PT Are the Jedi supposed to be completely emotionless?

I see what you mean, but I don't think drawing strength from your friendships and relationships with other living beings is something the Jedi would look down on. But that's also not what is meant by attachment. Attachment is saying, "I need this particular person or thing in order to be strong, and without them/it, I would become weak."

Relationships with other beings are good and encouraged. But you have to be willing to accept that those relationships will develop, and change, and sometimes disappear completely (to be replaced by new ones), and you have to be okay with that. You have to be capable of loving everybody and everything as an ever-changing, ever-shifting, interconnected whole. That's the idea behind the Living Force.

You jest, but the constant loss of limbs is actually utilized as a metaphor for attachment! Remember, Anakin murders Dooku largely out of anger for Dooku having cut off his arm. In order to be a true Jedi, we see that one must learn even to let go of his attachment to his own physical body. Which is, of course, how Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Obi-Wan eventually learn to transcend death.

 

"Remember Anakin, when we arrive on Tatooine for this next mission, to keep your emotions balanced."

"Yes master"

*lands on Tatooine and Anakin starts kicking the sand*

"DAMN YOU SAAAAANNNNDDDD!!!!!"

 

The whole topic of attachments in Star Wars canon does suffer a bit from the fact that "attachment" has more than one definition in English, and the movies don't really take enough time to fully clarify which one they're talking about - and that it isn't the most commonly used Western definition - which is certainly one of the PT's mistakes. But things like the ROTS novelization and Shatterpoint and some Legends comics and the Kanan comics and so on, and occasionally TCW, fill in the blanks a bit. (I would say Lucas' out-of-story comments too, but let's be honest, he's not always great at explaining himself succinctly in clear, precise language.)

The Jedi probably have no problem with what you're describing, aside from encouraging their members to also be strong in themselves, or at least not become entirely dependent on the continued presence of (person or thing) to be able to deal with difficult situations that arise. Because of course eventually (person or thing) won't be there, due to changing circumstances or death. But if they can selflessly care about and be happy for the person who has left, and honor the memory of the person who has died, and not flip out or fall apart or fight what can't/shouldn't be fought against, that appears to be considered acceptable and good. The key is being able to find peace about it, which the attached person can't do.

The unattached version of Anakin's story would have ended in his trying to save Padme, but not at the expense of everything she loved - only so far, and no further. He would have remained the person she'd loved, for her sake over his own, and if she had still died after all he would have worked to come to terms with it (like even normal people have to) and probably given up his place in the Order to go raise their kids or something. Or at least given them into the care of Padme's family to live good comfortable lives in a galaxy not crumbling into a horrifying Sith dystopia because their dad raged out rather than accept that loss is inevitable and you can't become a monster over it, you know?

That would be "better able to deal." That would be strength. And it'd be what the Jedi believe in*.

(*Setting aside that they discourage Jedi getting married in the first place precisely because it makes this process that much harder and more painful.)

 

Good point. Also if the Vulcans ultimate goal is to purge all emotion, why don't they voluntarily get assimilated by the Borg?

 

Because Vulcans believe in individuality. What the Vulcans do with the Kolinahr is to reach a point where emotion are purged, but not every Vulcan does so. This was evident with Sarek whose reasons for going to Kirk about Spock's body and the fal-tor-pan plea was that he still had some emotion. Spock tried for the Kolinahr because of his human half and all that he experienced during his time in Starfleet. He failed to achieve it, but Spock ultimately found the balance that he needed after his mind meld with V'ger. And save for how he was after fal-tor-pan, he was fully at peace up until his death.

 

Yeah, wasn't "Infinite Diversity In Infinite Combinations" Vulcan in origin? It's been a while.

 

Yes, they were. The reason the Vulcans reject the Borg is due to the idea of forced assimilation. That has been their philosophy for centuries. They seek peace, but do not force it on others. Kirk brought this up to a clone of Spock in "The Infinite Vulcan".

 

Re: the Vulcans, some sources (like the novel "The Vulcan Academy Murders") say that the idea Surak advocated, and Vulcans adopted, was the concept of emotional control, not emotional rejection. And that Kolinahr is the goal of a splinter group of Vulcans who wanted to go further than Surak did, and Spock studied with them because he still hadn't figured out how to balance his human and Vulcan sides.

