Are the Jedi Council Forums a place for fans and praise only?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by CT-867-5309, Apr 20, 2013.

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  1. Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 7
  2. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    ZOMGZORZ TEH CORRUPTION!!!!

    Who Watches The Watchmen?
    Who Moderates teh Moderators?
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, May 10, 2013
  3. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...s-nominated-for-seven-daytime-emmys.50011899/

    The above thread is a perfect example of what some of us are trying to illustrate here.

    -The Clone Wars Up For Emmy Awards
    -Some people give congratulations
    -Other people give critcism
    -Some of the 'positive' users turn around and take issue with people posting criticisms about the show, making personal comments about users here
    -Nothing is done. People are allowed to post their comments about users they don't like(while completely ignoring discussion of the show) which in turn forces those being attacked to defend themselves.


    I don't understand why comments about other users are allowed at all at this point. Talk about the subject at hand, don't get mad because someone doesn't like the same things that you do, move along.
  4. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    haven't you read the thread memo ROBIMUS? :p

    nothing is going to be done about it, nothings gonna change, only one admin is saying her own opinion on the issue, the rest don't seem to care :p

    fact is say anything negative, users have a free for all to attack you, nuff said ;)
    Robimus and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Thank. You.

    I had the same thought, that the thread to which you linked is a perfect example as to why this thread was started.

    If saying that "Ahsoka sucks" is going to be considered equal to saying that "everyone who likes Ahsoka is a ****ing idiot," I would like to know.

    I would also like to know if calling someone a "hater" or a "troll" is not going to be considered a flame, but calling someone a "****ing idiot" is, and if the answer is yes, I would like to know why there is a distinction.

    I agree. But I would appreciate the honesty that would come with a direct statement as such, as opposed to a "well, no, not really, BUT..."
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, May 5, 2013
  6. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    just read the thread in question (TCW one posted by Robimus) and all I can say is [Madtv parody of Oprah] wow, WOW [MADtv parody]

    didn't want to reply in the thread, just as well I hardly ever post in that forum, but anyway I'm glad I don't. I'd be ripped to shreads by the regulars that post there, and I wouldn't be as polite as Anakinfan is about my opinions,

    so after explaining her stances on things she accussed of trolling and only posting to get a rise out of people, yeah..not really.

    Interesting to note that a mod there seems to have the GTFO opinion if you don't like TCW, well from how I interpreted it anyway,

    can't a mod just tag a "for fans only" in the description there or something, a lot of people will be a lot clearer where they stand,
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I know. I just felt like it would be worth a share.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  8. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    The common name for it is bandwagon fallacy, or in high-falutin' languages nobody except Jello uses anymore :D "argumentum ad populum". It is trying to dismiss your argument by the saying "nobody else thinks what you think, therefore your argument is invalid." Or, in more crude terms, "Sixty million Chinese can't be wrong!"

    At a misinformed guess, I think the reason it probably ticks you off is because it's an intellectually dishonest debating tactic. In debating, there are only two honest debating tactics: debate the facts that found a conclusion, or debate the logic that leads to a conclusion. Every other debating tactic, from ridicule to smartass one-liners to overgeneralisation to ad hominem attacks on people, is an attempt to win the debate by dishonest means. The other reason -- aside from the fact it ain't, y'know, honest -- people aren't supposed to use those tactics is because they miss the point, either deliberately or as a consequence of how those debates turn out. They get away from the subject at hand. They all too easily, as repeated demonstrations in the JCC PT and/or CT forums show, result in a bunch of randoms on the Internet yelling loudly at one another.

    As for why people seem to take "I don't like Jar Jar Binks" personally: I would guess because some people identify way too much than is healthy with being a fan of the franchise, or in the inviolability of the certain sets of three films' perfection, or in George Lucas's genius(?). I think some people get their own egos tied up with the need for Star Wars to be a "perfect" franchise, especially if --as here-- you're dealing with not just an individual who holds that belief, but several members of a group, which has the effect of reinforcing that view since on this sort of board, you do feel a sense of kinship, of belonging, to a group.

