Are the NJO books *that* bad?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Dark_Soldier, Dec 29, 2000.

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  1. ShugNinx123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 1
    what proof genghis

    I read through the thread and I didnt see it. maybe I missed something. But a statement about West end games doesn't include Marvel.

    i think its nice that West end games tipped thier hat to marvel with the Tagge name but thats like saying ET is a Star Wars film b/c Lucas included a cameo in the Phantom Menance of the ET aliens.

  2. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Shug...
    First off, I'll ignore some of your earlier misinterpretations of the issues I raised. No need to start things up since they quieted down some.

    However, if you missed the earlier proof, then it seems you probably missed a large majority of this thread. "Proof" that the older material is part of the continuity (all of which are pre-Bantam or Bantam era). I posted publishing dates when possible earlier in this thread where the proof was supplied, yet missed by you it seems. A (by no means complete) listing of a few items...

    Real Proof
    1. Non-Fiction References
    A. Art of Star Wars (showcases a number of early Marvel covers) released in several editions over many years
    B. Essential Guide to Characters
    C. Essential Chronology
    D. A Guide to Star Wars Universe (all three editions released over a twenty-year period)
    E. Secrets of Shadows of the Empire, a whole part about what is part of the Star Wars continuity - must read for anyone interested in this topic.

    2. In-Character Proof (actual continuity links)
    A. Planets of the Galaxy and Planets Collection
    B. Han Solo and Corporate Sector Sourcebook
    C. Star Wars RPG, 2nd R+E rulebook
    D. Star Wars Galaxy Magazine
    E. Dark Horse Comics, TEoD
    F. Essential Chronology, "in-story" segments

    However, as Mastadge said much, much earlier - everyone go get Secrets of Shadows of the Empire. If someone is truly interested in this whole subject, it is going to take a small bit of work and reading on your part.

    However, "Secrets" more than anything else goes a long way to detailing LFL's policy during "Bantam's era." After all, the whole first few chapters detail the "general" process by which a product becomes a Star Wars product then it specifically gets into the SotE background.

    All of the other items simply prove that the older stuff is part of the continuity by simply being a part of the continuity.

    The sheer volume of continuity linkages precludes any reasonable person from reproducing them all here. If you're interested, you'll go check them out. If you're not interested in it, yet like arguing as is the case with a few people here, you'll probably ignore them and still try and talk on the subject.
  3. ShugNinx123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 1
    look bro, all I was doing is asking for info.

    Thanks for the list of information - i tend to bail out on overally long posts so like i said I missed it. I still don't think what you listed is proof. Its just what you think it means. I still don't see any statement from Lucas which to me would be "proof." BUt thats me.

    Maybe if you lost the 'tude the info wouldn't be so buried. Like I said I just wanted to know.

    Peace out.
  4. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Shug...
    "look bro, all I was doing is asking for info."

    Well, you did do a _little_ bit more than ask for information a bit earlier. In fact, just so there's no further misinterpretation, I'll clarify (I apologize in advance for the length ;)...
    "just liek you did in the Mara jade Fan club thread, which was pretty damn funny too."

    I wasn't the one that blew up there - it was that TK guy who went nuts. I just corrected him on a few things.

    "You might want to watch your own logic however because you putdown Darth Ludricrous's claim of talking to fans online and then you counter with how many fans you talk to online."

    It wasn't Darth Ludicrous, it was Bror. I didn't put down the number of people he talked to, I pointed out that his claim that I'm the only one who likes the stuff was flat wrong. In fact, some of those other people jumped in here proving my point.

    "That's a pissing contest neither one of you is going to win. If you don't like his claims then don't counter with the exact same example."

    I wholyy believe that he's spoken with hundreds if not a thousand people on-line. After all, I know of some SW web site owners who are in contact with much, much more than probably either him or me.

    "And you always say many people feel like you but people here on the forum obviously dont feel that way so relaly what do you expect people here to say? Maybe you should point people to these other forums where you hang out like the soul of the jedi people do so people here can read other forums and see for themselves."

    I point to this thread - I am not the only one who likes Marvel as Bror claimed. I'm not going to point to all of them, because there's too many. As moderator, DL should know, since he's been a part of them as well.

    "As for crapping all over threads man that's what some people think you do whenever someone brings up mara by bringing up Shira brei so you really need to make sure your not throwing bricks in a glass house, know what I mean."

    Yeah I know. However, I could respect someone's point of view had they actually contributed to a discussion. I may not agree with either DL or Bror's ideas, but they contribute. That's as opposed to others who didn't. If someone's going to troll and resort to personal attacks, they should be prepared for a defense against such nonsense.

