Are the new NJO books, well, lame?

When I read the newer NJO books, from Star by Star to Destiny's Way (with the exclusion of Traitor) it just seems to me that the vong seem to be nothing but weaklings as compared to what they were when they first arrived in the galaxy.

In the beginning one vong was at a par with any Jedi, but now one jedi, even children, can take out dozens of seasoned Vong warriors in full armor.

I think as a whole the NJO seems to be on a downward spiral, they aren't written as well as they used to be. I liked Star by Star a lot, but there were a number of scenes where I just didn't buy into how easily the Jedi could fight the vong.

And how come originally the Vong's shapers were able to make such menacing weapons that the New Republic and Jedi didn't know quite how to fight, but now the Jedi and Republic are coming out with one new invention after another to use against the Vong and the shapers can't seem to do a thing about it?

The worst I think though is Jaina. No matter what she gets herself into, she always comes up with some very simple plan to get out of it and easily pulls it off. How come the Vong seem to now be incapable of clever thinking themselves? At least when they're up against Jaina. And the whole thing with everyone calling her Great One is simply bad writing, no way in hell would any real military go around calling a 20 year old hotshot great one for any reason.

When the Vong first entered the galaxy they had such advantages over the Republic, but now those advantages are either unimportant for some reason, or they are now easily countered and somehow the Vong are incapable of coming up with anything new themselves. Is this bad writing?

I know I'm probably going to get some angry replies but I'd really like to hear what others thing about this.

(Note: I do very much enjoy the NJO, but this is something I have not been able to get over and the last few books, especially Dark Journy and the Behind Enemy Lines duology have really bugged me for these reasons)

 

no way in hell would any real military go around calling a 20 year old hotshot great one for any reason.

Expert in space armies fighting forces that are sweeping your universe eh?


If the reason is to win the war, then I think they would. It is Psychological warfare. The Vong believe that she is indeed a reincarnation of one of their Gods. So they maxamise their weakness. ANy good Commander would.

 

In the beginning one vong was at a par with any Jedi, but now one jedi, even children, can take out dozens of seasoned Vong warriors in full armor.

You can chalk that up to experience in fighting the Vong. After a few years of fighting, you learn the right tactics to combat the enemy.

And how come originally the Vong's shapers were able to make such menacing weapons that the New Republic and Jedi didn't know quite how to fight, but now the Jedi and Republic are coming out with one new invention after another to use against the Vong and the shapers can't seem to do a thing about it?

Again, after years of fighting, the NR scientists are now able to comprehend the Vong bio-tech. And I wouldn't say that the shapers aren't doing anything about it, one of the themes lately is the shapers developing new bio-tech.

When the Vong first entered the galaxy they had such advantages over the Republic, but now those advantages are either unimportant for some reason, or they are now easily countered and somehow the Vong are incapable of coming up with anything new themselves. Is this bad writing?

Like I've said, it's just that the NR can comprehend the bio-tech of the Vong now. Figuring that, and the fact that there's better organization within the ranks of the Jedi and the NR, it figures that they are gaining the upper hand.

 

I agree, to an extent. It seems to me also that the Vong have been growing more and more stupid as the series has progressed, especially Tsavong Lah (may he rest in peace).

>>And how come originally the Vong's shapers were able to make such menacing weapons that the New Republic and Jedi didn't know quite how to fight, but now the Jedi and Republic are coming out with one new invention after another to use against the Vong and the shapers can't seem to do a thing about it?<<

Well, this could be because they're out of knowledge, which is why Shimrra has Nen Yim off filling the eighth cortex. Hopefully they'll come up with some way to counter the NR's new weapons before the end of the series.

>>The worst I think though is Jaina. No matter what she gets herself into, she always comes up with some very simple plan to get out of it and easily pulls it off. How come the Vong seem to now be incapable of clever thinking themselves? At least when they're up against Jaina. And the whole thing with everyone calling her Great One is simply bad writing, no way in hell would any real military go around calling a 20 year old hotshot great one for any reason.<<

I agree. Although my judgement may be clouded by my dislike of this particular character.

>>I liked Star by Star a lot, but there were a number of scenes where I just didn't buy into how easily the Jedi could fight the vong.<<

Despite numerous explanations, I still don't get how Jaina used Force lightning on the Vong and Lomi used that razor net thingy. Oh, well.

In any event, I don't think the quality of the writing has decreased (much, at least), but the quality of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think, have. I realize the NR (or whatever they call it now) has to win eventually, but it seems to me that that victory is coming about at the expense of the Yuuzhan Vong's intelligence and skill. Hopefully Shimrra and Onimi won't devolve as much as Tsavy did.

EDIT: Shedao Shai is still the best.