Re: the Jedi, I've posted elsewhere that the problem with the Jedi was not that their idea of peace through emotional control was a bad idea. The problem was that they could articulate it in some pretty lousy ways.
The most obvious example of this is from ROTS, when Ani seeks Yoda's advice about his dreams of Padme's death. The idea Yoda wants to put forward is, "Be careful. You must accept that you might not be able to save her. And you mustn't go so far in saving her that you lose yourself." That's a valid message. But saying it as, "Mourn them not, miss them not", puts forward a different message: "Don't try to save her, she's already dead. Just forget she ever existed." That's not peace through emotional control, that's cold-blooded rejection of compassion.
Let me put it this way: last month, my brother passed away suddenly from a heart attack. When I talked to the police and the EMT's, I was nearly a basket case. They showed compassion for my situation, while keeping me focused on answering their questions. They understood the need for both emotional release and emotional control, and they were very helpful. But if they'd said to me, "Mourn him not, miss him not", I'd be doing time today for slugging a police officer.
I think the problem was that the Jedi were taking refuge in timeworn platitudes that sounded right to them, but that they didn't realize that it might not sound right to others.

 

I'll be the absolute last person to claim the PT doesn't have failings in its script, but Yoda's line isn't really that different from someone talking to their pastor and the pastor says something like "there there, don't feel sad for them, they're going to a better place/in a better place now" or whatever.

After all, immediately before that we get "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force." Yoda's pretty much saying to make peace with the fact that sometimes death happens, because people are really just transforming and rejoining the super rad sparkly energy of the universe. So if someone is going to die and can't be saved by reasonable measures, they're still going to be okay, cause being the Force is great, and they'll never really be gone. That's their shared culture/religion.

 

I grew up in the 70's and 80's thinking that Jedi Knights and Masters could be whoever they wanted to be; the Force worked through each individual to it's own ends. No one knew what those ends were. Luke rushed to face Darth Vader on Bespin, but I didn't spend much time thinking about it; his reasons seemed pretty clear, and to me he seemed pretty brave and handsome in his heroism to face the villain who killed his father! He also channelled his "hate" into the right kind of rage that he held together long enough to disarm Vader but not kill him in ROTJ.

I was introduced to the Force as "an energy field created by all living things that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together". The prequels showed the ultimate failure of the Jedi to accept the Force as the power that is in control of the galaxy. The Jedi cared more about the rules of their own order than the Force itself, and when the Force was brought back into balance, it seemed appropriate that it was Anakin who did it, not because of a prophecy, but for a reason of my own that I have.

It was very clear Anakin loved his mother, and it was all kinds of sick and wrong to expect him to abandon her and not know what has happened to her, not even to have an annual reunion or get any information about her. Anakin grew up to be nine years old with his mother, then a wandering mystic asked him if he could come with him, and while there may have been no reason not to trust Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, it was still sick to rip a boy from his Mom like that. Yes, I grew up thinking that not only would the Jedi not do that to their young students, I grew up thinking the Jedi would have regular family relations and warm holiday reunions and hugs. Anakin had none of that. For human beings, those things are just right.

I go by the fact that Anakin was a human being, Obi-Wan was human, Luke was human, and I'm human, and I know that at nine years old the idea that I would never see my Mom again (or worse, only once again at the moment of her death) would be ultra traumatic. I know this from real life. All that self-righteousness about "letting go of what you fear to lose" came back to harm the Jedi Order big-time. The Order shouldn't have been monastic and above everyone else in their little tower anyway. So I couldn't care less what the Jedi were supposed to be, what they were was wrong.

 

Yeah, those Buddhists really are some sick bastards, aren't they?

And guess what? If Anakin didn't want to leave his mother, he didn't have to. He could have stayed. He was given a choice. It was up to him. Hell,he could have left at any point had he desired. Dooku did. But he didn't, because he wanted to be a Jedi, with all that entails.

Jedi can't afford to have emotional attachments. They're too powerful. Their ability to cause great harm to the galaxy out of fear of losing their attachments is too great. With great power comes great responsibility. Spider-Man has to give up certain aspects of his relationships with other people in order to be Spider-Man. So do the Jedi. As heroes with exceptional, world-changing powers, they both have to walk a somewhat lonely road.

