Are the objections of we Star Wars fans to the prequels completely objective?

I cant help feel that we fans (and the critics also) are simply failing to take into account that we saw the OT as children, and we can never truly return to that sense of wonder. Is the PT genuinely inferior to the OT, in any objective way?

In theory the quality of an artistic or creative effort may be completely subjective, but we have come up with vague ways of measuring films. Almost any intelligent person would agree that Aliens is better than Alien3, and one would find it difficult to create arguments that dispute this.

Are there any arguments we can make to conclude that the OT is genuinely superior to the PT? Or are we simply not watching Lucas's new films in the same light as the originals?



Please don't lock this MODs! I really want to know what people think about this...

 

Typical! The first intelligent post in ages, and nobody responds!

 

I think it just comes down to peoples expectations of the movies. I've been saying this since TPM first came out. People just expect WAAAYYY to much out of Star Wars now. Your memories of watching the OT as a child are not perfect. It's been built up in everyones mind (myself included) until its so great grand and wonderful that nothing will ever top it. Ask someone who's never seen the OT what they think of the PT. (If you can) The few people I know who haven't seen the OT enjoyed both TPM and AOTC very much. It all comes down to your expectations IMHO. Nothing is as good as you remember it to be, especially through the eyes of a child.

 

I concur. Future generations will appreciate the PT more because they won't be forced to see it as instrinsically different, and because they will have the same happy memories of it as they did the OT.


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I disagree.



I think that the position of "too much expecation" is the single largest pile of bull**** that was ever concieved by a horde of fans that were either too loyal to admit the poorness of the PT's quality or too ignorant.

I had the same amount of expectations for TPM as I did for X-Men 2 or for Matrix Reloaded or for Alien: Resurrection or for Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo. I bet those of you playing at home can guess which of those films I enjoyed and which films I didn't.

The only "expectation" I've ever had for any film, including all Star Wars films, is that it entertains, suspends my disbelief, and presents itself with respect to craftsmanship. That is the only "expectations" a movie can have.

The prequel trilogy hasn't let me down by "not meeting my expectations," because that is an arguement that is not even valid. What are "expectations," especially in regard to a Star Wars film? Did I "expect" more ewoks? More scenes with Lando Calrissian? More dancing at Jabba's Palace? More father-child relevations? Hell no. I expected to be entertained. And I wasn't.






As an added bonus, can any of you "your expectations were too high" automatons jot down your reasons why you think this is, and also list what you "know" we were expecting and didn't recieve. I don't know, maybe somewhere I missed something. Maybe Lucas said in an interview somewhere "Hey fellas, you may or may not be entertained by the quality of work with TPM, so don't get your hopes up."

 

I think some people had expectations, whether conscious or subconscious, about what a STAR WARS movie "should" be. When these expectations weren't met, they became upset to varying degrees. It's as simple as that.

 

1BAT4U, you mean to tell me that before TPM came out, you didn't hang out with your friends (if you have any) talking about how cool, great, or "whatever" it will be? Of course you did, everyone did. I'm not trying to say that TPM should've one a hundred oscars or anything, far from it. I know italicized text enjoyed both TPM and AOTC and that's all that matters to me.

I'm not arguing reasons why people did or did not like the movies. Every person has different viewpoints, opinions, and tastes. Thats something that they are entitiled to. I was simply making a point that the OT has been part of many peoples movie-viewing lives for years, I honestly have no memory of my first viewing of any of the OT. It's always just been part of my life, part of growing up. When you grow up watching a movie, any movie, for years and years, you are going to see it in a different light.

OK, think about this. I remember watching the TV show Thundercats when I was a kid. Anyone else remember that show? Anyway, it was my favorite show when I was about 6 or 7 or something. About a year or two ago I saw it on Cartoon Network and I was soooo psyched! My favorite show as a kid on TV again! So I sat down and watched it and was throughly dissapointed. It sucked. I couldn't believe I used to enjoy this. It was not what I expected. Can you see my point now?

Granted I'm comparing Star Wars to some Anime kids show but that's besides the point.

 

Nothing is as good as you remember it to be, especially through the eyes of a child.

Well said.

