Are the NJO books *that* bad?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Dark_Soldier, Dec 29, 2000.

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  1. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Silencer-7,
    Trust me on this one, our Mongol friend, Genghis, knows a lot about the comics, but doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. The last little discussion that G12 and aleja had over comics, I remember that aleja said she had nearly a full run of the Marvel comics. That would kind of go against what G12 just said about aleja: "You didn't even begin looking at the comics until after DE came out. You weren't there, not by a long shot, nor do you have any idea of the things Bror and I were discussing."

    Kinda makes G12 look a bit foolish when G12 can't even remember the last discussion he had about the comics. And for G12 to tell aleja that he knows she wasn't there, well that's just . . . preposterous.
  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    JF...
    "Silencer-7,
    Trust me on this one, our Mongol friend, Genghis, knows a lot about the comics"

    Thank you. The thing is, Silencer-7 is that Mastadge is dead-on about this. No matter how much you know, someone will know more than you. The most fascinating examples are the numerous trivia topics which come up, the Fey'la's Drones, the Source Obscure Characters From Rebellion Game - these all show that there are people here who know Star Wars inside and out.

    "The last little discussion that G12 and aleja had over comics, I remember that aleja said she had nearly a full run of the Marvel comics. That would kind of go against what G12 just said about aleja: "You didn't even begin looking at the comics until after DE came out."

    The point is whether or not she owns them. The point was that in the same discussion "Has Del Rey Made A Serious Mistake," Aleja said she didn't follow the comics until Dark Empire. However, she's had to change her words so many times, it's virtually impossible to know what she knows for sure. But, you missed the point, JF. The point wasn't if someone owned them all - a rich person can pick them all up now. It's whether someone followed the "saga" throughout the years. Aleja has contradicted herself on this point in earlier statements she's made.

    "Kinda makes G12 look a bit foolish when G12 can't even remember the last discussion he had about the comics."

    I remember it well...the "last" (sorry, that's for people here who don't know what the word means ;) discussion I had about the comics was in the "When Are You Done With NJO" thread. However, if you mean the "Has Del Rey Made A Serious Mistake" - I remember that one as well.

    "And for G12 to tell aleja that he knows she wasn't there, well that's just . . . preposterous."

    However, to base such things on Aleja's prior postings is the normal way of doing things in a format such as this.

    DL...
    "Ghengis, I could just as easily ask if you hd a memo that says that the Bantam novels are a continuation of the Marvel comics."

    I have statements by Lucasfilm's Continuity Editor stating that exact same thing in different words. It's available for the public record in Mark Cotta Vaz's "Secrets of Shadows of the Empire." I should also note that the intro chapters which this is taken from are a general look, not specific to SotE.

    "I've already pointed out to you, Ghengis that when Kathy Tyers was contracted to write Truce at Bakura, LFL told her to set it directly after Return of the Jedi, and to include nasty, and at that time, extra-galactic invaders. This is in *direct* contradiction of Marvel comics which were already set in that time period with that story element."

    It doesn't contradict anything. It does point to poor planning, but doesn't contradict anything.

    "Direct Contradiction. In other words, LFL was writing over Marvel claim to continuity."

    Not at all. In fact, as has been explained to you in the past, there are subtle clues which do tie it in.

    "And that is the truth."

    According to Darth_Ludicrous. However, it's not the truth according to Lucasfilm. Personally, I'll side with Allan Kausch, Lucasfilm's Continuity Editor.

    "Now somewhere down the line, someone, some Marvel fan at LFL, decided it would be better to cram Marvel into the now crowded timeline wholesale and come up with some explanation, some continuity shoehorn(which I still haven't heard) to make it all fit."

    That's not true - there's always been links to older material over the years (Cindel Towani, etc.) even at Bantam. A lot of them were by West End Games, but there were Marvel links in novels as well. However, as was alluded to in Shadows the reason is solely due to lack of continuity "book-keeping." Since they've organized things better, it's logical that we're seeing more references to the older material - not just Marvel stuff, but the older Del Rey books, etc.
  3. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Oh, I am sorry Genghis for not interpreting the word last. I forgot that you like to bring up the comics in just about every post you make. ;)
  4. Silencer-7 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 1999
    star 3
    Well, obviously someone must be the top Star Wars trivia person. Who is it?