    "unless you can provide some specific quote pertaining to the marvel stuff or have Alan Karaush appear in the thread be prepared to be hammered by others because it all a matter of what people read into things written years and years ago and who really cares now anyway?"

    Well, I've provided the sources for people to check on their own. If it were a few lines like Bror's example, I'd be more than happy - however, there's so much more proof. However, if someone doesn't believe or agree something, I would encourage them to go to the source as opposed to taking something on face value. As for who cares, obviously there's some people here who do.

    "Thanks for the list of information - i tend to bail out on overally long posts so like i said I missed it."

    No problem, I actually wouldn't expect anyone but the die-hards interested in the whole discussion to read it all.

    "I still don't think what you listed is proof. Its just what you think it means."

    Not necessarily. There's no subjectivity involved if something "is part" of continuity or not. Either it's there or it isn't. The whole "in-story" references prove it beyond any reasonable doubt that "it's there." However, tI admit that it doesn't answer anything about specifics of LFL's official "policy" on the matter. It only proves the end result that it's their policy to include the material. For the actual policy, really only the non-fiction material works, and there's a whole bunch of that as well.

    "I still don't see any statement from Lucas which to me would be "proof." BUt thats me."

    Lucas has made very "few" statements about the EU, it's not his thing. It's his company's thing. While George is ultimately in charge of all things
  5. ShugNinx123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 1
    its cool, genghis, but it seems you like to see things only your way. But thats not the only way and sometimes you act like you forget that. For example i saw you in the mara jade Fan Club thread as totally overreacting and going off like a nuclear reactor for absolutely no reason. I thought TK was reasonable. TK even tried to PM you and straighten things out, he was being serious and wanted to know what he said wrong. But you flamed an entire thread instead. Props to them for not reacting back. As for being a troll well again dont say things you can't say to your own mirror. Dont forget people lurk and can make up thier own minds.

    Peace out.
  6. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Shug...
    "its cool, genghis, but it seems you like to see things only your way. But thats not the only way and sometimes you act like you forget that."

    I haven't forgotten. But, you're also ignoring that the other ways aren't always the right way, either.

    "For example i saw you in the mara jade Fan Club thread as totally overreacting and going off like a nuclear reactor for absolutely no reason."

    However, there absolutely is a reason when someone starts off personal flames and rantings for "absolutely no reason."

    "I thought TK was reasonable. TK even tried to PM you and straighten things out, he was being serious and wanted to know what he said wrong."

    I thought he was less than reasonable and told him so. That's reasonable.

    "But you flamed an entire thread instead."

    That's only after he kept things up for several more posts. He got the 1st for free - he's entitled to a rant now and then, any more than that is unacceptable.

    "As for being a troll well again dont say things you can't say to your own mirror."

    I don't.

    "Dont forget people lurk and can make up thier own minds."

    I know. They're not the ones I'm concerned about when it comes to the serious topics around here. It's the ones who can't make up their own minds and rely on the popular/mob/peer pressure mentality that tend to annoy me - the ones who can take the time to fire off a several hundred word long rant, yet can't be bothered to get the facts straight. I usually tend to ignore them except in cases where the sheer volume or magnitude of misinformation more than justifies involvement.
  7. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    There was once a plan to bring *select* Marvel stories into the timeline by reprinting them by Dark Horse. That was started by The Vandelhelm Mission. It was specifically reprointed from Marvel because it did not hurt the continuity it was reprinted into. Apparently this plan fell by the wayside because the only other Marvel reprints after that were the Galaxy Far Far Away books which were more like prestige collectors items than story additions because their print was so restricted. Personally, I'venever even seen one... and yet my comic shop still has unsold copies of Dylan Dog on the shelf.
  8. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    I like the new look of your name, DL...
    it doesn't have a silly "_" in it. :D
  9. bterrik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2001
    star 4
    This is the best dang Star Wars series I have ever read! Just went through Balance Point in 1 DAY!
  10. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    AniSS, you liked the Marvel comics? Why am I not surprised. I remember them being so-so at best ... even though I was at a perfect-for-comics age and was starved for SW material at the time.

    Genghis, OK, you win. The Marvel series is the REAL EU while everything else that has come since is just a bunch of interloper nonsense ... except for the NJO where things got back on track ... FINALLY!

    As long as YOU believe that, I guess that's what counts. Forget about the fact that probably less than 1% of people who are Star Wars fans (to some degree or another) are even aware of the Marvel comic series and can't become so because they are, for the most part, unavailable. That doesn't matter.

