PT Are the Jedi supposed to be completely emotionless?

I agree.

Not even a self-deception?

I don't think a transparent deception means it's not a deception. Just because you're a bad liar, doesn't mean you're not lying.

Just because I (and perhaps even Padme) can see what he's doing, doesn't mean he's not doing it.

Perhaps a better term would be rationalization? That's what he is doing, right? Justifying? Making a case for his love for Padme?

Well, I've been caught revealing that I love Padme...and Jedi aren't supposed to love like that...but they are supposed to love like this...so you could say Jedi are encouraged to love...so I'll pass off my feelings as the right kind of love...

"You could say" is sorta the same as saying it's "true from a certain point of view"...which, for me, is the same as saying it's not true, in this situation. "You could say that we are encouraged to love". Yeah, Anakin, but not the way you love Padme. It's a very important distinction that he is twisting to suit himself. "You could say" is admitting something...that's it's not quite the full truth.

Looks like a deception to me, of both himself and Padme. He's trying to persuade both himself and Padme that his feelings are a-okay, when they both ultimately know otherwise.

It's not a malicious deception, but I think it is a deception.

I wasn't suggesting it was some kind of devilish deception made to achieve an evil end.

I already explained that, but okay.

I think the way Anakin mentioned that attachment and possession are forbidden reveals his opinion of those tenets. Revealed his opinion is!

I mean, Cael-Fenton above just said it showed Anakin's lack of conviction. I guess I'm not the only one who saw it?

Cael, if I'm misrepresented you, I'm sorry. Didn't mean to, or put words in your mouth. If I'm wrong, please correct me and I will acknowledge it.

Hmm.

I agree he is earnestly espousing compassion and unconditional love, though I find the way he twists it to suit his own feelings in this situation troubling. I think in that way, he's earnestly espousing his own feelings for Padme, passing them off as the Jedi way. He's twisting it with enthusiasm, and perhaps a bit of fun. Schmoozing? (I'll get back to this later)

Like the way someone twists a religious philosophy in real life. One can see that twist leading to a dark place. That's what I see here.

Does he understand the difference between unconditional love and the love he feels for Padme? I think he does. I think the scene shows that he understands that his love for Padme is not compassion.

Padme: It must be difficult, having sworn your life to the Jedi. Not being able to visit the places you like, or do the things you like...
Anakin: Or be with the people I love...

I think this is a sort of admission that he knows the Jedi would not approve of his love for Padme. If his love is compassion, and that is central to a Jedi's life, why can't he be with the people he loves? I think his twisting shows that he knows his love is "not right", hence the need to twist and spin like someone who has been "caught" by Padme.

(I mean, he flat out admits that his love isn't right later in the movie, anyway, during the wide open confrontation with Padme when he says they could keep it a secret, agrees that they'd be living a lie that would destroy them, that he wished he could wish away his feelings, etc.)

Is that what Lucas intended? To show how a person can go from having their heart in the right place, to Darth Vader? Isn't he showing that in this scene right here? In this case, rationalizing?

I don't find intent particularly relevant here.

I never thought he was trying to get into Padme's pants. You mentioning it is literally the first time it came to mind, at least consciously. I've never really been worried about him trying to get into Padme's pants, that's just never really entered my mind. I never went that far. I didn't mean that he was deceiving for the purpose of tricking Padme into bed or anything (more on the deception in a second), like some manipulative trick. Maybe that's just you reading your own biases and visceral dislike of me into my comments? (No? Then maybe we should drop the suspicion?)

But, of course, it can't possibly be that Anakin is spinning or deceiving. It must just be my own bias, or the conspiracy about people being oath-driven you mentioned above. Anything but true. That can't be! That's impossible! My own dislike of Anakin is why I saw that, it can't be the other way around, that I saw that, and that's why I don't think it shows Anakin in a positive light. Maybe you should step back and reconsider your reading of the scene? Or maybe we should stop gaslighting each other? At least so quickly? Maybe discuss things by taking people at their word and with good faith?