 

>>You can chalk that up to experience in fighting the Vong. After a few years of fighting, you learn the right tactics to combat the enemy<<

Well yes I understand that, but that doesn't explain why the Vong seem to be decreasing in skill and brains so much, and children, now matter how much experience they somehow gain, are still children.

And even after learning how to fight them, it may HELP them fight them, even a great deal, but I don't think it would make the Vong seem like insignificant little flies they can swat aside by the hundreds

 

We're almost near the end. The good guys need to win, that's why I believe. But the writing is still good, IMO. With whoever the new warmaster will be, we might have a change now.

 

In the beginning one vong was at a par with any Jedi, but now one jedi, even children, can take out dozens of seasoned Vong warriors in full armor.

In the beginning, the Jedi, including the children, did not know how to combat amphistaffs with lightsabers efficiently. After 3 years fo war, they have had lots of time to bring their skills up to par. And remember, they have the force. Even if they can't sense the Yuuzhan Vong in the Force, it always gives the Jedi the advantage in some way.

I think as a whole the NJO seems to be on a downward spiral, they aren't written as well as they used to be. I liked Star by Star a lot, but there were a number of scenes where I just didn't buy into how easily the Jedi could fight the vong.

I don't think the NJO has gone in a downward spiral. IMO, Vecotr Prime wasn't that great of a story, where as Star By Star was much better. And then you had those novels in between which we could do without. *cough* Dark Journey *cough*

As to how easily the Jedi defeat the Vong, that's not true. Have you forgotten how many Jedi died at Vong hands? Anakin Solo, Ganner Rhysode, Dorsk 82, Swilja Fenn, Master Ikrit, etc. And in the beginning, for about hte first year or so of hte war, the Jedi were losing badly against the Vong. They barely got away with their lives, IMO.

And how come originally the Vong's shapers were able to make such menacing weapons that the New Republic and Jedi didn't know quite how to fight, but now the Jedi and Republic are coming out with one new invention after another to use against the Vong and the shapers can't seem to do a thing about it?

The problem with the Yuuzhan Vong shapers is that they only had a limited amount of protocals. Which means they only hada certain amount of designs for new biological weapons and terrors. That's why Shimrra assinged Nem Yim to find new ways to construct their biological weapons. And that's why the Vong now have nothing to counter the inventions of the NR (G.F.F.A.). (Or at least until Nem Yim discovers something.) On the other hand, NR scientist have had about 3 years to observe the Yuuahzn Vong's weapons, and have had enough time to invent gadgets to counter these new weapons.

The worst I think though is Jaina. No matter what she gets herself into, she always comes up with some very simple plan to get out of it and easily pulls it off. How come the Vong seem to now be incapable of clever thinking themselves? At least when they're up against Jaina. And the whole thing with everyone calling her Great One is simply bad writing, no way in hell would any real military go around calling a 20 year old hotshot great one for any reason.

While Jaina is my favourite character, I think the authors in this series (especially Cunnigham) have destroyed her character for the moment. However, I don't agree with you that she can get herself out of any mess she gets into. There were a lot of times she would've died, but, uh, let's just say the Force got in the way. Besides, you could claim the same thing about Han Solo, but you aren't, so I think you're a bit biased.

The whole thing about "The Great One" is purily psychiological warfare. It's to distract the Vong and it did work in some instances, such as the battles in Rebel Dream. Remember that.

When the Vong first entered the galaxy they had such advantages over the Republic, but now those advantages are either unimportant for some reason, or they are now easily countered and somehow the Vong are incapable of coming up with anything new themselves. Is this bad writing?

Yes, this is partially due to bad writing. But it is also due to the other factors I mentioned above.

>>You can chalk that up to experience in fighting the Vong. After a few years of fighting, you learn the right tactics to combat the enemy<<

Well yes I understand that, but that doesn't explain why the Vong seem to be decreasing in skill and brains so much, and children, now matter how much experience they someho

 

Just the new?

 

It's classic dumbing down of the villians in order to let the good guys win. It shows a lack of imagination and is unfortunately all too common in both literature and film.

 

I would have to disagree, the NJO has IMO improved over the years and the Vong whilst in some peope's opinions have weakened, have in fact just become common knowledge. If you think about it we as readers felt the Vong were indestructible in the beginning, but after four years of knowledge the NR, and us know they are not, they aren't weaker, just more vulnerable through the knowledge attained via experience fighting them.

 

Just the new?

huh?

 

Ok, explaining my post better....

Topic: Are the new NJO books, well, lame?

My reply: Just the new?

I think the whole NJO is pretty lame, considering it's not very SW-like. The main villains seem to be taken of ST or B5 and not SW. The reason I read it is because of the characters I liked from previous book. But I don't like the whole new 'plot'.

