Discussion in 'Literature' started by Dark_Soldier, Dec 29, 2000.
Then you WILL be listing these references for those of us who don't believe there are such things?
No - because it's already been done. If you care enough about them, then you can take the time and effort. You tell them to me, and I'll see if you have them.
The list won't be produced because it can't be produced.
If people wish to remain ignorant, that's their problem not mine. The lack of listing the items has nothing to do with their existence. What you ask is too much work, because there's too many to list for people who are just trolling for their own benefit.
If you care to know what LFL's opinion of Marvel is, refer to their statement I reproduced here in this thread.
If you have any questions regarding Marvel's past and present situation after that, you may possibly be illiterate.
If one is truly interested in educating themselves about some of the past references to Marvel, start with this thread after about page 2 or so (once we moved to this topic) - a few are mentioned here.
Here's a list of several references to Marvel, not including the references in Agents of Chaos (a good part of Hero's Trial takes place, as I recall, on The Wheel)...
The list does include a few references in the Bantam novels (specifically, the Han Solo trilogy) and several in the Dark Horse comics.
Everyone can read what LFL says in their statement. That LFL statement has nothing to do with creating a list of references. The statement and the list are two separate and independent items that are totally unrelated. No one is asking for a comprehensive database of every single minute reference. No list. No proof.
EDIT: AniSS posted his link while I was writing my post.
So what was that link about? You wanted a list, there's a list.
Unrelated? JF, are you for real? The question is whether or not LFL disavowed Marvel and/or included it in continuity. LFL statement proves they never disavowed it, and they always tried to include it where appropriate. There's been past cases where it was appropriate and it has been included.
Whether or not those references exist has nothing to do with LFL's policy regarding Marvel. The fact that they do exist simply reinforces it, nothing more. It also doesn't have anything to do with whether you recognize it or not. You can (and some still are) deny they exist, and you'd be wrong.
"No one is asking for a comprehensive database of every single minute reference."
Then if that's the case, there's references in Boba Fett: Twin Engines of Destruction, the Essential Chronology (a rather all-encompassing comprehensive database of nearly every single reference), Star Wars Gamer #1. A novel one has been mentioned a few posts back.
I doubt even a comprehensive listing will dissuade people from their delusional world where Marvel is disavowed. Now, if the regular few people choose to continue looking like their ignorant, you can continue to ignore LFL's statement. However, it's funny because it simply reinforces what LFL Editor Allan Kausch is on record as saying in 1995 - Marvel is part of the continuity. If you want to see it word for word, it's in Secrets of Shadows of the Empire, 1995.
Like I joked about, I think some people want George Lucas to come tell them in person what LFL has already said. That's really just plain silly. It's time to grow up and get over your denial.
"And if Marvel was so important in terms of continuity, why is the depiction of Kessel so radically different in Marvel and JAT?"
I don't know were I read it but dan wallace of EC, guide to planets, etc, purposed a continuity fix having to deal with the empire working on plants that could work on harsh enviroment's. Part of the experiment resulted in an ecodisaster to kessel sometime between Marvel And JAT. Which destroyed the fungus cities, and left craters, basically reshaped the planet.
One thing that does seem to be the same between old kessel and new kessel is that the skies are the same color.
No Genghis, the question is "Can you produce a list of Marvel *character* references in the books?"
I am not denying the LFL statement in SW Gamer #3. I am not in a River in Egypt.
I checked that list in the link provided by AniSS ...
There are no explicit references to Marvel characters and events that go beyond name dropping by Luceno, or Luceno using a character previously created by his former writing partner, Brian Daley.
And before you jump on me any further, I am talking about references in novels -- not WEG or WOTC RPG materials, not Essential Guides, not reprinted comics.
What's the point?.... you want to hear the name of thrawn, isard, szinj, drochs, ect ect. In every freakin book. Refrences aren't need to prove or disaprove an importance or validity of a series. That's up to lfl to decide, we know their descision.
If we had it your way, we would get books full of cameos, refrences, and throw away lines back to older sources with very little plot. It would be very boring, and very limited. "OOh, the next villain can be traced back to thrawn, oooh, what a small galaxy" "thrawn is cool" "oooh", that is what you would get out of fanboy gushers, if refrences were thrown out about every little thing.
But if LFL embraces Marvel as much as these statements indicate, why are references to more considerable references beyond name-dropping confined to RPG sourcebooks or DH comics?
My aversion for the comics is well known, but I have a considerable deal of respect for the work that WEG did and hopefully WotC will continue to churn out a quality product, although I have some reservations about their methods of converting characters and the stats they've assigned to characters profiled in the Core Rulebook, but that is irrelevant to this topic.
The simple fact is that the RPG sourcebooks and the comics are read by a smaller sub-segment of the fan-base which reads the novels. And most fans probably don't even remember those Marvel comics.
"...events that go beyond name dropping by Luceno..."