Anyway. Never thought of it as trying to get into Padme's pants, though I do think he is trying a bit of smooth talk (no, not necessarily the sexual kind), a bit of smoothing over. Schmoozing? No, schmoozing doesn't have to be about getting into someone's pants, that's too cynical. To be honest, even if he is schmoozing to charm Padme...I don't have a problem with that. I liked it when Han did it. So, that really wouldn't be something that I would see if I were trying to dislike the scene. Schmoozing is only "negative" in this sense/scene because it happens to reveal his deviation from the Jedi path. (Not that deviation from the Jedi path is actually a negative, it just doesn't make you look like a good Jedi. If you plan to leave the order, then it's all good) Drop the fact that Anakin is a Jedi, and just make it about a guy schmoozing a woman he has a crush on, and it's okay with me.

It makes sense that someone would schmooze after getting "caught", right? So is it really unreasonable for me to read it that way, when that's a very common thing for people to do? I feel pretty confident in my ability to read people, and it looked like schmoozing to me. Notice Anakin moving his head the way people do when they're searching for the truth? Notice the big grin on his face?

The deception. I find that it's actually very common. People spin things to make themselves look better. It's a common defense mechanism, slightly neurotic at most, but relatively harmless as long as it doesn't go too far and become delusional. Nothing really wrong with it, and there's nothing wrong with Anakin's actual feelings for Padme or the Jedi tenets. It's only a problem when someone is pursuing the path of a Jedi.

Learning things about the movies is one of the main reasons I participate in this forum. By participating in this thread and engaging with you and asking you questions, I am re-examining the scene, getting another's perspective, contrasting it with my own, and re-evaluating what I find to be the "correct" reading of the scene. It wouldn't be the first time I've altered my reading of Anakin. It's not even close to what it was when I first registered here, as there were a lot of nuances I didn't see before I registered here and started talking about the PT.

I mean, I saw your comment that it portrayed Anakin in a positive light, and was very confused. So I asked/commented.

To be honest, when I mentioned Ric Olie, that was really me revealing the slightest insecurity about my reading. Can you see it? That was really me saying, "this is obvious, guys....right? Right? Or is it?" I mean, I still feel confident in my reading, but if someone whose readings I respect as much as yours (and I do respect your readings, you've gotten your share of likes from me) posts a view that is the complete opposite of mine, it's time to engage. If it was someone I didn't really respect, I would have been more likely to just frown and let it pass.

I mean, you could respond by saying that I'm not actually re-examining things, that I'm actually just being a stubborn hater, or you could give me the benefit of the doubt. When you said this scene portrays Anakin in a positive light, and that only oath-bound PT critics refuse to acknowledge it, I was very confused, because this isn't the scene I would pick as least ambiguous in terms of showing Anakin in a positive light. I wouldn't have picked it as a scene showing Anakin in a positive light at all.

 

I would agree more with CT-867-5309's take on the scene.

If one only looks at what he says it is one thing but the way he said it and his facial expression made it a bit different to me.

The emphasis and tone were a bit off to me. What he said sounded a bit fake and insincere. And to me it sounded like he was reciting a lesson or repeating a mantra that he didn't fully agree with.
So he said the words but it didn't sound like he really believed it.

If this was intentional then the scene is telling us that Anakin knows the Jedi code but doesn't really want to follow it fully. If it was not intentional then this was just poor delivery or poor directing and Anakin was meant to sound like he really believed this.

As for deception, consider what brought this up.
He mentions being with people that he loves and Padme asks if he is allowed to love, that Jedi are normally forbidden this.
He tries to phrase the Jedi code in a way that makes what he feels for Padme into something acceptable by the code. That he isn't doing something that a Jedi really shouldn't do.

And it is understandable in some ways. He loves Padme and he wants her love.
So when she brings up the Jedi rules, he has to smooth it over and not drop this big obstacle in their way.
If he straight up says, "I love you but we can never have that kind of love because Jedi are forbidden this." Then that kind of ruins his chances with Padme.
So it is "spin", maybe not from an evil standpoint but a "spin" none the less.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No, the Jedi are not supposed to be completely emotionless or lacking in empathy. If that were the case, why would they be mediators?

 

I can agree with that. But I don't think he really believes his own case (nor does Padmé), so it's "self-deception" only in a pretty thin sense.

I appreciate that. I don't think it's necessary. But it may depend on what is understood by "conviction". In my reading, Anakin is "earnestly espousing" Jedi compassion, as Phantom Calamari says. But only in the theoretical sense! ie without personal conviction. He does see the value and goodness of it -- but he doesn't want it for himself. Like St Augustine's prayer: "Lord, make me chaste -- but not yet." Except I'm not sure Anakin had even a "deferred" desire to be a good Jedi. The shift from the unyielding "...is forbidden" to the subjective "which I would define" seems to reflect that theoretical/personal disconnect. On some level, he really believes he can have the compassion without the detachment -- and therefore, that a love which feels very much attached is -- or should be -- compatible with Jedi ideals.