 

Umm, no, DarkWoman, neither Trek or Babylon 5 would have the Vong as villains.

A better origin for them, given the sado-masochism and religious beliefs would be to say they are watered down versions of Clive Barker's Cenobites.

B5's Shadows and Vorlons, Trek's Borg and Dominion are way above the Vong as villains, due to subtle execution as opposed to NJO's approach of a sledgehammer.

Jedi Ben

 

When I read the newer NJO books, from Star by Star to Destiny's Way (with the exclusion of Traitor) it just seems to me that the vong seem to be nothing but weaklings as compared to what they were when they first arrived in the galaxy.

I agree. In Vector Prime, ONE Yuuzhan Vong took ages to kill. Whenever we saw Vong and Jedi clashing, the Jedi had a serious fight to win - even when one-on-one. Compare that to Traitor, where Ganner wipes out thousands of Vong single-handed in his 'dance', which I felt was a bit too much. Compare that to Jaina being pinned down, a prisoner, about to die, and still winning. It seems as though the enemies have been purposefully 'dumbed down' so as to let the good guys win (this was especially the case with Tsavong Lah in DW).

In the beginning one vong was at a par with any Jedi, but now one jedi, even children, can take out dozens of seasoned Vong warriors in full armor.

And sometimes, in Ganner's case, thousands.

I think as a whole the NJO seems to be on a downward spiral, they aren't written as well as they used to be. I liked Star by Star a lot, but there were a number of scenes where I just didn't buy into how easily the Jedi could fight the vong.

I didn't see the problem so much in SBS, tbt, but it was certainly there everywhere onwards from SBS.

And how come originally the Vong's shapers were able to make such menacing weapons that the New Republic and Jedi didn't know quite how to fight, but now the Jedi and Republic are coming out with one new invention after another to use against the Vong and the shapers can't seem to do a thing about it?

Because the Vong were throwing new weapons out of the woodwork, and the NR needed a chance to beat them so the new weapons gradually disappeared.

The worst I think though is Jaina. No matter what she gets herself into, she always comes up with some very simple plan to get out of it and easily pulls it off. How come the Vong seem to now be incapable of clever thinking themselves? At least when they're up against Jaina. And the whole thing with everyone calling her Great One is simply bad writing, no way in hell would any real military go around calling a 20 year old hotshot great one for any reason.

Jaina's Jaina

When the Vong first entered the galaxy they had such advantages over the Republic, but now those advantages are either unimportant for some reason, or they are now easily countered and somehow the Vong are incapable of coming up with anything new themselves. Is this bad writing?

No, imo it's bad editing.

Btw, is it Behind Enemy Lines, or Enemy Lines? I always thought it was just EL...

The Vong believe that she is indeed a reincarnation of one of their Gods. So they maxamise their weakness. ANy good Commander would.

Again, it all seems a bit convenient.

You can chalk that up to experience in fighting the Vong. After a few years of fighting, you learn the right tactics to combat the enemy.

*And* the enemy learn the right tactics to combat you.

And I wouldn't say that the shapers aren't doing anything about it, one of the themes lately is the shapers developing new bio-tech.

I disagree. One of the themes lately is the Shapers needing to develop new biotech.

In any event, I don't think the quality of the writing has decreased (much, at least), but the quality of the Yuuzhan Vong, I think, have.

Agreed.

but it seems to me that that victory is coming about at the expense of the Yuuzhan Vong's intelligence and skill. Hopefully Shimrra and Onimi won't devolve as much as Tsavy did.

Agreed.

EDIT: Shedao Shai is still the best.

Agreed!

Have you forgotten how many Jedi died at Vong hands? Anakin Solo, Ganner Rhysode, Dorsk 82, Swilja Fenn, Master Ikrit, etc.

OK, let's look at how many they kill in their death-scenes/ swan songs.

Miko - one

Daeshara'cor - one Vong iirc?

Wurth - none

Tresina Lobi's apprenti

 

OK, let's look at how many they kill in their death-scenes/ swan songs.

Miko - one
Daeshara'cor - one Vong iirc?
Wurth - none
Tresina Lobi's apprentice - none
Countless Jedi in SBS - usually killed by Voxyn, lucky if they killed one Vong in the process of dying
Anakin - dozens
Ganner - thousands

Hmm... Do the numbers seem to be increasing..?

And lets look in TIME

Miko, never met them before.
Daes, if he has met them once Id be suprised
Wurth, irellevent. He ANYONE out
Lobis app I dont know

And here is a flaw in your reasoning.