    And if you DO know all the Star Wars trivia there is to know out there--who cares? It doesn't make you 'cooler' the someone else who knows less SW trivia.

    Mastadge, I never claimed to know all the SW trivia there is. There is nothing I have to 'accept'.
  5. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    I'm somewhere in the bottom middle of the chain I'd guess when it comes to production trivia, and near the top middle when it comes to fiction trivia.

    I don't have any idea who's at the top, I'm just stating that, to coin a phrase, "there's always a bigger fish."
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Silencer...
    "Well, obviously someone must be the top Star Wars trivia person. Who is it?"

    The obvious answer is George Lucas for the simple fact that if he doesn't know it, he can make it not a part of Star Wars ;)

    However, just limiting things to this forum, it's probably easier to ask for "top of class." For example, Ana Vitorian is always pretty good with RPG information. There are die-hard fans of authors who know details about those novels that few others do. There are die-hard fans of companies who know details that few others do. I wouldn't even try making a judgement about top trivia person here. In fact, it's a claim that people generally don't make due to the large volume of stories which make up the saga, and I'd be very skeptical of someone who made it.
  7. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    Genghis, sweetiepie,

    I'm not the one in whose world Dark Empire in the biggest selling comic book of all time. Like I said, some fanboys may have created the EU in their own image - but the rest of us have a grounding in reality. (Silencer-7, that just may be the answer to your question :-D)

    Snookums, if you can recall, we discussed the newspaper strips and the comics. And since we talking about how continuity works in concurrent published projects, it was made clear that I read them when published. I didn't follow the comic book INDUSTRY until 1992. But my reading comprehension was just fine before then. :-D

    So, yes, sugarlips, you did base your assessment of my involvement on your perception of what was said - and as usual, your perception has absolutely nothing to do mine (or it appears, others).

    So is there a reason why you aren't actually providing the quotes and letting us judge for ourselves what was actually said? But then, you didn't believe me when I quoted Gordon Radley as saying in the October 25, 1999 issue of Hollywood Reporter that HttE jumpstarted a franchise Radley thought was dead (but George Lucas told him no, it was sleeping) - so I guess we could be even :)

    Oh, and one last thing, cookie? Only I can interpret what I actually meant. If you need clarification, you can ask. 'Kay, sweet baboo?

    Just wanting to clear up the facts before another "Dark Empire"-type fiasco is started (by the way, I checked the list of top ten best selling comic books for 1990, 1991 and 1992 - not a single issue of Dark Empire cracked the lists. ;-D)
  8. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    So what type of SAT scores did you get? T'aint fair to allude to them and then leave us hanging.

    Arggghhh!
  9. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    Darn! I came in here to edit that line out and you beat me to it!

    Sorry. I'm editing the line for being too snotty even for me - it's just Genghis always demands proof (without providing any himself, it seems...hmmmm) and I wanted to let him know that I could actually read then :)
  10. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Aleja...
    "Genghis, sweetiepie, I'm not the one in whose world Dark Empire in the biggest selling comic book of all time."

    No you're not, thank goodness. When it comes to Star Wars, hon, this fact you stated was true. But, before you attempt to revisit your prior mistakes, we should just try to stick to whether the NJO books are that bad...

    "Like I said, some fanboys..."

    and fangirls, in your case...

    "may have created the EU in their own image - but the rest of us have a grounding in reality. (Silencer-7, that just may be the answer to your question :-D)"

    Yep, I would agree. Only, clearly, you're not part of the "rest of us."

    "Snookums, if you can recall, we discussed the newspaper strips and the comics. And since we talking about how continuity works in concurrent published projects, it was made clear that I read them when published."

    Yet, you had no idea of the continuity - how Han & Chewbaaca were off adventuring in one media, while Luke & Leia were off in another adventure. That whole thing - I remember your misinformation quite clearly, Aleja.

    "I didn't follow the comic book INDUSTRY until 1992. But my reading comprehension was just fine before then."

    However, that's the whole point - the industry as it stood in the past. Not the individual stories, but the sum total "saga" comprised of the comic industry, the book industry, the children's book industry, the children's record industry. The point remains, you weren't a part of the comic industry prior to Dark Empire, and therefore not a part of the Star Wars comic industry. Hon, the Star Wars comic books were still comic books.

