Masters of Bardotta are not in the Jedi Order. Just as the Nightsisters and Nightbrothers of Dathomir are not part of the Jedi Order. These people would grow up like Rey did, not knowing about the Force and living a normal life for years.

    In the old EU, the Jedi who didn't become a Padawan to a single Master by the time they reached their teens, were sent to work in the Agricultural Corps. Obi-wan was going to be sent there, since Qui-gon had initially refused to take him on. He wound up changing his mind after a couple of adventures during a trip together. In TCW, Ahsoka was allowed to leave the Order when she was fifteen, after she had been cleared of bombing the Temple and committing murder.

    That was true, but it was also about Luke fighting a Sith Lord when he wasn't ready to do so. Obi-wan saw that conflict coming and saw paths where Luke would fail or fall.

    I don't think the Jedi just kick someone out, if they haven't gotten a grip. They would, I assume, still be paired up with their Master or assigned someone else.

    When Ahsoka left, she was as I noted, fifteen. But she chose to search for Maul as he was the only link to finding out who Darth Sidious was. Most kids don't leave on their own, based on the way it's been described. That few Jedi have left the Order, so odds are they wouldn't want to go on their own accord. But say that there was someone who did want to leave, if the Jedi didn't do something like the Agriculture Corps, they would probably see to it that the child is placed somewhere positive for their own good. They probably wouldn't be sent back to their families.
     
  2. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    "All those who gain power are afraid to lose it. Even the Jedi."

    "The Jedi are taking over!"

    "If they are not all destroyed, there will be Civil War without end."

    "Every single Jedi is now an Enemy of the Republic.....and the Jedi Rebellion has been foiled. The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated!"

    It appears the Jedi Order became complacent, decadent, corrupt. They served a corrupt bureaucratic Republic that had lost touch with reality. The Jedi lost their way. By the time they realised their follies, a group of Jedi Masters then even attempted a coup against the Republic.

    I would say they are corrupt in the sense of complacency, apathy and unwilling to do what is necessary.

    As Qui Gon Gin once said, the Jedi Order lacked...

    [​IMG]
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    He's not Qui-gon there. :p Ra's al Ghul isn't exactly that sane either.
     
  4. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    If you wish to dispense true justice, you simply walk up to someone and ignite your lightsaber through their chest. Chancellor of the Republic, or not...

    I know. Great character in that movie too. I actually wish we had more of that in the ST.

    I don't believe the Jedi were corrupt directly. But they tolerated it. And they served a corrupt Republic. Complacency and the inability/will to act spelled their doom.
     
  5. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Corrupt - hell no. I define corrupt as someone who takes bribes and is basically dishonest and shady - a politician who is easily bought, for example. The Jedi were not in the least corrupt by that definition.

    They were not perfect, either, of course. Short-sighted, complacent...sure.
     
  6. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I love the idea of this type of organisation in Star Wars. Now that would be epic.

    Complacent indeed. I think it was their apathy that led to their downfall. They were outplayed.

    The Jedi were noble, but they let themselves be associated with the corruption and through tolerating it, became part and parcel of the problem.
     
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  7. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 1, 2014
    I wouldn’t say the Jedi Order was corrupt, as that to me suggests a willful abuse of power, but rather their ideals and practices had become corrupted over time, i.e. they had strayed from what they were supposed to be and no longer represented what they were meant to stand for.
     
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I wouldn't say the prequel era Jedi are corrupt. They are somewhat isolated, dogmatic, blinded, and can have some degree of tunnel vision but they aren't corrupt.
     
  9. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 11, 2017
    I think essentially the Jedi had become complacent by the time of TPM. As far as they knew that last Sith had died a millennium before, while they seemed to have a comfortable existence as the Republic's galactic police force. Having settled in for the long haul, they eventually stagnated and became increasingly obsessed with their own dogma.
    On the other hand they were aware that Dooku, the Separatist leader was an agent of the Dark Side. So it's easy to see why the Jedi thought their best means of protecting the light was fighting for the Republic.

    Edit: In TPM Palpatine says to Amidala, "The Republic is not what it once was." This comes as a cold shower to the young Queen who eventually realises the democratic institution she'd placed so much faith in was a shadow of it's former self. This is proved later on when her pleas for help to the Senate are dismissed as nonsense by greedy and powerful capitalists who can afford to pull the right political strings.
    I think you could argue that the Jedi, having tied themselves to the Republic were effectively dragged down with it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  10. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 18, 2017
    I think there's a case that the Jedi are just too powerful and so don't have a lot of good options about how to use their power ... not use their power for good, independent of the government, much they seem indifferent to the masses, especially those actually suffering, use it too much and they would be, effectively or actually, running the government/the galaxy, being indifferent or hostile to the public's attempt to govern itself through democratic representation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
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  11. Anslyder

    Anslyder Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Mar 8, 2018
    No, they aren't.

    They lost their way, but they aren't corrupted. Their biggest problem was inflexibility and refusal of seeing things beyond their dogma.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    They did exist. That's what the Sith were.
     
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  13. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I don't know, it's possible. I didn't see Maul as the right apprentice then. Dooku yes, a certain amount of principles against corruption. To be fair yes, I think Palpatine genuinely despised the corruption and we are hearing his actual views in that speech he gives to Padme about the Republic in TPM.