SBS, die only killing a few, Anakin dozens. Yes, this is correct. But how many had much experience with them? Anakin fought them in DT, Conquest and SBS. None of the others had.

Ganner had the advantage of his position. Plus he had this stupid "No dark side, so who cares!" attitude.



To me, this shows EXPERIENCE. None of your examples killed many except Anakin, who had experience, and Ganner, who had the dumb force thing. I dont like the Ganner one, its worth pointing out.


And if it goes up like this, why didnt Jaina, Lowie and Tesar stand and fight in DW, rather than trap the Vong?




The Vong entered the galaxy with one trick. And now, they have lost their best, as said in one of the books. How many survivors have experience fighting Rogue Squadron, or Twin Suns Squadron, or close combat with a Jedi? Not many. Now, how much experience do THEY have with the Vong? Shedloads. Shed upon Shed.

 

Umm, no, DarkWoman, neither Trek or Babylon 5 would have the Vong as villains.

Remember Species 8472 from ST? Organic technology, really advanced, really powerful, came from outside the galaxy... familiar?

Anyway, my point was: Vong aren't very SW-like main villains IMO.

 

Well, your point certainly stands. (Although Species 8472 turn up in about 4 episodes and we still know next to nothing of them!) The Vong are NOT SW villains, but neither do they belong in the worlds of ST and B5, they belong to a uniquely cruddy class of their own.

Jedi Ben

 

I think it's a bit much saying Ganner killed Thousand"S". He probably killed close to one thousand, and half of those were probably killed by the huge cave in, not in Hand to Hand combat (Though he still killed a hundred or more, which is probably how well Anakin Solo would have done if he wasn't already dying of his wounds at the time).

 

Iirc (the book's at college, I couldn't bring everything home with me for the break and Traitor won't be missed much) the texts actually say thousands..?

 

And if you're going to be disapproving of the "Super flaming self smooshie" effect, let's not forget Dorsk 81, who took out a whole Imperial fleet (With some help).

To answer the question above:

No, the book does not specifically say "thousands", but due to the huge number of corpses ("a wall, a rampart, a fortress of the dead") and the deaths caused by the cave in, it was probably around a thousand or maybe a little more.

 

>>About this "children" thing. Jaina & Jacen were only children during the first year and a half of the war. From that point on, they were legally adults. The only other Jedi children that have fought the Yuuzhan Vong are Anakin and Tahiri, and perhaps Valin and Sannah, if you deem what they did in Conquest as combating the Yuuzhan Vong. One "child" lost his life to them. The rest of the Jedi combatants are adults. So I think you should reconsider your phrasing to exlcude the word "children". <<

Tahiri is 15 years old, even with the force she can be only so deadly. I can't buy a 15 year old taking on experienced, skilled and heavily armored warriors and winning without any real injuries. And I won't even get into how she somehow beats Lord Nyax, who's supposed to be some kind of super jedi

And Anakin too was only a little bit older than Tahirir. And over the course of the books took out dozens of Vong warriors, even when the numbers were 15 to 1.

Everyone says its because they have experience fighting the Vong, well don't the vong have experience fighting the Jedi/NR/

The Vong do know how humans tend to sacrifice many to save a few, so why not exploit that more, like they did when attacking Coruscant

 

Everyone says its because they have experience fighting the Vong, well don't the vong have experience fighting the Jedi/NR/


No, because they all die. As the books state, their best are gone.

 

And its too bad that this theme of the Vong running through experienced cadres of troops very quickly wasn't developed in earlier books, so that the readers can see how spendthrift the Vong were being with their resources.

Such sloppy editing.

 

>>As the books state, their best are gone.<<

True, true. Although the way several of them went out, you wouldn't know it.

 

Tahiri is 15 years old, even with the force she can be only so deadly. I can't buy a 15 year old taking on experienced, skilled and heavily armored warriors and winning without any real injuries. And I won't even get into how she somehow beats Lord Nyax, who's supposed to be some kind of super jedi

And Anakin too was only a little bit older than Tahirir. And over the course of the books took out dozens of Vong warriors, even when the numbers were 15 to 1.

Did you forget what happened to Tahiri in Conquest? And in Star By Star, she had the help of other trained Jedi Knights around her. And she didn't defeat Lord Nyax by herself. She had the help of Luke and Mara, Jedi Masters. And it was explained how Anakin had such potential in the Force. Not only that, but he practiced with a lightsaber how to fight the Vong without using the force, so he came up with ways to combat the enemy. Of course, there's always the fact that authors have to make the heroes all-so-powerful, but that happens in every Sci-Fi/Fantasy story.

>>As the books state, their best are gone.<<

True, true. Although the way several of them went out, you wouldn't know it.

Now that is quite true.