That's a very quotable interpretation of that scene. That sounds right to me. Yes he does understand. It's of a piece with "Qui-Gon told me to stay in this cockpit, so that's what I'm gonna do".

 

emotion clouds judgment. clear mind helsp you make the best decision. just like you need discipline to make the good choices, even if they are the more difficult path, you must have no emotions [if you're a jedi]. luke let his emotions overtake him and it let him to getting his hand cut off in ep5 and his emotions overtook him in ep6 and he nearly fell to the darkside

 

Compassion requires emotion.

 

I do agree with you here. Your example of police is the same example I have used in the past when explaining the Jedi. Civilized society expects our real life police to act very much like the Jedi do. Even though our police forces are faced with some of the most horrible things humans have to offer, our expectation is that they do not act on their emotions but to stay calm and make the correct decisions.

This, your interpretation of the episode, is what I don't agree with.

To me the episode was a further condemnation of Anakin's issues with attachment, power, and not being able to let go, and not a condemnation of Jedi philosophy. We see at the beginning of the episode that Ahsoka is trying to give a briefing to the clones about the coming battle. Anakin interrupts her numerous times, which leads to an argument between the two. Anakin's justification for interrupting is he wants to make sure everything is done right. Showing that Anakin can't seem to let go of his position of power as being Master to Ahsoka and General to the troops. He doesn't trust anyone else to get the job done "right".

Once Luminara and Barriss arrive, it is decided that the two Padawans will have their own mission that will take them into the caves of Geonosis. Anakin doesn't like the idea of sending Ahsoka on a "suicide mission", however he eventually agrees to let her go. This is Anakins attachment coming up. He is unwilling to trust Ahsoka to go because of his own fear of losing her and not because of her ability.

Your assertion that Luminara was prodding Anakin to leave the entire episode is simply not true. First from the fact that the cave in and trapping of Ahsoka and Barriss doesn't happen until about 5 minutes left in the episode. Second, she never once says to Anakin that they should leave or not try to rescue the Padawans!

What she does say is that she senses that the two Padawans are drifting away and that there isn't enough time to rescue them (as we find out the Padawans are running out of air). She never says not to try to rescue them or that they should leave. Her response of there's not enough time is not based on any Jedi philosophy, but simply because she feels that there just isn't enough time to get to them to save their lives.

Here are the exchanges between Anakin and Luminara after the Padawans become trapped:

This initial scene and dialogue is important because it sets up the emotional state of Luminara that she believes her Padawan is about to die because there is not enough time to save her. We see Luminara's expressions and body language are now a bit gloomy. As I stated earlier, her thinking there isn't enough time to save them is not based of Jedi Philosophy or rules, but rather what she deduces as the outcome of the situation.

Again, Luminara is not saying they have to leave or stop the rescue effort. She has not given up on her Padawan just as Anakin has not given up on his. If one looks at what Luminara says, she uses the word if when it comes to the fate of her Padawan. It clearly shows that she is not fully sure of her Padawans fate yet. We see that she cares for her Padawan and may even be attached to her emotionally when she says she will mourn her if her time has come. However, Luminara is in control of her emotions.

What we see is that she is calm, she is isn't running around full of emotion, like Anakin, and lashing out at and putting words in the mouth of others because they aren't t acting emotional like he is. This is where we see the Jedi Philosophy at work, and where Anakin fails to grasp that philosophy. Luminara is calm and controlled as she watches the rescue efforts underway, Anakin is full of emotion. Luminara has prepared herself for the possibility of her Padawan dying, Anakin can't let go of his attachment to his Padawan. Neither one have given up, but, we can see the stark contrast between the two and how Anakin's lack of understanding of letting go of his attachments will eventually lead him to the dark side. The line of dialogue that Anakin says.. "I refuse to let Ahsoka die", does that not sound very very familiar to what Anakin says in ROTS about Padme?

Finally...

So here again, we have Anakin lashing out and putting words in Luminara's mouth. She never said she gave up, she never said they should leave, she never said they should stop the rescue effort. However, Anakin just can't seem to understand that because Luminara wasn't acting like him, because Luminara was actually doing what a Jedi should do, well to Anakin it means that Luminara must have given up.