    I think Palpatine's Sith were almost like a League of Shadows yes. Anakin also demonstrated what he felt should be done in AOTC (the Meadow picnic scene). I actually felt a "Jedi of action" vibe from Qui Gon and also Master Windu (both in AOTC and in ROTS where he moves against the Chancellor).

    Actually imagine Qui Gon Ginn giving the Raaz Al Ghul speech in a Star Wars movie. I actually would watch that movie in a heartbeat. I almost wish we had an ST where the Jedi debate whether to become a League of Shadows, stay out of galactic affairs, or try to perfect the relationship they had in the PT era.

    I feel like the Jedi were the only decent people around in the political establishment in the PT era. I wouldn't have minded seeing a Jedi junta led Republic. Or else Palpatine. I didn't want the corrupt bureaucrats back that's for sure.

    The Jedi became lost in their ways and became part of the Republic, instead of being Jedi.

    Maybe the big reveal will be R2D2 is Raaz Al Ghul (Raz Al Ghul D 2). He's had enough of these sentients messing the galaxy up. He had hoped that the move to harmony would be unstoppable after Endor. But he must again return to restore the balance...
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  14. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 18, 2017
    I think it's interesting that Palpatine, as the ultimate bad guy, is supposed to embody greed-but he doesn't seem to have much interest in money or maybe even material well-being but he is obsessed with power and control (and probably immortality).
    Maybe, like the Joker in TDK, he really does dislike other bad guys (the Trade Federation, corrupt Senators) because he feels their monetary greed is too limiting.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It's Ra's al Ghul. And yes, Palpatine was greedy in that he wanted all the power for himself. He wasn't about monetary gain as that isn't the sole defining aspect of greed. Something Lucas pointed out.

    "So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213.


    "The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 1999.

     
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  16. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    There is no civility, only politics. The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good.

    Enter the Bureaucrats, the true rulers of the Republic. And on the payroll of the Federation I might add...

    Palpatine was a Sith, but clearly shown to detest and despise the corruption and ineffectual governance of the Republic. He actually takes power legitimately and seems to want to establish order.

    Terrible yes. But a mind blowing plan.

    Are you replying to me? I didn't get a notification?

    George's quote there is magical. Agreed.

    Palpatine wanted to bring order to chaos, end corruption.

    And we shall have...peace.

    You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy.

    For a safe and secure society!
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Chaos that he helped to create and exploited for his own ends. Same with the war that he engineered and started. Safety? The Empire was terrorizing people. How's that safe?
     
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  18. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 18, 2017
    I'm not sure if that's true or to the extent Palpatine implied. Many may have been getting contributions (although not for campaigns as bureaucrats aren't elected) but it couldn't have been legal/official and if it was illegal I don't see why the instances when it happened couldn't have been discovered and punished (or why that couldn't have happened without a dictator being in control).
     
  19. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Out of curiosity, do we actually have any sources that depict the Jedi as being excessively dogmatic at the expense of their ideals? Has it ever even been spelled out what this dogma is?
     
  20. Delta Scepter

    Delta Scepter Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jun 5, 2014
    More like old people stuck in their ways, and couldn't bend the rules for one person, even the prophesied Chosen One.
     
  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Well we have Palpatine's word for it. A lot of the Jedi's dismissal of the Living Force, and being general inflexible.
     
  22. Flamewar

    Flamewar Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 16, 2018
    I'm leaning toward a yes, mainly because it almost appears impossible that something among them wouldn't be corrupt with a character such as Palpatine being able to rise to a high position while most were unaware of his true intent. Maybe his dark energy was something most of them were familiar with but thought of as not being exceptionally evil. Maybe each force user has a little bit of the dark side in them.
     
  23. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 25, 2003
    I wouldn't say they are corrupt. Especially not in the way those in the senate were. Conniving, scheming, bribing, lies, all for personal gain etc. That more describes the Trade Federation types within the senate. The word I would choose for the Jedi Order leading up to the Clone Wars period would be "disillusioned." Either that, or "complacent." Although their intentions were honorable, their view on the state of the galaxy seemed to be somewhat askew from reality. At least from the standpoint that they could still save it and make everything go back to what it used to be. IMO a wiser way would be to accept that things are changing and seek a new way for peace. Also IMO Luke has somewhat of a point in TLJ when he says that the Jedi's legacy was failure, as it allowed the Sith to grow right under their noses. A culture is always at its most vulnerable when it is experiencing a golden age of peace. Such is the nature of evil-it will always be there, and if one lets their guard down and doesn't still always remain vigilant, it opens the door for evil and corruption to return.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
  24. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    Well, there are a couple in relation to their position of protecting the Republic at all costs. First, they abandoned their position as keepers of the peace in order to explicitly become soldiers, even though there were a good-sized group of troopers, with experienced officers to lead them. Second, they plotted to overthrow Palpatine (even before learning he was a Sith Lord) and dissolve the Senate in order to take direct control of the Republic, even though it violated both their covenant with the Republic and the law itself.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
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  25. YT-2400

    YT-2400 Jedi Master star 1

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    Sep 3, 2008
    How complacent were they in expanding their knowledge of the Force?

    It seems to me that they were tied into a ritualized ideal of what the Force should be and how it should be utilized. To try and learn beyond that meant possibly scrapping the boundaries of the dark side even if those perceived boundaries were itself part of their ritualized notion.

    For that matter, why were Force-sensitive younglings not picked for Padawans sent into the Agricultural Corps? I never understood that. Why specifically that Corps? Why not any other?