Are the Jedi Council Forums a place for fans and praise only?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by CT-867-5309, Apr 20, 2013.

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  1. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I'd like to direct you to this comment, one that says what I've suspected for some time. This has come up all over the JCF, in the PT forum, the OT forum, LACWAC, Literature and Ep VII and has been a source of contention among the userbase since I registered here. The mods' stance on this subject, as I've seen it, has been confusing and inconsistent, in both action, inaction and words.

    Is the creation of that thread against the TOS? SSS said it was, can I get a ruling by the mod staff? SSS said this is a fan site, and the PT board is for PT fans to gush and everyone else to be banned.

    SSS saw that thread as having a "negative tone", while I couldn't disagree more. Is it negative to enjoy unintentional humor? Many people who posted in the thread seemed to be enjoying it, quite innocently.

    I reported several posts by so called "positive PT fans" in that thread for derailment and insulting other users, and those posts were not touched, and yet the thread was locked. I even specifically asked SSS not to lock the thread, but to deal with users who were causing problems. Apparently the problem was the thread itself, not the users trolling it and insulting other users.

    That thread was specifically created to enjoy unintentional moments of comedy in the PT. It's in the thread title and the OP, it is made abundantly clear to everyone. What purpose is there to go into the thread to specifically deride the purpose of the thread, except to troll and abuse others? There have been several "good things only" threads in the PT forum, and other forums like LACWAC. If someone were to go in that sort of thread and post "negativity" or criticize others for their praise, they would be subject to moderation and a possible ban. I've seen it happen plenty of times. The etiquette expected in these threads is obvious. So why weren't these posts at least edited? Are such "negative" threads and posting simply not allowed, and therefore abusive behavior is allowed to be directed at those who participate?

    I'm not really bothered by the comments meant to derail that thread, I just thought they were obviously against established forum etiquette, and instead of playing mini-mod like I have a habit of doing, I decided to just report them, as I have been told to do. I reported them specifically to avoid derailing the thread by getting into personal arguments with people, to avoid having the thread locked for that very reason. The thread got locked anyway, which I do find bothersome. Apparently the solution is to not report anyone, to not respond, to just absorb abuse while trying to enjoy posting comments that presumably are not against the TOS or Rules of the JC.

    I certainly haven't seen anything in the TOS or the Rules of the JC that says anything similar to "fans and praiseful posting only, no criticism allowed". If this is not an actual forum, but a fan site only, you might want to make that abundantly clear in words, like in the name of your site and/or in the rules of your site.

    I'm asking not only for a clear ruling here, but also consistent enforcement by the mod staff, to make it clear to everyone. If this so called "negativity" is against the TOS and/or Rules of the JC, I'd like the mod staff to start enforcing it as such. Maybe if you declare your intentions and follow up with bans, "negative" people won't bother coming to your forums fan club anymore. It's only fair.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Apr 20, 2013
  2. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Very good question, sir. I enjoy the prequels and I was enjoying that thread. I don't think it got overtly negative until certain PT fans got butthurt.

    Admittedly, I'm new here. Don't want to tell you guys how to run things, but I do think the reaction was silly and out of proportion.
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, Apr 20, 2013
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  3. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    You know threads like that would only result in bashing/flaming/and throwing personal insults. Looking at the OP, the thread was only going to go downhill from there.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2013
  4. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    No, I don't know that, and bad behavior should not be assumed. Secondly, the insults were thrown by people against the purpose of the thread, not people for it. Thirdly, if the purpose of the thread is not against the TOS, then it should not be locked, moderation should be directed at individuals breaking the TOS.

    Furthermore, this is not about that one specific thread, or any specific individuals. As I said, this is something that has been a widespread source of contention throughout the Jedi Council Forums.

    Ultimately, I'll forget about the thread, but I'm very concerned about the ruling.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Thank you for making this thread.

    1. I am a prequels fan; I'm usually defending the merits of the prequels against posters who don't like them. And I thought that thread was damn funny. There are moments in nearly every movie that can be hilarious even if that wasn't the filmmaker's intent, and one can laugh at those moments and still enjoy the movie.

    2. Adding to the above, I don't understand why any prequel fan is getting his or her feelings hurt over another fan laughing at those moments in the prequels. A similar thread can be made in the OT forum because there were some unintentionally funny moments in the OT as well. One I can think of in less than a second: Yoda yelling "ConcenTRATE!" while falling over on Dagobah when Luke gets the vision and loses his concentration.

    If I or anyone else were to make such a thread in the OT forum, would OT fans all get their feelings hurt and demand that those who posted unintentional humor in the thread just GTFO?

    3. I've heard the comment that all the "negativity" drives people away and messes up the "positive" atmosphere, and to that I ask...why are any posters responsible for what other posters think of their opinions? I thought we were only responsible for not flaming other people who post here, not creating a "positive" atmosphere by cowtowing to "positive" opinions. Why is it our responsibility to ensure that no one has to read any criticism of a favorite character or movie?