    "I'm happy to fax you my SAT scores should you require proof. :-D"

    It wouldn't matter, since I'd still be skeptical of your proof, since in the past it has been...less than solid.

    "So, yes, sugarlips, you did base your assessment of my involvement on your perception of what was said - and as usual, your perception has absolutely nothing to do mine (or it appears, others)."

    No, I based my assessment you wrote. If what you wrote wasn't what you meant to say, then don't blame me.

    "Oh, and one last thing, cookie? Only I can interpret what I actually meant. If you need clarification, you can ask. 'Kay, sweet baboo?"

    Sure, but others can read what you write. If you have to interpret everything you write for people, or you change your interpretations to fit the situation, then clearly that's a writer error and not a reader error.

    "Just wanting to clear up the facts before another "Dark Empire"-type fiasco is started"

    Looks like you already started it.

    "(by the way, I checked the list of top ten best selling comic books for 1990, 1991 and 1992 - not a single issue of Dark Empire cracked the lists. ;-D)"

    Nice of you to clarify your sources, hon. I wonder if you thought to consult Dark Horse on their "best selling comic book" for 1991/1992. I could care less if you like or dislike the comic, hon and as it pertains to this topic, Dark Empire also "suffered" from the same problems people are applying to the NJO as well. Thanks for bringing it up, but I don't see any relevance to Dark Empire in a thread related to the NJO beyond linking similiar "problems" between the two.
  11. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    BWA-HA-HA!

    I rest my case. *pat pat* There, there, Genghis. Here, have a cookie. Feel better now? Oh, and you may want to look up the word "perception."

    Sorry, everyone else, for even responding in the first place. What a waste of bandwith and your time. Sorry again.

  12. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    From the recent Star Wars Gamer (emphasis mine):

    "For more than 100 issues, Marvel Comics produced a Star Wars comic book series that introduced numerous stories, technologies, and species set in the Classic era of the Star Wars universe. ~Though these stories are not considered canon,~ the idea's created for them work well in a roleplaying enviroment."

    It goes on for a short time, but that was the relevent part.

    So according to the most recent official source, the Marvel Comics are not considered canon.
  13. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I'm a latecomer to this discussion, obviously...

    For the record, though, only the films and their various adaptations are "canon."

    So, yes, it's true that the Marvel comics are not canon. Then again, neither are the Dark Horse comics, the Bantam novels and short stories, the Del Rey novels, the various juvenile novels, or the gaming material and stories published by West End Games or Wizards of the Coast.

    Unless the context of what you quoted made it clear that by "canon," the writer really meant "official" (which is the category in which the bulk of comics, books, and gaming materials belong), Gandolf, I don't think this quote demonstrates what you think it does.
  14. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    EVERYONE GO BUY A COPY OF SECRETS OF SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE NOW!!!!

    They explain, in official LucasFilm terms, what is meant by Canon and what they consider canon. So there.
  15. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin SkySolo: Given that I found that in a SWRPG magazine, I am fairly sure about what they meant.

    Movies, and the novelizations, screenplays, etc, are the highest canon.
    The Bantom and Del Ray adult novels are next.
    Following them comes most of the Dark Horse and RPG sources.
    Then comes some of the Marvel comics.
    Followed by some of the video games.

    Glove of Darth Vader, some Marvel comics, etc, are dead last, right down there with the coloring books.
  16. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Gandolf, that's disputable. What about source materiel, essential guides and whatnot? The Essentail Chronology, which is official and recent, fits in the marvel comics and GoDV series, so blah. Anything that's not the films or their screenplays and novelizations is pretty much all the same. Where there is a significant contradiction, usually it is sorted out by the line of precedence you stated, but the books aren't any more official than the comics.
  17. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    Secrets of Shadows of the Empire i badly outdated, Mastage. And back when it was current I paged through it and thought it laughably deficient in any real actual data.. just and accounting how that awful $hawdow$ was assembled.
  18. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    And trust me on this, Ghengis, Marvel's inclusion on the timeline is a *very* recent development. After Dark Empire's publication, it was decided that only comics published by DarkHorse or even republished by DarkHorse were counted as part of the timeline. That is why "The Vandelhelm Mission" alone was reprinted from the Marvel run of comics. It could stand independently of marvel comics and fit into he current timeline. If you don't believe me, look up Dark Horse's comments about Vandelhelm's publication if any exist online.
  19. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Aleja...
    "Sorry, everyone else, for even responding in the first place. What a waste of bandwith and your time. Sorry again."