Ask someone who's never seen the OT what they think of the PT. (If you can) The few people I know who haven't seen the OT enjoyed both TPM and AOTC very much.

Very Interesting piont. For various reasons, I didn't grow up with the OT, my first viewing of it was 6 year ago. To be honest, I wasn't impressed at that time, because the storyline and characters were too simplistic for my taste.

But after watching TPM and AOTC, I fell in love with SW. In my opinion, the PT adds a lot of depth into the whole saga, and elevates the OT to a new level. The 6-movie saga is much more intelligent than the 3-movie trilogy.

I lent my DVD and VCD to some of my friends who'd never seen any SW movie, and asked about their feelings. None of them thought the OT was superior. Some disliked both OT and PT, some prefered TPM and AOTC.

 

Still, my question remains unanswered.

No one has listed anything specific that I probably "expected" from the PT and was let down on.




And when I discussed the upcoming films, way back in 1999, the things my friends and I talked about were things like "I hope we see Jedis kick some ass," or "I think Maul's saber-staff is nifty," not "Wow! I have a huge laundry list of things that Lucas better deliver on or I'll hate Star Wars forever."


Some of you guys . . . sheesh.





Do you actually think of what things mean when you say them?

 

suspends my disbelief

This is your/our responsibility, not the film's.

-Otis

 

For a lot of PT-hating fans, the canon kind of ends with ANH and ESB. If they didn't like the way the story went with ROTJ, then there's no way they'll be able to tolerate TPM, or AOTC, which are further removed (chronologically) from the first two movies.

I think it's because the first one was sort of a stand-alone type movie. Then came ESB, which established that this will indeed be a saga. At that point, the speculation and hype build to a point where nothing can really be satisfactory. When one's assumptions are strongly contradicted, it can be very annoying. So no, I don't think most objections to the PT are fair.

It's odd; there's a lot of people who spend time on these boards, discussing Star Wars day in, day out, who really only like two of the five movies. I can't imagine posting in a Star Wars forum if I thought there hadn't been a good addition to the series in 23 years.

 

>>>As an added bonus, can any of you "your expectations were too high" automatons jot down your reasons why you think this is, and also list what you "know" we were expecting and didn't recieve.

Take a look around the boards and see how many complaints you can find that are along the lines of "Anakin was too young", "Obi Wan should have been Qui Gon", "Jar Jar should have been smarter" etc.

Nothing to do with quality, everything to do with what they wanted the story to be.

 

Ask someone who's never seen the OT what they think of the PT. (If you can) The few people I know who haven't seen the OT enjoyed both TPM and AOTC very much.

I have a friend who had never seen a STAR WARS movie before seeing THE PHANTOM MENACE, and now he's a fan of the series. He loves THE PHANTOM MENACE and ATTACK OF THE CLONES, and interestingly enough, his favorite original film is RETURN OF THE JEDI.

I have another friend who never cared much for STAR WARS until seeing ATTACK OF THE CLONES. Now he can't wait for Episode III.

So there ya go.

 

No one has listed anything specific that I probably "expected" from the PT and was let down on.

So now you want us to be mind-readers?

 

I think alot of people are miscontruing the term "expectation" with "critical reaction."

When someone says that "Anakin should have been older," or that "Obi-wan needed more dialogue," or "Liam Neeson was a stiff," that's their critical response to the film. It's NOT an expectation. Now if Lucasfilm issued statements alluding to the fact that Ewan was going to have a large role in TPM, or that Darth Maul was going to have all kinds of screen time, and then Lucasfilm didn't deliver, THAT'S terms for having "expectations."

"Expectations" are THINGS THAT ARE EXPECTED TO HAPPEN.

The only things I expected from either prequel was to see films that were entertaining and well-acted. That's all I ever expect from any movie.




And Otis, you couldn't possibly be more wrong in what you said. That is the single most foolish thing uttered in regards to cinema ever. The film's job is to entertain the audience, not ask the audience to be ignorant for 2 hours. The sole duty of providing enjoyment is the film's responsibility, and no one else's. If the actors and direction of a film can't convince me that what's happening on screen is a concieveable situation, why do I have to do their work for them?