What's even more damning of Anakin's behavior in this episode, besides the direct parallels to ROTS, is that for all of Anakin's emotionally fueled ranting, he would not have saved Ahsoka. Anakin had the clones digging in the wrong place. Once Ahsoka sent out the signal for where her and Barriss were, Anakin realized they were in a different place from where they were digging. Rex says he will bring the heavy machinery over to that spot, Anakin says there's no time and he and Luminara use the force to lift the debris off.

In the end, Luminara says it perfectly, she didn't give up, instead she was prepared to let go of her attachment to her Padawan, Anakin can't say the same.

From start to finish, the episode was a foreboding of the issues that surrounded Anakin and what we saw happen in ROTS! Anakin can't give up power, can't give up control, as we see when he can't let his Padawan give a briefing without interrupting her. We see Anakin's issue with attachments when he has an issue with letting Ahsoka go on the mission without him. Those issues with attachment further play out in the rescue attempt when Anakin becomes too emotional, and reacts irrationally towards Luminara by putting words in her mouth.

 

I dunno, saying "There's not enough time" carries the implication that it'd be pointless to even try as they'd be dead anyway. Anakin has issues regarding letting go, I'll give you that...but you must see that the Jedi don't exactly clarify it to him exactly HOW to let go without basically abandoning them to their fate. From Anakin's POV, I can easily see why he'd think she was saying, "They're dead, Anakin; we can't save them."

If I were her, I would've said, "We will attempt to rescue them, but if my Palawan has passed, I will mourn her loss and celebrate her memory." Or something to that effect. That would've helped Anakin see that yes, the Jedi DO care and will make an effort to save lives, but they're not clingy about it.

We have to understand that Anakin's not thinking like a Jedi -- he's thinking like a human being. If Ashoka had a 5% chance of surviving being buried alive, he would fight tooth and nail to get her out. To him, Luminara's behavior is inhuman. To him, she's saying, "Well, I think they're going to die -- I can feel them drifting, so there's not enough time to save them. We're not even going to try."

To quote a Will Smith movie -- iRobot: "The girl had an 11% chance [of surviving the car being underwater]. 11% is more than enough, a human being would've known that." He says it after telling a story of how a robot saved him over the girl because he had a higher chance of surviving. To Anakin, Luminara is basically behaving just like that robot, only focusing on the mission and not saving lives.

Let me poise a question: if a Jedi saw a child hanging off the edge of a cliff and they had only seconds to run over and rescue the child, would they? Or would they just stand and watch because there would be no time?

 

This!!!

 

I am not sure I agree.
I don't think the jedi are supposed to be unemotional machines that only rely on cold facts and strict logic.
Yes emotions can cloud your judgement but it can also give you an insight that simple facts might not do.
Take Luke and his compassion for his father.
Based just on the facts and logic, the "correct" viewpoint would be that Vader is beyond saving and is evil to the core. This seems to be what Obi-Wan and Yoda thinks. And Palpatine too.
But Luke thinks differently, not from facts or logic but from his feelings and insight.
He holds out hope in the face of seemingly impossible odds and he is proven right in the end.

If Luke had no emotions he would have given up his evil father for lost and not tried so hard to save him. Which in turn would almost certainly have been bad.

To sum up, emotion can make a person go the extra mile, to try harder than what logic suggest.
Yes you can go too far and end up doing more harm than good.
So a balance is needed.
You shouldn't shun emotions to the point where you stop caring. But you also shouldn't let your emotions control you. They can be a source of great power but also of some risk.

RE: this line;

Doesn't this conflict with what Yoda said in RotS?
"Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. "

I took this to mean that a Jedi should not mourn or grieve at all. Just be happy that someone has become part of the Force and then don't think about them.
I get the notion that you shouldn't become a slave to grief but to not mourn at all?
That is cold. I think it is proper to mourn, to say your goodbyes to the person that is gone and then move on. Refusing to mourn can lead to harm just like too much grief can.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

They would attempt to rescue the child, but what you're failing to understand is that when Luminara says that there may not be enough time, she's not giving up. She's stating a fact that they might not be able to reach them in time. That doesn't make her cold and uncaring. She's being very practical and logical, much like a Vulcan would be. What she says is that if it is too late, then it is too late. Her ability to sense Barris is weakening due to the severity of the situation. They may not succeed in rescuing them and that is something he will have to accept. And sometimes, the mission is more important.

