Are the Royal Guards in the EU clones?

This here is inspired by the Are the Crimson Guards Clones? thread in the AOTC forum. However, it is meant to focus on Royal Guards in the EU, while the thread in the AOTC forum focuses on the Crimson Guards in the PT, so this is not a redundant thread IMHO. (Please consider this, dear mods!) With this said, let's start off the discussion with a few observations:

In Crimson Empire, the Royal Guards were obviously not clones - we see some of them with their helmets off (or at least see their eyes), and they have different faces. However, when Kirtan Loor encounters some Royal Guards in X-Wing - Rogue Squadron, Stackpole makes a point of it that they (and all the Royal Guards that Loor had encountered before) were the same size and shape and seemed really "generic", which indicates clones.

Any thoughts, comments, or theories?

 

The real question is if the stormtroopers are clones, and the Royal Guards are supposedly the best of the stormtroopers, then how come they are not clones as well? They are not clones, at least according to Crimson Empire...

 

We know there are clone stormtroopers and recruited stormtroopers. My guess is that the Royal Guard is the elite of the recruited stormtroopers. Not only Crimson Empire showed us the training process of the Red Guards (and, of course, Kir Kanos and Carnor Jax are not clones) but AOTC shows us Red Guards before the clone army is released and, being the highest level of canon, it should be noted that Red Guards existed before the clone-mania. Everything seems to point to the Royal Guard being not-cloned humans, the authentic elite of the stormtroopers.

 

The "guards" in AOTC were not clones.

 

Are the Crimson Guards Clones?

Well, no... they've had plastic surgery so they look alike, but they're not clones.



I'm not sure what to think about the fact that that EU-originated gaffe has crept un-noticed into Prequel-canonite terminology, though... I mean, the Royal Guards wear Scarlet...

[pause, while image of Grodin Tierce wearing nothing but a red-headed female ninja settles in everyone's minds]

No, not Scarlett, you filthy fools!!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

id certainly hope not, becasue that would ruin a story im working on

but besides the point. it has been noted that there are royal guards in atoc, before we see the clones

 

In Crimson Empire, the Royal Guards were obviously not clones - we see some of them with their helmets off (or at least see their eyes), and they have different faces.

Actually, that's not proof at all. According to the short storyPac Empirica, there are several different lines of clones. Also, clones from the same line, are programmed
to not notice that they are clones. So, for all we know, there were clones from several different lines on Yinchorr. Since most stormtroopers are clones, (implied by the Imperial sourcebook) and since the best of the stormtroopers become royal guards, it stands to reason that there were some

EDIT: Actually , we only get to see 3 Royal Guards without their helmets. Kir Kanos, Carnor Jax, and the Master of the order. Kir Kanos and Jax look amazing alike. The leader of the Royal Guards actually looks like an older version of Kanos and Jax if ya ask me.

Before the stormtrooper corps was created, the Supreme Chancellor's Guard most likely did not consist of clones, but rather of the best of the Senate Guard

 

Actually, if you read the Visual Dictionary of AotC, you'll note that no one was sure where the Supreme Chancellor's personal guard came from or who they were. They could easily have been clones from Kamino.
That being said, I'll still have to agree with earlier statements in this thread that the Guards are the best of the non-clone Stormtroopers.

 

Erm Elvis, if they were clones from Kamino perhaps the Kaminoans might have commented about it when Obi-Wan came to visit, and how would they have produced them so fast if they're still doing the big clonetrooper order.

 

<<We know there are clone stormtroopers and recruited stormtroopers.>>

I was beginning to wonder if George Lucas was going to make ALL of the stormtroopers clones.

On the AOTC DVD he mentions Jango Fett's head bump when entering Slave I was done intentionally as a sort of joke about that trait being cloned into the stormtrooper in ANH that accidentally bumped head during filming. So at least some of them are cloned. Princess Leia's "aren't you a little short for stormtrooper" to Luke in ANH makes more sense if all of the stormtroopers are clones and the same height, right?

Is there any indication in the old films that some of them may not be clones?

If they *are* ALL clones, how much of the EU would that screw up?

 

It wouldn't screw things up much at all. Since the Empire used hundreds of different DNA donors, most people wouldn't realize that they're clones.

The only reason Luke and the others realized that Thrawn was using cloning was because he used the same template over and over again.

 

What if those special elite squads that the jedi lead into battle in AotC become Imp guards...?

 

A couple of things:

1) Members of a military unit can be similar sizes without being clones. Palpatine could have had height, weight, build, etc. specifications for stormptroopers, with even stricter requirements for his Royal Guard.

2) As for the Royal Guards being "elite clones," it's entirely possible. They are elite because of their training. So, if they have a harsher training, those that survive will be better soldiers.

3) Personally, I believe that the Royal Guard are not clones, and that stormtroopers may have started as clones, but eventually gave way to recruits, but I do allow for the possibility that I could be wrong.