    What matters is that you and a handful of old-time, hard-core fans have these unimpressive, soon to be forgotten stories acknowledged in one insignificant form or another. Well, you got your wish.
  11. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Man, can't you just feel the love here...

    Bror...
    "Genghis, OK, you win. The Marvel series is the REAL EU while everything else that has come since is just a bunch of interloper nonsense ... except for the NJO where things got back on track ... FINALLY!"

    I'll agree with you to some extent. I probably wouldn't used such strong language, after all the Bantam era was just another chapter in the EU.

    As far as whether it's 1% or not, I can see where you'd get your numbers since you thought I was the only one in the thousands you talked to - but we know how inaccurate that was.

    To recap my opinion on this whole thing, since it got lost to the side discussion...
    No, I don't think the NJO was *THAT* bad. On the contrary, the quality isn't any better or worse as a whole than the other SW products that have come out over the years.
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    [WARNING - RANT MODE ON]

    The only reason I took the time to dig this thread up was because a few people had such strong, incorrect views on things, and in fact attacked me personally based on those incorrect views. I think some important issues raised in this thread beg to be revisited now that we have actual 100% bona fide LFL opinion on the matter. Specifically, the issue was Marvel's place in continuity in the past...

    The answer is from Lucasfilm itself - the owner of Star Wars and the Star Wars EU...
    "For an answer, we went to Lucasfilm's own Ben Harper for a tell-all spectacular.
    Ben says:
    Good question! We have never disavowed the existence of Marvel comics. We have, whenever feasible included important events and characters from the Marvel comics in our other products. Some of the Marvel storylines before anyone knew what would happen in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Obviously, in many places, those films contradicted what had happened in the comics. Which ones are more important? The films of course. However, Lucasfilm recognizes the creativity and diversity within the Marvel comics, and feels there is a place within the Star Wars universe for non-continuity events. You'll notice that ***books recognized as Star Wars canon are marked with Era symbols*** (so you'll know where they fall within the Star Wars timeline). The non-continuity books (at this point, the Dark Horse Star Wars Tales and Infinities: A New Hope comics) will soon be marked with a non-continuity symbol. ***Elements from Marvel which do not tread upon that which has been estalished in the films, novels, comics, et cetera, are being integrated into OFFICIAL STAR WARS CANON*** because we like them, they're cool, the aliens will be fun to use in the RPG, and, well, we were just feeling a bit nostalgic. After all, it's been over 20 years!"

    Now, in light of actual proof of what I've been saying all along (which is generally known to most people who have been a part of it since the beginning), I figured I would point out some of the most absurd, incorrect ideas that people have had regarding Marvel's place in the continuity over time.

    Remember, this is not an attack against anyone. It is in fact for their benefit, that hopefully people will learn about their mistaken view. I haven't listed names, since there's no reason to rub anyone's nose in things, and they're all in this thread for those who want to dig a bit. Remember, now, in the context of it's place in continuity, Lucasfilm has _NEVER_ disavowed Marvel's existence. Never, being a long time. In this case, going all the back to Marvel's creation in 1976:

    1."in 1991 was The novels were NOT supposed to be interconnected with the Marvel comics. Marvel was deliberitely ignored because they are dumb. Adding the Marvel to the continuity is a fairly recent event."

    2."Ghengis.. true, Marvel was the continuation... but then it was decided to drop it and start completely fresh with a clean slate with the Thrawn Trilogy... Why LFL went back on that decision is beyond me, however."

    3. "Ghengis, I could just as easily ask if you hd a memo that says that the Bantam novels are a continuation of the Marvel comics.
    I've already pointed out to you, Ghengis that when Kathy Tyers was contracted to write Truce at Bakura, LFL told her to set it directly after Return of the Jedi, and to include nasty, and at that time, extra-galactic invaders. This is in *direct* contradiction of Marvel comics which were already set in that time period with that story element. Direct Contradiction. In other words, LFL was writing over Marvel claim to continuity. And that is the truth. Now somewhere down the line, someone, some Marvel fan at LFL, decided it would be better to cram Marvel into the now crowded timeline wholesale and come up with some explanation, some continuity shoehorn(which I still haven't heard) to make it all fit."

    4. "And trust me on this, Ghengis, Marvel's inclusion on the timeline is a *very* recent development. After Dark Empire's publication, it was decided
  13. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Here's an interesting way of looking at it.

    Done by C-3PO and R2-D2.

    C-3PO: I don't understand why we have to defend Marvel here, we didn't even....

    R2: BOOOP VOOP

    3PO: Yes R2 I realize that Dark Horse was a bit silly to us but so was our cartoon show.

    R2: Veep boop veep whoop

    3PO: Oh now your just being silly.