Peter Parker doesn't have to be Spider-Man, and Anakin Skywalker doesn't have to be a Jedi--and if either of them chooses to just be a normal person, they can have those kinds of relationships that were previously forbidden to them. But then they have to give up the power. It's a common, ageless theme found in all sorts of stories throughout history.

You can't have absolutely everything you want in life while ignoring the consequences. That's not how life works.

And if you think channeling hate into the "right kind of rage" is in any way an acceptable part of the Jedi way, ever was, or was ever intended to be by the primary artists behind the Star Wars films, than I'm afraid you've just fundamentally misunderstood Star Wars. The prequels are not to blame for that.

 

Not emotionless, but emotion-free. They still experience them like everyone else but are not controlled by them. So for example, anger might arise, but they don't act out on it. It is from this centered state that they are able to function and fulfill their purpose as instruments of the Force.

 

Problem is, Yoda doesn't talk about trying to save anybody; he goes directly to "let it go, move on, forget they ever were". Ani went there asking for advice on how to prevent a tragedy and was, seemingly, told to let it happen, then be happy that it did. That's not accepting the will of the Force; that's refusing to care about those you love. At least, that's how Ani (or anybody) would interpret it.

Another instance is in AOTC. Kenobi tries to warn Ani about getting too attached to Padme, which is valid, given his line of work. But he resorts to, "She is a politician, and not too be trusted," which is a total lie and a massive slur. She's clearly trustworthy, as TPM showed, and it results in another rift between master and apprentice. Again, an important message delivered in a way that anyone could interpret the wrong way.

And it continues in TESB, where Kenobi and Yoda try to get Luke to look at the big picture, but in a way that makes it look like they couldn't care less what happens to Luke's friends. They appear to lack compassion, and just want Luke to focus on killing Vader and Palpatine, and to blazes with everyone else. That's not what they mean, but it's how they appear. Fortunately, Luke, to borrow a line from "M*A*S*H", screws up in reverse, and his duel and defeat gives the others a chance to escape and gives him needed knowledge about Vader and himself.

It would've been a lot more difficult for the Jedi to get bamboozled, betrayed and near-exterminated if they'd just started to talk straight to people. Qui-Gon was pretty much the one who was best at this, from my point of view.

 

Where to start...

They were always presented as the guardians of peace of and justice in the Republic, that's a specific description of what they are, and the complete opposite of "whoever they wanted to be".

And that changed?

That's completely missing the point of those events. Luke rushed to Bespin to save his friends, not to face Vader. And he did the wrong thing, because he let his emotions dictate his actions. He was reckless and almost got himself killed. Instead of saving his friends, they were the ones who ended up saving him.

And there's no "right kind of rage". That's an oxymoron. In RotJ, Luke gave into the dark side after Vader threatened to turn Leia (which is not the right thing to do) and he almost killed a disarmed person that he was there to save (also not the right thing to do).

So was I. That never changed either.

False. When did that happen? When did the Jedi ceased to accept the Force as the energy field that binds the galaxy together?

False again. The Jedi care about the Force and have their rules within the Order. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

He chose to be a Jedi. And Jedi are completely selfless and must let go of their attachments. If he wanted to be attached to her, he was free to leave.

Watch the movie. He wasn't ripped from anyone. He was freed and made the choice to go with Qui-Gon to become a Jedi, and he was warned that it would be a hard life.

That's on you.

No, it wouldn't be "ultra traumatic". But yes, it would be tough. That's why the Council initially refused him for Jedi training. Still, he was warned. It was Anakin who chose to be a Jedi. It was Anakin who wanted to have it both ways. His greed and fear of loss was his downfall.

No, it didn't. What came back to harm them was Anakin's refusal to follow that advice and the Jedi way. Watch the movie.

Why? Because you simply don't like it? What does their Temple structure and rules have to do with anything?

 

The Jedi Temple was literally just the place where Jedi trained and studied in between missions. A Jedi's true place was out in the galaxy helping people, the Temple was no more their 'home' than whatever planet they were living on or starship they were travelling in. Their philosophy has Buddhist influences but their actual approach was shared by many missionaries of many orders (including non-religious ones - Médecins Sans Frontières for example) that you shouldn't be tied down to any one place but be willing to go anywhere at any time to help those in need.