Again, do you people think before such foolish things spring loose from your mouths, or is it an uncontrollable act, not unlike tourettes?

 

>>>When someone says that "Anakin should have been older," or that "Obi-wan needed more dialogue," or "Liam Neeson was a stiff," that's their critical response to the film. It's NOT an expectation.

RE: Liam Neeson- Yes, that's a critical response.
RE: The other two points-how can a characters age be "bad"? How can a character's amount of dialogue or significance to the story be "bad"?


>>>That is the single most foolish thing uttered in regards to cinema ever

>>>Again, do you people think before such foolish things spring loose from your mouths, or is it an uncontrollable act, not unlike tourettes?

#Watches any chance of a civilized conversation in the thread fly out the window...#

 

"Wow! I have a huge laundry list of things that Lucas better deliver on or I'll hate Star Wars forever."

I don't know anyone who ever thought this. When I say expectations I do not mean a conscious thought like "Boba Fett better kill fifteen Jedi!" or something similar. Its a subconscious thing that EVERYONE has whether thy know it or not. Which is why I think AOTC was more well received than TPM. People new what kinda movies the PT was gonna be so therefore were not expecting (conscious thoughts or not) their own childhood memories or imagination to be up there on the screen

As for suspending your disbelief, I happen to think that Otis makes a very strong point. Yes, there are some movies that no mater how hard you try, will never be good, they are just bad. But IMHO the PT are not those movies. It is up to you as an audience to allow your own disbelief to be suspended. No movie can preach to you specifically.

"Hey you! Guy in the 15th row, seat 12! How do you like this??

 

Still, my question remains unanswered.

No one has listed anything specific that I probably "expected" from the PT and was let down on.

No offense pal, but it seems to me like you have a "vendetta" against the PT or something. That may not be what's going on, but that's definately what it looks like (IMO). That's fine if you don't like it, but you appear to be trying to tell people here that their opinions are "wrong."

Someone out there expected Anakin to be older than a 10 year old boy in the prequel. Like...... oh, I don't know....... me! That was an expectation, not some sudden response upon seeing the movie. By your own argument, you obviously "expected" certain things you didn't get, so don't pretend you don't understand people with this reason. Other people expect different things than you do, that's all.

It seems to me that while you're acknowledging the "apples and oranges" truth of this discussion, you're still trying to convince some people that one is correct while the other isn't. Give up. There isn't a "good" reason for everything, nor is a good reason always needed. "Good" is a subjective term we use at our leisure to describe whatever we personally like. What's good for some is bad for others.

I for the record, I like the PT, but dislike the dialogue (and yes, before anyone jumps, the OT dialogue isn't great either (IMO), but it doesn't bug me as much.)

The Picnic

 

I think that the position of "too much expecation" is the single largest pile of bull**** that was ever concieved by a horde of fans that were either too loyal to admit the poorness of the PT's quality or too ignorant.

A horde of fans created this idea? Kevin Smith, Frank Darabont, and Danny Devito have all said the same things. These are guys that get paid millions to make movies. What reason do they have to be loyal? And what are they ignorant of?

 

The proof of this premise, will be, what happens to the Saga in 25 years. When todays kids become tomorrow's film critics and Parents, when they show the saga (PT First) to thier children, will they be showing them what they think to be masterpieces? Or a terrible set of movies at the beginning of the story, suddenly getting much better later on?

Personally, I think it will be the FORMER. I think in 25 years, the Saga will be released again at the Cinema, and just as with the S/E release in 1997, when that happens, the PT will join the OT as generally being hailed as masterpieces of film-making....

I can't wait to begin showing my Nephew these films. He was born in 2002, so when he's about 6 or 7, I will sit him down, and show him the Saga from 1-6. He will have NO expectations, he will have NO idea whats going to happen, where the story is going to go. He will have NO baggage, of one trilogy not living up to the next. That will truely be the ultmimate Star Wars experiance.

For myself, I have been perfectly happy with the PT. I have no objections to it, at all.

 

I truly love all 5 of the SW films.
I don't even like to rank them, they're all part of the one story to me.