There is no conflict. What both Jedi Masters are saying is that when someone dies, you will feel emotion at their loss. The trick is to not let that emotion fuel your future actions. Anakin mourned for Shmi and that mourning was filled with anger and hatred. Emotions that he used on the Tusken Raiders and is what drove him to say that he would do whatever it took to stop people from dying. Anakin is still mourning Shmi when this happens to Ahsoka, when Padme is infected with the Blue Shadow Virus and later when he sees her dying. Anakin is driven by the fear of losing Padme and that starts his fall from grace.

When Luke talks to Yoda, he tells him that he will die and that the Force cannot stop death. That death is the way of the Force. When Luke loses his aunt and uncle, he lets go of them and moves on. But he's filled with grief over Obi-wan's death and that in turn fuels his desire to rescue Han and Leia, when he foresees them in trouble. When he fights Vader, he's fighting him because of Obi-wan and Anakin, as well as his friends. When he finally learns the truth and after facing his father and himself, Luke learns to let go. When he cremates his father's remains, he is mourning him, but he is also letting him go. When we see him in Bright Moon Village, he's moved on. He's no longer mourning the dead, but is celebrating the life around him.

 

Luminara is dealing with reality. Saying there isn't enough time does not imply it's pointless to try. It's the reality of the situation as she sees it thru the force and her own eyes. It's no different than doctors or surgeons in real life. They deal in reality! If they see a patients chart, and see that the prognosis is very bad, with a very low low low chance of survival, and they tell the patient that there's a very very very low chance of survival, are they saying it's pointless in trying? No they aren't, they have to deal in reality though, not emotion. They have to be honest with themselves and with the patient as to what to expect as an outcome. So if a surgeon knows that the surgery they are about to perform has an extremely low chance of survival, are they giving up and thinking it's pointless? No, but they have to deal in the reality of the situation and be honest with themselves and the patient.

Luminara is dealing in the reality of the situation, whereas Anakin is dealing in the emotion of the situation. The fact is that Luminara never says not to try, never says to stop, never leaves, never walks away. She stays and watches the rescue effort! She refutes Anakin's assertions that she has given up or thinks they shouldn't try, not once, but twice. To only take that one sentence of dialogue from Luminara, without taking into account the context of the rest of what she says is a bit unfair towards the character and the Jedi. Especially when Anakin tries to insult Luminara by saying she gave up, when she didn't, and she says she didn't give up. What she did was looked at the reality of the situation and decided to prepare herself to let go of her Padawan if her Padawan had died or does die.

And as I said before, Anakin is not right in what he says, Luminara would have been right if it had not been for Ahsoka rigging her communicator to send a location signal. Anakin was digging in the wrong spot, and the two Padawans were passing out from running out of air. However, Anakin wanted to pat himself on the back for not giving up, and wanted to insult Luminara in the process. When she never said she wanted to give up, never said she wanted to leave, and would have been right about there not being enough time to save them had it not been for Ahsokas ingenuity. All Anakin did was get angry, get mad, get emotional, and dig for the Padawans in the wrong spot.

She does say that! Anakin refuses to listen. Just like with Yoda in ROTS, the Jedi can't force Anakin to listen they can't force him to incorporate what they teach him. That is entirely up to him! Just like with Yoda in ROTS, Yoda told him where he needed to be, it is up to Anakin to listen and to find his way there. Just like a priest, or a rabbi, they can't force people not to sin or force them to be perfectly faithful, all they can do is tell their followers why they need to do, it's up to the individuals to do it!

Luminara tells Anakin she has not given up, she tells him she cares for her Padawan. Anakin isn't some 10 year old Padawan anymore that is new to the whole Jedi thing. By the time of TCW he has had 10+ years of Jedi experience and philosophy taught to him. Luminara shouldn't have to structure her sentences and wording to try to reteach Anakin Jedi Philosophy that he already knows. The problem is that Anakin should have recognized what she was saying and understood her points. Instead he puts words in her mouths on multiple occasions, ignored what she has to say, than pats himself on the back for doing nothing but getting emotional, combative and insulting.

But that's not what she says...