    That passion is both a good and bad thing. Karen Armstrong wrote that when you take a belief as the absolute, fundamental truth, it invariably winds up in believers trying to exterminate (or excoriate, perhaps) those who hold a different view: "If my view is the absolute and is correct, the other person must be telling lies or be doing this for a malevolent purpose." The debates we wind up with here on a daily basis are microcosms, or at least analogies, of debates within religious, philosophical, or scientific circles that have been had for the past three thousand years or more. Moderators can't fix that.
    Last edited by Saintheart, May 6, 2013
    Pensive Padme and Circular_Logic like this.
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    They can't, and shouldn't be expected to. I've never once reported that type of argument. (I'll usually ask for the stats showing that "everybody" agrees, and rarely receive them, but I digress.)

    They do have the power to step in when a user takes dislike of Jar-Jar Binks or any other character personally and starts flaming or harassing the user who says that Binks sucks and should have never been in the prequels. Which is the point. If someone who thinks that Jar-Jar sucks, calls someone an idiot for saying that Jar-Jar rules, action is taken, as it should be--but often not in reverse as I have seen it. It also seems that some users are getting reputed as "bashers" and are thus automatically subject to a free-for-all. (Oh, it's that user called JarJarSucks, let it happen.). At least that's my perception which apparently is shared.

    And the "what do you expect people to say when you bash something they like??" SMH. I expect them to stay within the bounds of the TOS as I am expected to do.
    eht13 likes this.
  10. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I've found that those who make the comments like "what do you expect people to say when you bash something they like??" are very clever at skirting around TOS to attack you,

    apparently it's perfectly ok to call someone a troll who has been posting for years with well balanced arguments, which will eventually make over half the users here feel unwelcome and soon forums will be filled with "I agree" type posts.

    To the mods, I don't expect you to ban over such things, but when people are skirting TOS by attacking the poster and not the argument they make I do expect an edit, and perhaps a friendly PM warning. Those of us who see this as a problem aren't asking for a witch hunt.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  11. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Well, I think it depends on a person's level of sensitivity. Statements like that don't bother me, but I can see how in certain circumstances they would be annoying.

    For instance, if there are 10 posts in a row that only say Jar-Jar sucks and nothing more (btw I think he sucks), and you like Jar-Jar, then what you find annoying isn't so much that people are giving an opinion but not giving any reason for having that opinion and the situation that creates. When enough people do this, many people start to see an opinion like this as accepted wisdom. So, at that point, saying Jar-Jar sucks is basically seen as fact, but at the same time, people can't even criticize that b/c the people expressing this idea would simply claim, "Well, it's my opinion." Any good opinion has a rationale. It can be a very simple rationale: i.e. "I find Jar-Jar annoying because his voice just grates on my nerves," but there should be a basis of some sort. Personally, I don't care. If 100 people have 1 view and have another, I don't have a problem taking them all on. However, a lot of people find taking on that groupthink intimidating and also very difficult b/c those who are involved in groupthink don't recognize that they're trapped in groupthink, so you make your arguments, and everybody just makes snickering comments about you to each other.
    Valairy Scot and Pensive Padme like this.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Being annoying is not against the TOS. I also don't think the moderators are responsible for ensuring that sensitive people are never annoyed and/or never get their feelings hurt over their favorite character being bashed.

    And the idea that having one's favorite character or franchise bashed is license to attack the basher personally, as was suggested in the thread to which Rob linked, is quite frankly ridiculous.
    Draconarius and Darth_Zandalor like this.
  13. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    Oh curse you and your crazy shenanigans, @CT-867-5309! You make this thread and suddenly within a week we've got 7 new mods! Seems like there's a mod behind every corner post these days!
    Random Comments likes this.
  14. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    Blah blahblahblah blah...trolling...blame the victim...etc.

    Criticising is one thing. Rolling into every thread where (to use your most infamous example) Ahsoka is mentioned with "I hate Ahsoka!" or "Ahsoka sucks!" in a manner that contributes nothing to whatever is actually being discussed is trolling, baiting, and "pot stirring".