Any viewpoints on the SW Saga are going to be, by their very nature, down to the individual tastes of the person in question. It's inevitable that with the release of any new film in a series, you will gain some fans and lose some. Plenty of people that loved ANH were turned off by ESB, as well as people that loved both.

So, it is all completely objective. That's why I never take complaints about the films (at the moment, more about TPM and AOTC) to heart because they simply don't relate to how I feel about them. I'm not ignoring those viewpoints, and I can understand them in some cases, but it's just not the way I feel when it comes to Star Wars.

EDIT - The fun bit's already starting to happen, now that there is more than one film released in the PT. You're getting new fans coming to this board that love TPM and AOTC and want to find out more about the OT. You're even getting situations where some people love the PT but dislike the OT. A true mix of opinion, in fact.

 

I don't see Why anyone should be 'objective'.

If you object to something about the PT then that is your taste. You shouldn't have to defend yourself. You just think something stinks about it.

Ditto if you like it. I like GL for what he does. I don't dislike him for what he does not do.

He has a very specific and limited spectrum of talents and interests. In a way he lets himself in for all this criticsim by egging people on: "This time it's all about character and story..." blah blah blah. But in the end GL is an editor and a visual artist. He Always loses interest in, or sight of, the story at some point and becomes fixated with some stylistic concept or techincal 'problem' he wants to solve.

When he wants he can pull back and produce films like "Tucker" "Mishima" and the excellent "Young Indiana Jones" series.

But we're talking about something aimed at grade-schoolers called "Star Wars". Stop and look at that title, those two words. Have you ever heard a more stupid title? "Star! Wars!!" - People take this thing Way too seriously.

I work in theater. I see and read all the new plays. I studied literature. I've had articles published. I know what good writing is. As a children's story Star Wars is well written - and it's successful > it entertains its target audience, communicates its concepts clearly to them and there are some beautiful bits here and there. Beyond that the writing is awful. Yet this doesn't bother me.

Star Wars is compelling for non-literary and anti-performance reasons. And I love it.

But I've just gone and done it...defended myself. . .

I guess it Does matter.

 

And Otis, you couldn't possibly be more wrong in what you said. That is the single most foolish thing uttered in regards to cinema ever. The film's job is to entertain the audience, not ask the audience to be ignorant for 2 hours.

You're wrong.

You suspend your disbelief, even when your eyes tell you that what you are seeing is not real.

It's not about being entertained, it's about allowing yourself you believe what you know not to be true.

-Otis

 

Great post, FSL

I agree with almost everything you wrote (except that I'm not such a professional), the main difference is that it bothers me
I mean, I accept George's limits, but I feel this story deserves a better materialization. (Like I feel the OT deserves a better made ending than ROTJ, though that was my favourite when I was a kid, and still like it.)
In fact, since I decided not to consider PT as part of SW, I began to like them again (I liked them first, then re-watched the OT, and found that the prequels seriously hurt it).

Scott3,
but those expectations (regarding Anakin's age and OB1's role) are strongly based on the OT. I don't know if Lucas told that (I think so), or just a rumour, but I clearly remember I saw somewhere that Anakin was meant to be 15 for awhile, but Lucas decided him to be younger at some point, because of the greater emotional effect, and also that Qui-Gon was originally OB1, but Lucas felt this character should be an older Jedi instead. So, if it's true, originally even Lucas himself thought the same thing the fans 'expected'.

 

The first time I saw a Star Wars movie was just over a year ago, when Attack of the Clones was playing in theaters. A friend was telling me all about Star Wars, and loaned me his copy of The Phantom Menace to try and get me interested in it.

So there I am, watching The Phantom Menace for the first time, when I haven't even seen the Original Trilogy. And you know what? I loved it. It wasn't the greatest movie I had seen, but I thought overall, it was a very good movie. Good enough that I went to the theater the next day to watch AotC, which absolutely blew me away. It was only after watching those two prequel movies that I saw the original trilogy, and to be perfectly honest, it was almost a letdown watching them. (Since then, I have watched the OT many times, and I do enjoy watching them.)

This whole story is probably irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I thought it's an interesting example dealing with peoples' expectations and preconceived notions of the PT and OT (or lack thereof), and how they effect the way you view a movie.