Have you watched the episode? The mission was over, done, completed. They were successful in their mission. Luminara never says let's leave, she never says leave them, she never walks away from the rescue effort. She never tries to convince Anakin to leave or stop trying. She watches the rescue effort, she stays, she is calm and controlled. All she says is that she feels there isn't enough time to save them, this is the reality as she sees it and she prepares herself accordingly. She is looking at the reality of the situation and prepares herself for an outcome that may not be good. She never gives up on the chance of her Padawan surviving, she says "if" her Padawan dies. She never says her Padawan is dead or has died.

The problem isn't how Luminara was acting, it was Anakin's refusal to listen, not just to Luminara, but, to what he had been taught for the last ten years. He's running around emotional, angry, and irrational towards another Jedi. That's actually a very dangerous way for someone that's leading a rescue effort to be acting. Someone leading a rescue effort should be cool, calm, collected, not emotional. If I was buried under rubble, the last thing I want is the guy that's in charge acting on emotion instead of training.

Not sure what your point is here? Of course they are gonna try and save the child. Once again, Luminara never says they shouldn't try to save them or tries to stop Anakin from attempting the rescue effort. Just because she chose to look at the reality of the situation and prepare herself, doesn't mean she was against trying.

 

There is plenty conflict as Luminara talks about mourning and Yoda specifically and explicitly says NOT to do that. "Mourn them DO NOT" are his exact words.
This is a conflict as he directly contradicts what Luminara says.

You are trying to twist his words into something else to deal with this.
But looking at what he said is the total opposite of what Luminara said.

The only emotion Yoda says that you should have when your best friends dies is happiness.
No grief or sadness. You should not mourn them or miss them.
You should be happy and then move on and not think about them.

To me to mourning or not is not always the same as if you accept death or not.
You can accept the death of your best friend and just go "Yeah, whatever" and get on with your day, not shedding a single tear.
Or you could mourn, say your goodbyes, be a little sad and think about him or her and then let go and move on with your life.
To me, the former seems very cold and the latter is more normal.
Mourning is healthy and proper.

[/QUOTE]

Ehh I don't know. Luke failed to save his uncle and aunt and he failed to save Obi-Wan.
It is in Luke's nature to want to help and save people. Hence why he wanted to save Leia on the DS.
So when Han and Leia are in danger, his nature is to want to help them. Plus he has the added burden of those he failed to save.
He knows that it is a trap but the added problem is that he can't shut out the visions.
He feels their pain and it keeps bothering him.
So his basic desire to help people and the visions that he can't keep out, that drives him to act.
Even in RotJ he goes to Tatooine to save Han. So even after ESB, he still wants to help people.
He also goes to confront Vader in an attempt to save him. Again Luke's desire to help and save people.

Had he not gone in ESB, I think the end result would have been worse. Vader might have killed Han or Leia or both. And if Luke had felt their deaths, which is likely, then he could have blamed himself for this. And he could have gotten angry at Yoda and Obi-Wan for stopping him from leaving.
In short, he might have been a bit like Anakin after the death of Shmi.
Plus he wouldn't have the connection to his father that the Bespin duel gave him.

If he had "let go" of his father before going to Endor, that he had let go of the romantic image of his noble father and had seen Vader as just evil, what then?
Would he had tried so hard to save him?
I think that things might have ended badly in this case.

I do agree that Luke mourns his father when he burns him and this allows him to let go and move on.
But again RotS Yoda said he should not have done even this. No mourning at all, period!
Just be happy and then move on.

Possibly Yoda what Yoda said in RotS isn't exactly what meant, that he phrased his advice rather poorly. I do think so anyway.
The basic idea is sound but how it was worded was bad. It sounded far too cold and uncaring, at least to me.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

There are different ways to mourn a person. What Anakin does is turn his grief into anger. What Leia does is move on. She tells Willard that there is no time to mourn Aldreaan and her adopted family and her friends still onworld when it was destroyed. She puts her priorities in place and uses her emotions as a last resort. When Obi-wan dies, Luke is upset at first, but then starts to put his feelings aside. What Anakin does is he dwells on the negative. He's already got Padme dead and buried, when he's seen only one vision. One possible future. He keeps looking back on his failures and that drives him further to distraction. What Luminara says is not too different from what Aayla said to Ahsoka when Anakin was injured in "Jedi Crash".


AHOSKA: "I've certainly perfected the art of demolishing ships and almost getting my Master killed."

AAYLA: "Anakin doesn't have much time. We have to find help tonight."

AHSOKA: "Okay. You and Bly go south. Rex and I will stay here with Anakin."