    R2: BOooooooooop

    3PO: Well its quite simple that really Marvel Comics was an early attempt to expand on the story provided by my Creator.

    R2: Weep weep?

    3PO: No not Master Anakin R2. It really is a small galaxy. I mean George Lucas.

    R2: Ooooooo

    3PO: Marvel comics showed an excellent "track record", which I find most linquistically perplexing, on telling fun action adventure stories with alittle character development but not significantly much.

    R2: VEEEP BOOP!

    3PO: Spiderman doesn't count R2 and really it took quite a long tome for him to get married.

    r2: Click click

    3PO: In any case a significant number of events and serious stories were told by Stan lee and his delightful if dishevelled crew including the retaking of Cloud City, the Uprising of Baron Tagge, the Tarkin episode...

    r2: ttoopp topp?

    3PO: I mean the super weapon R2 and I know you helped destroy them all.

    r2: wppppp

    3PO: Don't get pointy, I'm sure the audience does too. A poignant tale regarding Princess Leia and answering the question of what about Alderanians who served the Empire, the poor Luminya woman who was meant really as the love/foe of Master Luke's life...well after Princess leia...and well before Miss Gariel, Callista, and Mistress Jade. Also the Nagai episode which was very good until the Toffs arrived...

    r2: WEp boop veepp ggiib viib boo.

    3PO: Actually I was saying they were fearsome....and don't you start how the fact they were green pirates made the threat look silly again.

    r2: Bwwwap

    3PO: In any case Marvel comics tried to maintain a careful balance between humor, action/adventure, drama, and to some extent romance in the fictional....

    R2: VPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP?!

    3PO: Yes r2, fictional. Star Wars universe. For the most part they performed a very good job with the mix being complete but suffering somewhat because of several infamous storylines.

    r2: <sounds like laughing>

    3PO: The Ewolks vs. the Lashbees were one that comes to mind due to the fact they're enemies were bureaucrats, with the Empire dead the threat seemed a tad....insulting to Star Wars purists and that the Republic would...well go to war over two such tribes hashing it out like men.

    r2: wink wink

    3PO: Oh be quiet, I believe it's perfectly natural for two sapients to fight a duel if barbaric.....and I am far away....comfortable...with an oil bath. OH SWITCH OFF. Other storylines include the Magnificent Seven which was so insanely farsical and deliberately ridiculous with it's rip of Don Quioxte, Female and Masculine steorotypes...well I won't go on but needless to day having them face a creature resembling Godzilla likely turned a few fans off.

    r2: hhhhheup

    c3PO: I know he was scary! Ugh in any case the comics were quite fitting with the spirit of the movies and if not as "realistically drawn" as Dark horse or the classic star wars comic strip it should be noted that both had their "off days" as well with the Jabba the Hutt series...which while occasionally amusing was mostly gratiously violent. The Bounty on Bar Kooda and the Fat Lady swings which made a mockery of that impressive if a tad violent fellow Boba Fett not to mention our own droids comics whose art in every way surpassed marvels for ugliness.

    r2: Veep

    C3PO: Oh shush I realize you think you can't be drawn badly but it's not true! The plots were ridiculous too....mmph. I will not and never have headed a swoop gang of outlaw cooks! It's against my programming!

    r2: Veep

    c3PO: Yes I'm sure the Grand General is dead r2 and the trash eating droid...now lets get back to NJO....

    r2: Vpp?

    c3po: Actually your probably right, I'd much rather stay here and answer questions, any chance I might do so?
  14. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Genghis:

    You're five paces away from becoming the Marcvs Porcivs Cato of the Literature Forum.
  15. Asyr Handor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 1999
    star 4
    The NJO books are one of the best series of Star Wars books printed so far. :)
  16. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Casta...
    "You're five paces away from becoming the Marcvs Porcivs Cato of the Literature Forum."

    Well, the height of absurdity of Scipio and Scipio the Elder have only been matched by the height of absurdity of my opponents here on this issue.

    "Carthage must be destroyed?" I would say I do not have such ambitions. I am simply satisfied with the recognition of Marvel's place in history and its importance in filling in a significant time period of the OT. Do I feel the need to do more? As a fan of all of the EU, I recognize that to destroy that which does not include Marvel would be just as bad as not including Marvel. No, "Carthage does not need to be destroyed."

    Perhaps you are right to a point, but then again, perhaps not. :)
  17. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Haven't you seen Gladiator? The barbarian horde won...

    nevermind
  18. JediDavex Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2001
    star 4
    Ive been meaning to check out these books, but i dont have the money...
  19. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    That was a poor compliment to the Scipios. I never think that those who crossed swords with you absurd, nor were the Scipios.