Spider-Man's motto is basically the heart of the Jedi Code - ''With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility." And that responsibility is to the entire Galaxy, not just the bits of it you are fond of.

 

But that's not what drives Anakin to the dark side. He comes to Yoda seeking a solution to his problem, which is that the Force must be able to stop people from dying. Yoda doesn't tell him what he wants to here. Yoda reminds Anakin to let go of all that he fears to lose. He doesn't tell him to move on from his loved ones. He tells him to train himself to prepare for the nature of the Force, which is all things die. It's the same thing he tells Luke.

YODA: "Twilight is upon me and soon, night must fall. That is the way of things. The way of the Force."

Even Anakin finally understands it at the end.

ANAKIN: "Luke...help me...take this mask off."

LUKE: "But you'll die."

ANAKIN: "Nothing...can stop that now."

Obi-wan doesn't trust politicians period, as he later states in that same scene.

OBI-WAN: "And they're not to be trusted."

ANAKIN: "She's not like the others in the Senate, Master."

OBI-WAN: "It is my experience that senators focus only on pleasing those who fund their campaigns... and they're in no means scared of forgetting the niceties of democracy in order to get those funds."

ANAKIN: "Not another lecture, Master. At least not on the economics of politics. And besides, you're generalizing. The Chancellor doesn't appear to be corrupt."

OBI-WAN: "Palpatine is a politician. I have observed that he is very clever in following the passions and the prejudices of the senators."

ANAKIN: "I think he's a good man."

 

Perhaps Ani was looking for a way to prevent death in the first place, but I'm sure he'd have accepted some hopeful words, some encouragement for his situation. Yoda could've given him that, telling him to try and save Padme as much as he could, but not to the extent of losing his soul. But Yoda instead offers no hope, no encouragement and no solutions. He goes directly to writing her off, and giving him empty platitudes of "let go all you fear to lose", with no way of even trying to help. Look at it this way...

OPERATOR: 911 Emergency.
CALLER: I need help! My friend isn't breathing! I don't know CPR! What do I do?
OPERATOR: Accept they are gone. Let go of what you fear to lose. May the Force be with you. (CLICK)

Would you consider that sage advice at that time? Would you accept that as wisdom?

Yoda could've offered help, hope, reality and the Force. Ani might still have been tempted by Palpatine's lies, but Yoda would've had a better case. Instead, Yoda words his concern in way that crushed whatever trust Ani had left. That's not controlling emotions, that's denying emotions, and causing negative emotions in others. Once again, poor communications kills.

 

You keep making comparisons with police and EMTs, but Yoda is essentially acting as a religious counselor for a troubled young man here and not as a member of secular emergency services responding to an actual immediate/ongoing crisis. It's just not a very good comparison; something that would indeed be completely inappropriate for a 911 operator to say is not the least bit strange for a pastor type to say to someone who (supposedly) shares their religious beliefs and dropped by for a chat.

Also, Yoda did offer "the Force" - just not in the "why yes, you CAN have absolute control over death and never have to be sad in life" way that Anakin wanted to hear. No Jedi was going to give him that, and Yoda's not a bad person for not doing it.

 

Yeah, Anakin doesn't go to Yoda because Padme is bleeding out and needs an ambulance. The comparison is complete nonsense.

 

His religious/philosophical position doesn't make a difference. Any pastor would, while counseling that one should accept the reality of death, still try to encourage some way to help a person in danger of death. Plus, Yoda, with centuries of knowledge, might be able to advise some way to prevent Ani's prophetic dreams. Trying to cloak it with "that's not his job" doesn't cut it; anyone with an ounce of compassion would try to help. But, again, he falls back on platitudes, believing that Ani would be satisfied and not wanting to stray from the narrow conventions of the then-Jedi Code.

Ani's should've gone to Captain Typho, instead.

 

A person's life was in danger, Ani needed help, and Yoda told him, "Forget it". That's basically it. I stand by my view.

 

I mean, don't let the fact that a person's life wasn't actually in danger get in the way of your view.