    I've been on TF.N for almost 13 years now and I can state that during the prequels era the atmosphere was definitely was not this way, with any criticism of films or characters being squashed. I was one of the ones who complained about that at the time, and was told to get over it. The moderators who told me that were correct to do so, because I was wrong and I needed to get over it. As I said, it was not other posters' responsibility to ensure that I only had to read what made me feel good.

    ETA: Also, there are fan clubs for different characters in the SWC forum, so it's not as if posters who don't want to read criticism, don't have a place to go.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Apr 20, 2013
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  6. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Think back to the TV forum dude....
  7. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I was going to address the issue of harassment toward allegedly negative users, but I think we need to know whether negativity is against the TOS and/or the Rules of the JC, first.

    Of course, negativity is a matter of perspective, but apparently my view of what is negative and what is not is in the minority. I'm willing to accept that, for the sake of this discussion.

    I am thinking back to the TV forum, GGrievous. We've had a pessimism thread there for some time, and a peeve thread. It's a major location of confusing and mixed messages, imo.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Apr 20, 2013
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Good enough, I took that part of my post out; I had a lot more examples I could add anyway and didn't want to start ranting on a Saturday morning.
  9. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    There's a lot more than that. ;) (But granted before you joined)

    Practically two years of dealing with positive vs negativity.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2013
  10. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Indeed, so let's deal with it. That's why I created this thread, I desire resolution, an end to ambiguity and confusion. It's long overdue.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    One other thing and then I'll shut up: It seems that the moderators' jobs would easier if they didn't have to moderate for opinions or "negative atmosphere" and only had to step in if posters were attacking each other personally.

    And it's not like they are getting six-figure paychecks for doing this, which really goes back to the question, why in the hell is it necessary to moderate for opinions or "atmosphere"?
  12. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    You missed my point, but it's up to you if you want to enforce this. You won't get far man.
  13. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I'm so sick of your negativity, GG. Why are you even here?

    :D
  14. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
    That's really one of the main issues. People can't seem to step back and realize that this is a messageboard. Every one has differing opinions about the movies, EU...heck, everything. People use the report feature as a way to 'tattle' on other people and expect the mods to cull every rude post out there. We don't moderate 'rude'. We fully expect that people who post here can have a disagreement without having to resort to reporting someone and expecting the mods to soothe hurt feelings.

    As for the original question, no, this place shouldn't be a haven for gushers. We should be able to have thoughtful and enjoyable discussions on both sides. That said, bashers and gushers can become seriously emotional when it comes to hating on the franchise. So, what happens is comments like you get in the linked thread and, as a result, a locked thread because people can't handle themselves very well. As GGrievous mentioned, the OP even made a 'bad movie night' comment in the first post - that kind of statement can easily lead to a basher/gusher war right there.

    In general, if these forums are going to have civilized discussion on any aspects of the franchise, both sides need to learn how to not intentionally antagonize the other and, at the same time, grow a thicker skin. There are way too many reports of people being rude or perceptions that a comment is 'flaming' or 'trolling'. Overall, the mods really do expect that the users here can talk to each other like human beings and not resort to 'get off the boards' type of comments as a resolution.
  15. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Dear internet: this.
  16. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    No need for a 'what is an opinion' war. :p

    Too many awful memories of convincing people. You should look into that, CT. Lacwac 2010, more specifically the summer, had those discussions.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2013
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  17. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I agree, Katya. I absolutely agree that people are too sensitive, and that behavior is too quickly labeled as "flaming" or "trolling".

    But I have to ask, why are some rude comments consistently edited and worthy of bans, while others are consistently (as in, always) ignored by mods, never edited or leading to bans? If "get off the boards" comments are not approved, why are they never edited? By leaving them untouched, you're sending the message that they are at least acceptable, and perhaps mod approved.

    How about consistently rude, unwelcoming comments that have been complained about for years, often from the same group of people, directed at the same group of people? You know what that sounds like? Harassment. Now, admittedly that's a rather mild form of harassment, but I was lead to believe that the Jedi Council Forums has a zero tolerance policy toward harassment by this thread. I'm pretty sure this thread isn't referring to sexual harassment, it's referring to people being meanies, especially to noobs.

    Here are some comments that I find relevant:

    Bold mine.

    At the very least it's intolerable for many current users. We've specifically pointed out harassing posts directed at other users and off topic posting. This behavior has been consistently tolerated, and certainly hasn't been dealt with severely. No one has been banned for this harassment, much less indefinitely.