I'll take that as your recognition that name-dropping of Marvel exists in the novels. (It does, btw, whether you knew of it or not). If that's that case, one wonders what your point is in arguing your lost cause?
"But if LFL embraces Marvel as much as these statements indicate, why are references to more considerable references beyond name-dropping confined to RPG sourcebooks or DH comics..."
But, GAW, the fact that WEG includes them speaks volumes of their importance. One could argue their own opinion of them all day. However, nearly every single Bantam author has recognized WEG's importance to the "universe." One of LFL's key mandates was that every novel had to be written in accordance with the foundations set by that source. In that regard, WEG is much more "important" to the expanded universe than any novel which tells a story of a character or small group of characters.
It is much more important that the
"father of the modern EU" recognized Marvel and again, simply reinforces the view which LFL has had.
The Star Wars franchise is a shared universe made up of nearly every media available. While some wish it was different, the novels are but a small part of the franchise universe. Marvel _IS_ referenced in most of those media - anything - from the novels, to reference books (Essential guides,etc.) , to role-playing games, comic books. Even some novel creations can't say the same.
I think you've confused popularity with quality or importance. Just because WEG's SWRPG may not be as widespread as the novels, doesn't mean it is any less important. The fact is, that LFL used it as a "bible" for authors to show them what Star Wars is all about. In forming foundations of the universe, it is more important than even the more popular Thrawn Trilogy. I'd be happy to provide segments from Zahn acknowledging as much.
I never said name droppings didn't occur. Tanith Shire in HT is a prime example of a Luceno Marvel name dropping incident.
If anyone (Genghis, Jared, Valento, Anakin Sky) can show me an example of an original Marvel character that was subsequently used as a minor or major character (ie has scenes and interacts with other characters) in a novel (BDD or DR) that is more than a name-dropping reference, I will give up my so-called "lost cause" and admit I was wrong.
(WEG materials, comic books, short stories, essential guides, and encyclopedia's don't count, as I recognize that they include obscure characters from all sources.)
Prove me wrong with regards to novels. One example and I'll admit I was wrong.
Until then, flaming me says more about you than it does about me.
*Digs out the Marvel comics, reads through them*
*Reads through the Bantam books*
Nope, zilch, nada. IMHO, no explicit references to Marvel continuity aside from name-dropping without any frame of reference. No building upon events in Marvel comics. No building upon characters (or characterization) from the Marvel comics.
And still waiting to be proved wrong...if it can be done. Methinks I'll be waiting a long, LONG time.
I warned people about spelling my name wrong see, my sig, I get really upset.
Now onto another point, i'm sorry I haven't had the pleasure of reading marvel. Nore will have until DH decides to rerelease them in TPBs.
So can't help you with references.
But I can tell you this much from What I know about, with a few short stories that reference marvel, The EC that shows how marvel fits into the timeline etc, I'm willing to accept it. Even if I dislike a story, I will still accept because someone out their took the time to write it, and it was deemed good enough to release, and as long as LFL still validfies it. I won't argue with it. Now if they, LFL, came back and flat out said marvel is infinities I would have to change my oppinions of marvel. But since it's been validified by lfl's own words in many articles, that is enough for me. Well if I don't like it I am not forced to read it now am I?
Besides what's it going to hurt to add in a few more stories? You may never read them, but it's not going to mess with star wars in the full scheme of things. It's pointless to complain about. I would be more willing to complain about DH polices against Tales comics than importance of marvel.
If something was to show up in the future, for istance the return of nagai, lumiya, tofs, etc. Well I would say cool and go along with the flow.
Jade's Fire & Aleja -
You don't have a leg to stand on. The fact that you have both conceded is that the _N O V E L S_ even reference Marvel.
I'm sure each person has a different opinion of what a reference "should" entail. But the undisputable fact is that they exist.
What was your point again? Do the novels have references to Marvel? Yes. Can someone come up with such an absurdly narrow definition to dismiss any SW item? Sure.
If it's your point that novels do not reference Marvel then you're wrong. Clearly they have been proven to do so.
Are the Marvel comics important enough to the overall SW storyline for me to bother finding out what is in them?
Are there Marvel characters important enough to a novel for me to wonder about them and who they really are ?
Are the Marvel comics worth me caring about?
"Are the Marvel comics important enough to the overall SW storyline for me to bother finding out what is in them?"
Is x-wing series important in the full scheme of things? do you still enjoy them?
"Are there Marvel characters important enough to a novel for me to wonder about them and who they really are?"
Are many x-wing characters important enough to the rest of the series to wonder about them and know who they really are?
"Are the Marvel comics worth me caring about?"
Are x-wing books worth you caring about?
My point is many stories even in the novels aren't required to read, but are still enjoyed by many fans. Even get ignored by other fans. I know many fans that will only touch marvel, because they grew up with it, they don't want to have anything to do with the novels. I know other fans who only play the games to expander their EU, those like me who want everything. etc etc, the list goes on with various who will and who won't read.