    Apology accepted, Aleja. We agree it was a waste of bandwidth and our time, as is always the case when you're being a troll.
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Gandolf...
    "Movies, and the novelizations, screenplays, etc, are the highest canon.
    The Bantom and Del Ray adult novels are next.
    Following them comes most of the Dark Horse and RPG sources.
    Then comes some of the Marvel comics.
    Followed by some of the video games.

    Glove of Darth Vader, some Marvel comics, etc, are dead last, right down there with the coloring books."

    Nope, that's just some sort of fan-creation not at all backed up by any official plan. In fact, one of the main problems with your pet non-Canon heirarchy is the fact that the RPG formed the basis for te novels, by Zahn's and others own accounts in SWAJ interviews.

    The official stance only has Canon (movie items) and/or non-Canon designations. I agree that Marvel is not Canon, but as Mastadge has stated, neither are the EU novels, comics, games, etc. So you have simply made the case that the Marvel stuff is at the same non-Canon level as everything else, as opposed to being on the level of the movies.
  21. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    Genghis: ?For others, the Ewok adventure TV shows were what got them started. Others jumped aboard for the Ewoks/Droids cartoons. Others found it through the RPG.?

    OK, you?re telling me that you think a significant portion of Star Wars fans first came to the series/genre vis these tertiary spin-off creations? Sorry, it doesn?t work that way. These products were aimed at people who were already movie fans. I?m not saying what you suggested COULDN?T happen, I?m just saying that it?s a small fraction of a percent at best, that?s all. And you cannot tailor an ongoing series around such an infinitesimally small part of the fan base. Unless George Lucas was a completely obsessive maniac from the very beginning and without fail for 20+ years, some concessions had to be made. So far, I think it has worked out reasobably well even though I nitpick. If Uncle George steam rolls over the existing post-RotJ EU with something in the future, then I feel he?s gone WAY to far.

    I would suggest that you also stopped the Marvel series prior to the ESB adaptation issues (#39-#45), which were part of the ongoing series.

    Yes, I had them all up until twenty-something when I must have lost interest ... just like a lot of people, evidently.

    My original statement: "I remember thinking the TV specials were an embarrassing joke ... even as a grade schooler.?

    Genghis: ?You thought they were a joke because you were probably too old to appreciate them for their target audience.?

    But I was in GRADE SHOOL (5th or 6th grade) and you just told me that you thought I was the perfect age for such things? Truth is, they were fairly silly and poorly thought out ... just as a lot of TV was at the time. No big deal either way.

    Genghis: ?Parents and children, however, still find them good family fare.?

    Um, no they don?t, most parents and children aren?t even aware of them and probably couldn?t find them even if they wanted to.

    My original quote: "SW was totally in the doldrums until "Heir to the Empire" came along and revived it."

    Genghis: ?Quite probably because you weren't a role-playing gamer.?

    You are right, I wasn?t a role-playing gamer ... nor are many people, actually. This is a VERY narrow niche of fandom and pertains to VERY few people ... especially when compared to the amount of people who watched the movies or even those who have read the first Zahn trilogy. I remember trying to sell my collection in either 1990 or 1991 and the comic shop in suburban Chicago told me that, with essentially no interest in Star Wars at the time, so they weren?t worth anything. I still have them today ... somewhere. I think I last re-read them in the early-mid nineties.
    Genghis: ?(Aleja), you've already contradicted yourself on that very issue in the past ... You weren't there, not by a long shot, nor do you have any idea of the things Bror and I were discussing.?

    Hold on Genghis, I?ve met Aleja in real life and I?m pretty sure she WAS there and she struck me as pretty knowledgeable regarding early SW fandom. If she has contradicted herself, I haven?t yet seen it yet.