    More quotes:
    This behavior has been repeated for years, toward specific users. Again, this isn't rare. It happens in every forum, sufficiently often enough, imo.
    This place is not comfortable for many existing users (I don't want to speak for new users, but I've seen some express similar thoughts), but you've definitely not taken a stand against it.
    Goes for every forum.
    To my knowledge, no, you have never banned someone for being negative, but nor do you afford them the same protection everyone else receives. You've consistently allowed people to abuse and harass people who are supposedly negative. To my knowledge, which isn't insignificant, this behavior has rarely not been tolerated. You certainly haven't taken a stand against it, you haven't dealt with it severely, and to my knowledge no one has been subject to an indefinite ban. But you have taken a stand against other forms of harassment, other forms of harassment have been dealt with severely and indefinite bans have been issued.

    So no, you won't get banned for being negative, but people are allowed to harass you and the mods will do nothing, they won't even remove the offending comment (which is important because not removing the comment sends a message that it is acceptable), or warn the person who made it, much less ban them. But if you respond to the harassment with abuse? Ban land for you. Why the double standards? Is this the message you intended to send?

    Why are "basher threads" locked because "gushers" derail it, while "gusher" threads are not locked, and "bashers" who derail it are banned?

    Apparently, some kinds of harassment are okay, while other kinds are not. Apparently, people can tell me (and others) to GET OUT, but if I respond with something similar to "**** off" (which certainly is rarely the case btw), I get banned and they do not, they don't even get their comment removed. To be clear, I fully understand that one cannot respond to abuse with more abuse.

    It's kinda unfair to expect a person to tolerate years of GET OUT without responding with a "**** off" every now and then. A person only has so much patience and can only ignore so much. But you know what? I'm okay with being banned for telling someone to "**** off", I understand it. I'm not okay with people consistently harassing others, telling them to GET OUT, and not being banned ever, no matter how many times they do it. I don't understand that. They don't even have their comments edited. Maybe if these people had their comments edited, and maybe a few bans were handed out, they'd stop harassing people for being negative. Or at least, like others who are consistently rude, they'll be permabanned.

    Is it a case of subtlety? Should I be more subtle when telling people to **** off? Why is "you're an idiot" worthy of a ban, and "GTFO" is not even worthy of an edit? What's the difference?

    So, consistent unwelcoming behavior, to the point of abuse and harassment, is okay as long as the people being harassed express "negative" feelings toward Star Wars? But if you like Star Wars and people abuse and harass you, they're out of here, permanently.

    If I'm simply being too sensitive here, I'd like any mods that thinks so to tell me to **** off, in no other words. Please. I'd prefer clarity.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Apr 20, 2013
  18. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I like to avoid the TV forum nowadays.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    It's seeping into other forums as well, GG. The thread in question in the PT forum had yet another "If you don't like it, why are you here?" comment in the post immediately following mine. I don't know how such a comment could be interpreted in any other way than "GTFO if you don't share my opinion," because otherwise, how is it anyone else's business why someone posts here? I've seen that question posted at least 36756 times in LACWAC just since I started posting there last summer (OK, slight exaggeration but my point stands). It seems a way to drive out the so-called "negative" people.

    It has also come up in the ST forum in every thread there relating to the possibility of Ahsoka being in the sequels. And honestly I don't care that much about the posts themselves, I'll gladly respond with "it's none of your damn business why I'm here"; I've only reported such posts when I see the double standard. But I have definitely seen it.
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  20. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    The TV forum is a time bomb and I'm not a fan of how it operates.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2013
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  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    "Is the creation of that thread against the TOS? SSS said it was, can I get a ruling by the mod staff?
    SSS said this is a fan site, and the PT board is for PT fans to gush and everyone else to be banned."

    I paraphrased the PT Forum's description & that posters who don't get how we do things, get banned.
    Nice try, though.

    ***

    As noted by @Katya Jade, I expect(ed) you guys to carry on without needing a moderator. The OP's "BadMovieNight comment" was just an excuse to nitpick under the guise of "unintentional humor" and that negative tone carried over, just like I thought it would. Woke up to the mess in there this morning and locked it like I should have on day one.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    As I said, I like the prequels...and you and I have posted in that forum together for years so I'm sure you're aware of that.

    But I'm not getting how "bad movie night" is a problem. The OP thought the movies were bad. (And he and I have argued about that, ended up having some decent discussions even though we don't agree.) He isn't stopping me from thinking the movies were good.

    This goes back to the question of whether negative opinions are allowed. "Bad movie night" isn't flaming anyone.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Apr 20, 2013
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  23. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    That would provoke fans of the PT, Anakinfan. It was definitely worded wrong.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Apr 20, 2013
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    But why are we responsible for whether or not someone else is "provoked" by our opinions of a movie?

    I can see the argument if someone said "The prequels are bad movies and you suck if you like them." But that's not what was said.
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  25. Son of a Bith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2013
    star 4
    Last edited by Son of a Bith, Apr 20, 2013
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