    This is one at best a handful of boards where that sort of crap is tolerated. The other major example being the infamous StarDestroyer.Net.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    So having to read that one's favorite character "sucks" makes someone a "victim"? Seriously? [face_laugh]

    Let me ask you this: where should people who believe that Ahsoka sucks, be allowed to post as such, if not in threads that discuss her?

    If the answer is "nowhere," do you have the same opinion of posts that say "Ahsoka rules," which definitely contributes nothing to the discussion?
  16. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    A compromise: Both sides have to agree to have the word "Ahs*k*" put on the banned words list. :p
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, May 10, 2013
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think I have a pretty good life and have been fortunate, but if I'm ever at the point where my worst problem is reading that "Anakin Skywalker sucks", I'll know I've really got it made.

    A lot of people think that Anakin sucks and have said so on these boards. Apparently I'm supposed to feel victimized. But I don't.
  18. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I accidently misspelled her name to a certain naughty word that caused a mod to edit it in one thread.:(
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I wondered why you got edited that time. That's hilarious. [face_laugh]
  20. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Second time I've ever been edited. I'm so disillusioned with my posting skills right now.

    :p
  21. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    If the answer is "nowhere," do you have the same opinion of posts that say "Ahsoka rules," which definitely contributes nothing to the discussion?
    -------------------

    *remembers the bashers sanctuary*

    where did that go to anyway?

    the murky depths along with blue yoda society?
  22. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    ALL HAIL BLUE YODA!

    ...is the appropriate line after mentioning the sacred name.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Even in the days when the Basher's Sanctuary was here, there was no rule against saying "Character X sucks" elsewhere on the boards, nor was there a double standard against people who said that Character X sucks vs Character X rules. I know, because I asked at the time why people were allowed to say that "Character X sucks" with no other additional comment and was told that, yes, that's allowed, and "learn to deal with people who have a different opinion."

    Which was the right response, although I may not have thought so at the time. Learning to deal with people who have differing opinions is part of life.

    From what Kate said earlier in this thread, that response still would apply. But the moderator comments in the thread to which Rob linked, seemed to indicate that "that response still applies" is half a sentence, the other half being "...but we will allow a free-for-all against any poster who criticizes a character because personal attacks can be expected when you express an unpopular opinion." To which I say...really? People can't be held responsible for making personal attacks if someone expresses an opinion they don't like?

    And before anyone claims I'm "playing the victim," I actually don't care what anyone thinks of me, in fact I would be insulted if certain people didn't find me to be a pain in the ass.

    But if people who hold "unpopular" opinions are going to be banned for calling someone a "****ing idiot" (after being repeatedly harassed, I might add) while people who hold "popular" opinions are going to be allowed to both harass people repeatedly and call them "trolls", "haters," and other such insults, with no edits, warnings or bans...I'm just wondering the reason behind the double standard.
  24. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    You just don't listen do you?

    It isn't about whether or not you like a particular thing. People post all the time about things they don't like about some aspect of SW.

    It's about how you post. It's about uniformative, unsupported snarky posts about "butt-hurt fanboys" and a belittling, dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you.

    Then you go running and whining to the mods when someone decides they don't have to put up with your bad attitude and says something back.

    They didn't start it. YOU did. And you don't want to take what you routinely dish out.

    The only reason you get away with it is because the mods here don't seem to give a rat's rear about civility standards when it comes to character/story bashing.

    See the above. It's not what you post, it's how you post.

    Make cogent, reasoned arguments and we can have a discussion like adults.

    Pop into a thread and post "Ahsoka suXz! If you don't agree with me you're a butt-hurt fanboy!", and don't be surprised when people are not favourably inclined towards you.
  25. Kev Snowmane Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2013
    star 3
    PLEASE ADDRESS THE POST AND NOT THE POSTER
    Last edited by A Chorus of Disapproval, May 10, 2013
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