    Also, I agree with DL on this. I remember reading something about the division among the folks at Lucasfilm where most wanted to consider the Marvel story an ?Alternate Universe? or something. I?ll have to find that article and see when it was written, who wrote it and EXACTLY what it said.
  22. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Darth Ludicrous...
    I should note you just posted contradctory definitions of "recent."

    "Secrets of Shadows of the Empire i badly outdated, Mastage. And back when it was current I paged through it and thought it laughably deficient in any real actual data.."

    DL, "Secrets of Shadows of the Empire" was published in 1996, not badly outdated by any means. It has actual accounts of the people in charge of defining what makes up the Star Wars saga, including Marvel comic, specifically. The whole first part of the book, "The Expanding Universe" is not about SotE specifically, but about the whole Star Wars EU franchise in general. In fact, it is one of the best behind the scenes looks at the whole process - relevent today because the same Lucasfilm Licensing people are still around.

    "And trust me on this, Ghengis, Marvel's inclusion on the timeline is a *very* recent development."

    Okay, so you say something 4 years old is _BADLY OUTDATED_ yet say Marvel's inclusion in the timeline is *VERY* recent!?!

    Marvel has always been included on and off where relevent going back at least nearly a decade. I will admit that West End Games tended to include a number of them (going back to at least 1993 and older). It was reinforced that Marvel comics was part of the series by being highlighted in such things as the Art of Star Wars non-fiction book, etc. The inclusion of Marvel (as well as the other existing continuity items") is by no means a recent development.
  23. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    If only I could get sources to post, if only.

    Ghengis, Marvel's direct inclusion has only happened within the last two years.
    West End Games' Marvel references were to aliens and places, not the stories. Luke and Leia existed in both Marvel and the regular continuity, so why not Valance and Hoojibs, even if the stories concerning them may not have happened?
  24. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    Genghis, lollipop, you obviously haven't finished your cookie 'cause you're still in a very cantankerous mood -- you even completely misunderstood the words "everyone ELSE." Gosh, and Shira Brie cookie cutters were used and everything!

    Cheer up, little buckaroo! Turn that frown upside down!

    And DL is right. Unless you have concrete proof to the contrary, I suggest this is another one of those pesky perception problems. Since DL's inside info, as much as I like to give him a hard time about it :), is usually right on the nose - well, I trust his perception.

    But the Shadows source book isn't it, since it was published AFTER HttE.
  25. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Aleja,
    It's been fun yet again - you've given me yet another good laugh. But, getting back to the point of whether or not including existing Star Wars continuity is a recent event or note (which includes not only Marvel, but a whole host of items)...

    "And DL is right. Unless you have concrete proof to the contrary, I suggest this is another one of those pesky perception problems."

    Well, yes I do. The concrete proof is none other than Allan Kausch, the Continuity Editor for Lucasfilm Licensing:

    "Even the LucasArts interactive games have a premise, a backstory with player characters thet we're trying to tie into the overall continuity."

    I'm not going to debate language construction here and I recommend that as Mastadge said earlier, you track down the source for yourself. However, the "even" is taken in the context of Kausch's just prior statement about marginal items (specifically addressing Marvel's place and alluding that LucasArts games are the most marginal of all) - that is, no matter _HOW_ marginal something is, it still is tied into the overall continuity. There's a whole section regarding the expanded universe which I'm not going to reproduce here.

    Since you do seem interested in the subject, I suggest you stick to official sources for your information. You said you could read, so I suggest you try those skills out.

    DL & Aleja, I'm sure DL may have some sort of divine inspiration about inside info, but when it comes to hard facts - I'll side with the official record.

    If there's any further doubt, the non-fiction reference books,
    "Guide to the Star Wars Universe" (1984, 1994, 2000), "Art of Star Wars (1979), Star Wars Chronicles (1997), etc.

    include everything from Marvel, the newspaper comic, the Holiday Special, the Droids cartoons, the Ewok movies, etc. as all being a part of the Star Wars saga.

    Since Lucy Wilson, the one ultimately responsible for the licensed products (such as Marvel, the Bantam novels, etc.) has been in her position since the beginning, I'd suggest that there's more a reason to believe that the unification of the "expanded" universe which has gone on _SINCE_ 1977 is not anything new. There's just too many official references to the contrary.
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