    Without them, one would not have seen "the grandeur that was Rome." The Eternal City would have just remained as one hidebound republic who drew its strength from the immemorial, calcified traditions of its ancestors.

    You simply missed the whole joke about Marcvs Porcivs Cato. To interpret such in a historical context would be ridiculous. The point is not about "Delenda est Carthago". Cato has nothing to do with destruction. It is about the dourness of a die-hard who has chanted his slogan about five million times in an anti-waste campaign.

    Mastadge: One thing I don't get about Gladiator is why the protagonist's name is Maximus, considering Maximus is generally not used as a nomen or cognomen, but as an agnomen.
  20. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    And there was no chance at that point that Marcus Aurelias wanted to reform the senate, and I'm not sure but I don't think there was even a spain back then. The land was there but I'm pretty sure it wasn't called that then.
  21. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Spain was a Roman province long before Avgvstvs' advent--well, a colllective of tribal hordes. I know a Spanish Sword is called gladius hispannicus, and though I don't know Latin, I guses Spain must be something similar like Hispania back then.

    I hope that the Gladiator does not get the Oscars tonight. Frankly speaking, it was no more than a grandiose pageant.
  22. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    They are not degrading if one does not agree with the glory that was Rome in Scipio's time. While one cannot argue with the results that Rome produced - engineering marvels, military amazements and what-not. As an institution, Rome ceased being glorious.

    Those who decried such glory and stood for conservative values and especially like the value of women beyond mere sex objects like Cato stood for were attempting to gain back the glory which Rome once had.
  23. Casta Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2000
    star 4
    Cato? He treated his wife no better than his slave--or are you just reading Mommsen too much? Was he interested in justice in governing? No. He was merely drawn to stem the tide of the inevitable.

    I'll say it again--the Scipios are not absurd. The whole we-shall-stay-in-Italy policy was rendered obsolete by Hannibal's invasion. Morality has little to do with absurdity. The whole image of Roman grandeur has less to do with the Republican institution than with the organic unity it has brought to the Meditteranean world.

    After all, who would call a myopic, puritanical institution devoid of imagination "grand" or "glorious"? Or a system that does its best, or worst, to reduce genius to mediocrity and to politely level everything out? Cato was no more than the boring product of this system

    The Eternal City had little civilization until after the First Punic War. The Romans had the wit of a lead dagger and were sturdy as hoplites. Have you wondered why they were mauled by Hannibal on the field and ridiculed by the Greeks in the East as semi-barbarians?

    That was a really poor compliment to your opponents.
  24. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Casta...
    "Cato? He treated his wife no better than his slave--or are you just reading Mommsen too much?"

    So, you disregard one "flawed" view of history for your another flawed view of history - unacceptable. Cato's position as a defender of women in the Roman culture is solid. One's own critical views on the role of women in marriage is something entirely different, whether it is your own or Cato's. However, I also never said he was perfect...

    "Morality has little to do with absurdity. The whole image of Roman grandeur has less to do with the Republican institution than with the organic unity it has brought to the Meditteranean world."

    Cato's actions of causing the Scipio's downfall had most to do with morality rather than absurdidty. However, it is absurd to call on the "glory" of the United Stated of America by pointing to the XFL and WWF. Cato's view was that Rome could be glorious without its own self-degradation.

    I suppose you were partially correct in making the parallel - history has vindicated Cato much like history has vindicated Marvel. :)

  25. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    Ghengis,
    Take a good, look at the EU. There has been *no* effort to tie the Marvel Comics? events or characters into the stories that have been produced in the last 10 years. This speaks louder than any fan argument on this board or interview with some paid mouthpiece ever could.

    Face it, that all-but-forgotten series is merely an answer or two in some extreme SW trivia contest. How good could they have been if they disappeared due to lack of interest? Why was the decision made by LFL to start fresh after RotJ with a completely unrelated storyline if the Marvel stuff was so good, so important? (These are rhetorical questions in case you didn?t know.)

    Ghengis, The quote you found proves one thing: That Star Wars is old enough, large enough and has enough ?official? people involved with it that you can find a bit of published text that backs up just about any absurd position a fan could take ...

    ... and because you found just such a passage, I hereby present you with this faux plastic, gold spray-painted Don Quixote award for bizarre actions above and beyond the call of eccentricity in the pursuit of a completely pointless, lost cause ... Congratulations!

    *the crowd goes wild*

    (Cue musical fanfare: Maria Carey?s ?Hero? followed by Patsy Cline?s classic ?Crazy?)
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