AAYLA: "No, Ahsoka. In order to get help quickly, we must work together."

AHSOKA: "I can't leave him. Master, I know if I was hurt, he'd never leave me behind."

AAYLA: "I know this is hard, Ahsoka, but Anakin has to stay behind, and we have to go now. There is nothing more we can do for him. We must do all we can to get off this planet. As a Jedi, it is your duty to do what is best for the group."


AAYLA: "I can still sense your worry for Anakin, your attachment to him."

AHSOKA: "It's just I get so confused sometimes. It's forbidden for Jedi to form attachments, yet we are supposed to be compassionate."

AAYLA: "It is nothing to be ashamed of, Ahsoka. I went through the same process when I was your age with my own Master."

AHSOKA: "Really? You?"

AAYLA: "He was like a father to me. I realized that for the greater good, I had to let him go. Don't lose a thousand lives just to save one."

AHSOKA: "Maybe. But that doesn't mean that I can't try to save his life."


AHSOKA:"You were right all along, Master Secura."

AAYLA: "About what?"

AHSOKA: "If I had stayed with Anakin, we probably wouldn't have found this village in time to save him."

There was a time for her to stay behind and a time to go away and do something else. They still make the effort to save Anakin, but Ahsoka was letting fear and attachment dictate her actions.

It's all about your motivation. Wanting to help people is a grand and noble gesture, but a Jedi must be patient and above all else, remain in control and be willing to accept failure. When Luke throws down his Lightsaber, he's accepting that not only could he very well die, but that his friends will either live or die on their own accord. Fighting to save them will yield him nothing. If his friends are willing to sacrifice themselves for him and in the name of freedom, then that is a sacrifice that he must be willing to both make and accept.

Letting go of his father isn't about not trying to save him. Letting go means letting go of his attachment to his father. He is attached to his father, but he has to be willing to accept that his father has to die. Because that is the only way for the Force to become in balance again. Luke doesn't want to admit that. He wants to save him from being evil, but he has to accept that his father will die.

 

Yes, just like "do or do not". If you take the context away, you could argue that there's nothing wrong with trying. But the point is that he's teaching conviction and self belief. Just like he's teaching Anakin to let go and not dwell on loss due to attachment. Mouring is a sign of attachment to something that's gone.

No, he said a Jedi should rejoice for those around you that transform into the Force. It's a teaching a Jedi should aspire to apply in his life.

Again, he never said people should be happy that someone died. He said people should rejoice that despite their deaths, they become part of the Force.

No. It's about dwelling on loss.

Mourning is natural, but not healthy at all.

 

Again this brings it back to how this advice is badly phrased and came a cross as cold and uncaring.
Mourning is about letting go. Refusing to mourn often means you refuse to let go.
That you won't accept what has happened and try to deny your own feelings.

If he had said that it is normal to feel sad at the death of a person you care about but you shouldn't fear it. That you say your farewells and then let go. Then that would be different.

Rejoice, definition;
to give joy to
to feel joy or great delight
verb be very happy about something

So I would say Yoda does say that you should feel happy or joy about this.

Mourning is about dealing with loss. To say goodbye, to let go, to remember the person that is gone and accept that they are gone. And then move on with your life.
If you don't deal with it, odds are you won't let go of it.
You would just try to bury or ignore those feelings.

Anakin didn't let go of his attachment to his mother, he just tried to bury those feelings and didn't deal with them. And that ended badly.

[/QUOTE]

Totally disagree!
I have friends or family that have suffered losses and they have mourned and been able to let go and now they are back to normal. It wasn't always easy or quick but they did pull through.

Refusing to mourn, to not say your goodbyes and let go, that can be more unhealthy than mourning. If you dwell on your loss and give into your grief, that can be bad as well.
I would think if a person lost his wife and children and instantly gets over it and feels no grief or sadness at all. I would think most people would think that as not healthy.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Which is why Yoda tells Anakin that the only thing to do is to train himself to let go of all that he afraid to lose. He has to let go of his own feelings on the matter and accept whatever comes. The fact that he does not follow his training is why he's in the mess that he's in.

 

"Compassion, which I would define as 'unconditional love' is central to a Jedi's life."

Sounds like a lot of emotion to me

 

I don't think the Jedi are supposed to entirely devoid of emotion. It's just that they are not allowed to let emotions or attachments cloud their judgement. The Jedi master their emotions so as not to be controlled by them.