When it comes down to it, a stories validity means absoluty nothing if it's on a timeline, if you don't want to read it your not forced to, but you might miss something you may have enjoyed.
Even if you did read and hated it, well, it's not going to hurt you if it's on a timeline in the slightest. Go with the flow and read what you enjoy. I mean you have novels you hate too, don't you? well you understand it's part of the timeline, but that doesn't force you to read them, does it?
Only you know the answer to those.
However, the fact that LFL wishes to clarify their opinion and include them in their products shows that THEY...
1. Are important enough to the overall SW storyline to bother including them in all things "Essential..."
2. Important enough to a novel to get people to wonder about them and who they really are ?
3. Are worth caring about?
Your opinion is only important to you. LFL's opinion is important to all SW fans - that's the difference.
So I guess then that the answer is that the Bantam novels do not build upon the Marvel comics, do not use any characterization advanced in the Marvel comics, and only name drop in the most vague manner possible as a wink-wink, nudge-nudge manner to those that might recognize the references - but otherwise, completely ignore the Marvel comics as a backstory.
Valiento asked some questions in response to my questions.
My Question:"Are the Marvel comics important enough to the overall SW storyline for me to bother finding out what is in them?"
Val's Question: Is x-wing series important in the full scheme of things? do you still enjoy them?
Answer: YES. X-Wings covered the taking of Coruscant by the Rebels. The Bacta War was featured in the YKJ series Diversity Alliance,. An understanding of the Rogues certainly made I Jedi and the Hand of Thrawn more complete.
My New Question: Is there anything in the Marvel comics to compare with these examples?
My Question: "Are there Marvel characters important enough to a novel for me to wonder about them and who they really are?"
Val's Question: Are many x-wing characters important enough to the rest of the series to wonder about them and know who they really are?
Answer:Yes Corran Horn for one. Here's a character introduced in the X-Wing books that has main role in 3 other books and a supporting role in at least 2 more.
Booster and Mirax. Important players in I,Jedi and The Hand of Thrawn. Booster is in the latest NJO book as well.
Wedge and Winter are not X-Wing originals, but the deeper understanding one gets of these two by reading the X-Wing books certainly increases ones enjoyment in reading of them in the mainline books
My New Question: Are there any Marvel originated characters who would compare to even Booster or Mirax?
My Question: "Are the Marvel comics worth me caring about?"
Val's Question: Are x-wing books worth you caring about?
Answer:Yes. Knowing of the Rogues and Wraiths and their exploits in the post RotJ storyline makes the mainline stories even more enjoyable.
Same Old Question: Are the Marvel comics worth me caring about?
I was thinking as I wrote this that had Val asked his questions about The Crystal Star or The New Rebellion rather than the X-wings, I would have answered "no". But then I thought about those two books and, ya know, both of them have ties to the YJK.
Lusa the Centaur girl from CS shows up at the Academy when the Solo Twins are there and joins them in their adventures. And good ol' Brakiss, semi villain of NR, is a major villain in the first set of YJK stories. So even a couple of the lesser Bantam books show up again with-in other novels.
Do any Marvel things make a real appearance in even the YJK or JJK?
Just off hand, I can't think of any of the mainline novels (or the fill-ins and recent kid books - I'm not talking about the Glove of Vader books which are in the same sort of limbo as the Marvel comics) that haven't had some connection, more than just name dropping, in some other book. I could be forgetting some totally forgettable novel, but I don't think so.
I'm always a little bemused by the distinction some people make between Marvel's different comic book products.
All the questions about the relevance of Marvel comic BOOKS don't seem to apply to Marvel comic STRIPS, which certainly preceded Bantam novels by many years, were written by the same people (e.g., Archie Goodwin), and certainly contain events of note.
"Answer: YES. In X-Wings covered the taking of Coruscant by the Rebels, the Bacta War was featured in the YKJ series Diversity Alliance, An understanding of the Rogues certainly made I Jedi and the Hand of Thrawn more complete."
Likewise, in the comic strips are the only place where you will find the evacuation of Yavin and the discovery of Hoth. Two events important, at least in principle, to the films themselves (though obviously you don't need to read the comics to enjoy the movies, or even the movie novels).
With regard to the Bantam novels, Jan Dodonna, who appears to go kaboom when the Rebels are evacuating Yavin, pops up again in Mike Stackpole's X-wing series, very much alive, a prisoner of Isard, and Mr. Stackpole makes reference to the events of the comic strips (the evacuation of Yavin, the fact that Dodonna was left behind, and the obvious consequence of Dodonna being a prisoner of the Empire).
I realize the strips in question were written after Empire (though still before RotJ), but outside of that, I cannot understand why they would be treated differently than the Marvel Comic books--particularly the comics printed after RotJ (that includes the first appearance of the Yinchorr in #86) or those comics printed between ESB and RotJ that flashback to the time before ESB.
Yes, simply more proof as to Marvel's relevance no matter which time period we care to visit.