A better comparison would be if someone with a wife with a terminal illness that had no cure, but wouldn't be immediately fatal, went to a religious counselor.

And, of course, Yoda gave Anakin the exact advice that, if followed even superficially, would have saved Padme's life. Yoda gave Anakin the solution that would have actually saved Padme's life, Anakin just didn't follow it. He went for the snake oil salesman, instead.

Here's a few lessons to learn from the situation: sometimes the hardest solution is the best one. Sometimes the advice you least want to hear is the best kind. Sometimes the easy way out is no way out at all. Sometimes what appears to be a miracle is really a disaster. Be careful of what you wish for, and all that.

I'm not sure why we're blaming the actual, literal sage advice (from an actual sage) that absolutely would have worked, and letting the fool of the story completely off the hook for ignoring sage advice.

You call it sage advice sarcastically, but the ironic reality is that it would have given Anakin the miracle he thought he needed.

 

This situation is like when someone goes to another for advice, ignores it, turns out the advice was right, and then gets mad at the person who gave them the right advice. But you didn't say it in a way that I liked! Yeah, maybe, but he did tell you so, didn't he?

Isn't that how it goes in the myths? The main character visits an oracle, and is told some weird cryptic **** he doesn't understand. The main character often tries to subvert the vision, only for their efforts to cause it. It turns out the cryptic advice given by the oracle was right.

Look, Yoda can't just spell it out. He can't just reveal the plot to Anakin, because the plot has to happen. He can't even say "always in motion is the future", because it's a bit too on the nose.

But he tells him enough.

Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin....

What must I do, Master Yoda?
Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

Follow the advice, and you get what you want.

Yoda can literally go "told you so" in the afterlife, if he wanted, and all Anakin can do is facepalm at his own foolishness. I mean, he did facepalm for twenty years as Darth Vader.

Someone shop Yoda saying "told you, I did" into this picture.



Or "I should have listened to Yoda."

But, Lucas sorta already did.

"Yes, yes! To Obi-Wan you listen!"

"Patience"

"Mind what you have learned! Save you it can!"

 

In Star Wars, Force premonitions are simply a metaphor for anxiety about the future. A thing might happen, but you don't know if it's going to happen, worrying about it won't change anything, and taking desperate steps in order to avert the imagined catastrophe is nothing more than obsessive and psychologically unhealthy behavior.

Like many things in Star Wars, you can't take it so literally. Thematically, Anakin really was just freaking out about a bad dream he had, and that's the whole point. He was obsessing over worries that had no basis in the real, material, physical world, but only in the hazy, ever-shifting, immaterial world of subconscious fears and Freudian anxieties.

There was no way Yoda could have helped Anakin materially, because Padme was never materially in any danger until Anakin made it so. Anakin was just utterly afraid of death as an abstract concept, and he ruminated on it so frequently and so obsessively that his fears became reified.

He could not accept death, he challenged death, and so death sought him out. And it consumed him, and he became Darth Vader, a man trapped inside a robotic sarcophagus, a human-shaped slab of cold metal with a death-mask for a face. These are all metaphors, ethereal motifs, associational images. All of them, every single one of them. They contain practical lessons within them, lessons that are applicable to you and me here in the real world. A real world where ESP is not a thing, and where literally sensing the future is not a possibility.

The Star Wars films aren't about literally being able to sense the future. Anakin's story is not about that. That's something which has absolutely no relevance to human life or to the human experience.

 

The problem with that interpretation is that the only time visions are shown as metaphorical is Luke's vision of Vader in the cave. Otherwise, they are portrayed as being actual visions of actual events & people ("The past, the future, old friends long gone"), with the proviso that future visions may be of possible, rather than actual, futures. Luke's vision of his friends on Cloud City is treated as not just possible, but likely.
In the PT, however, Ani's visions are treated inconsistently, based solely on the aim of the interpreter. Kenobi wants Ani to not think about his mother, so the vision is entirely and immediately dismissed as a bad dream. Yoda wants to keep Ani from attempting dangerous action to save Padme, so the vision is treated as pretty much a done deal, a definite future. The inconsistency would have to have made Ani suspicious as to Jedi motives. Were they trying to keep him from harm, or being cold and unfeeling towards others in need?