 

Philosophy/Training vs Personality.

Of course Jedi should be able to have emotions. That so many of them are portrayed as painfully reserved was probably a poor creative decision in the PT. But it was understandable.

Yes Obi Wan in the OT and PT was calm but he was also good humoured - both Alec Guiness and Ewan were given opportunity to put a twinkle in his eye.

Yoda...holy moly. He was a half mad cheeky loon in ESB. Sure he got serious during appropriate moments, but he was cackling, cracking jokes and teasing R2 all the way through his early scenes. And he didn't show much control when it came to displaying how much he hated the taste of carrots.

I think a lot of the consternation is driven by Luke's arc. He was young and impetuous in the OT's first 2 instalments - leading to jis breaking from his training. And they showed he had grown into a Jedi by making him cool and calm in ROTJ (when he wasn't being baited to join the dark side and give in to his feelings).

This notion that Jedi have an Elf-like reserve then went on to inform all later depictions spilling out into the mythology of the EU and PT and resulted in the monklike celebacy of the Jedi order.

Too much water has passed under the bridge to change any of that now. But I think this is how it happened.

It's not the PT's fault. It simply took its cues from what lay before.

 

I can't think of a single Jedi who was portrayed as "painfully reserved" except for Mace, and there was a good reason for that. He's by far the most detached Jedi in the trilogy, which makes it all the more dramatically compelling when he loses his control in the Chancellor's office.

 

All the Jedi we saw were in varying states of total control for almost 100% of their screen time. Yoda merely proselytised - never showing us his quirky side in all three prequels. Qui Gon never got out of second gear showing neither fear, frustration, humour nor anger in any serious amount. Even when he was in full disagreement with the Council.

I agree with you about Mace. Although I didn't really see much change in his demeanour for his saber fight.

The only Jedi who got off the leash at any time was Obi-wan who intermittently showed us hoe he felt. And maybe Kit Fisto who gave us a brief smile when he arrived in the arena.

You might object to the term painfully reserved, but consider that just synonymous for 'mostly emotionless' which is the subject of this thread.

 

Yoda didn't merely proselytize. He very memorably shows us his playful and quirky side in the scene with the Younglings when he ribs Obi-Wan for having "lost a planet." And even in Episode I, you can tell he's having a bit of mischievous fun exposing Anakin's own hidden emotions to himself. And even just before that, when he intuits that Qui-Gon wishes that Anakin be trained as a Jedi, he has the same impish look of amusement on his face as he does in Return of the Jedi when he jokingly reprimands Luke for thinking that he looks old:




And sure, Qui-Gon never goes red-faced with rage or ever starts bawling his eyes, but what else were you expecting? He's a calm, balanced person, as is in keeping with his character. He's also a compassionate person, and a kind person, and a freethinker, someone who stands up for his beliefs even in the face of strong opposition. What's wrong with that exactly? I for one felt all these aspects of his characters clearly and deeply. I never felt anything was missing from his portrayal. He's a passionate character. A quietly passionate one, but a passionate one all the same--and that comes through loud and clear in Neeson's nuanced performance. He comes across as very Jesus-like, even. Serene yet strong, full of an uncommon compassion for all.

Are you kidding me?

 

You seem to be dragging me away from the point of the thread which asked the question whether or not the Jedi by definition are emotionless (they're not imho). But it is clear that they are supposed to live their lives dispassionately - forgoing even love.

But since you asked, Yes. Mace has a death stare. But he uses it sometimes just in corridor conversations. That first pic of him saber to saber is not that far removed from these ones as you might like to think.

=

And as for that second pic, he's not the only Jedi to have a battle face. Especially when they are calling to their friends, swinging a Saber, or repelling a force attack:






Oh well. It was fun looking up pictures of Jedi fighting. Even if it only derails this thread further.

 

Mace is clearly very, very pissed off during his encounter with Sidious, far more than we've seen any Jedi before--except, of course, for Obi-Wan in that picture you posted, which you seem to have forgotten is from a moment where Obi-Wan has been seized by a fit of dark side rage. Rather kind of you to provide yet another refutation of your own point.

The two pictures you've posted of Mace are of him having a completely calm and focused expression, nothing like the frames I've posted. If you can't see any difference between those and Mace's expressions of pure hate and spite, then I fear for your ability to safely navigate social situations in every day life.