 

What I understood from, say, Stackpole's description of stormtroopers was just that they were large specimens of human. For example, the "wannabe-stormies" of the Thyferra Defense Force are described as being too small for the armor. From this, it can be assumed that stormtrooper recruits are going to be large people. The (original) Essential Guide to Characters lists Davin Felth as being 1.8 meters tall. That's going to be height without armor, so you add maybe 5-6 centimeters, give or take, accounting for the helmet thickness and any heavy-soled boots. The fact alone that Davin Felth existed, and showed any kind of personal initiative at all, leads to some interesting conclusions. Either he was an exception to the clones, or he was a recruit. It's probably already been used as support to the "Stormtroopers are not all clones" debate before, but I'm just throwing it out there again.

If some stormtroopers are recruits, as has been established, then it would be a logical assumption that only the best of them would be trained as Royal Guards. Since clones were all identical, and clearly were not Royal Guard-level in their skills, then they cannot be Guardsmen. As the progenitor of the original clone troopers, Jango Fett, was very good at what he did, it's probable that the clonetroopers themselves only suffered casualties from lack of the same kind of equipment, overwhelming circumstances, etc. However, if all troopers are clones, including Guardsmen, there would be no point in assigning certain ones to bodyguard duty. Guardsmen are spoken of with respect, as if they were a lot more skillful than base-stormies. Also, as was stated by previous forumers, Guardsmen don't all look the same.

Long explanation short: Royal Guards are not clones.

 

<<If some stormtroopers are recruits, as has been established, then it would be a logical assumption that only the best of them would be trained as Royal Guards. >>

*Has* it been established by GL in the films (not EU) that some of the stormtroopers are recruits and not clones?

 

No, Melvin. It never has. However, for the purposes of this board, it doesn't matter. On the Lit. Forum, the EU is considered on the same level of canon as the movies.

 

Wasn't there a 2002-released EU source that mentioned Red Guards were promoted out of the Senate Guard? Or am I imagining this (I *think* I read it, but I don't remember where and I'm not certain about it) .

Thanks!

Edit: the only reference I can find on Holonet News says Palpatine was "silently flanked by his controversial Red Guards". Oh well, maybe I did imagine it.

 

There is a reference in the AotC Visual Dictionary. I'll have to look it up but I do recall it being there.

 

<<No, Melvin. It never has. However, for the purposes of this board, it doesn't matter. On the Lit. Forum, the EU is considered on the same level of canon as the movies. >>

That's debatable, but regardless -- if Ep III reveals that ALL of the stormtroopers are, in fact, clones, then the EU is going to have to do some reworking to explain some things(as it did with Boba Fett's past from Ep II). All those characters from the EU who were stormtroopers and not clones, will have some 'splaining to do.

I'm not bashing the EU at all, I love it. It's just a question about how the past stories will have to be changed.

I know some of the Kyle Katarn stuff will have to be explained - he is clearly a stormtrooper in those books.

There are a couple of stories in the anthologies (Tales from the Empire, etc.) which have non-clone stormtroopers.

One idea:
Luke and Biggs talk about joining the Imperials in ANH. Of course, you do see some humans walking around with the stormtroopers, so maybe they were going for non-stormtrooper positions. And Han was with the Imperials for a short time - but not necessarily as a stormtrooper.

 

How exactly could Episode III reveal that ALL of the stormtroopers are clones?

 

Lots of ways.

Sidious to Tyranus or Vader: "From now on, all armored troops will remain clones to ensure optimal subservience."

That's a little obvious, but you catch my drift.

 

Regardless, a fix for just that sort of situation was made years ago in the Imperial Sourcebook. Here is a letter from an Imperial official to recruiters In the letter, the official tells recruiters what kind of individuials they should target when looking for people to recruit for service in the Imperial Army(seperate from the stormtroopers) and the Imperial Navy. The Imperial official goes in to say:

Stormtrooper units will continue to be formed in the standard manner, and therefore fall outside of your jurisdiction. However, the Empire is always looking for people with high aptitudes and initiatives to undergo specialist training. The files of any recruits who match this criteria should be forwarded to Imperial Command.

As you can see stormtrooper recruiting is done differently from Army and Navy recruiting. However, select non clone individuals are indeed recruited for service as stormtroopers. I think we can safely say that while the majority of stormtroopers are clones, there is a very small minority that are not.

 

Sidious to Tyranus or Vader: "From now on, all armored troops will remain clones to ensure optimal subservience."

Even then, there would be loop holes. Things can change in 20 years.

 

Couplke that exerpt with the entry for stormtroopers in the Imperial sourcebook:

Encased in protective armor and wielding the most powerful personal weapons available, Imperial stormtroopers form the Empire?s elite shock troops and are feared throughout the galaxy. Stormtroopers support the two arms of the military - assisting the ground forces and the Imperial fleets - but remain apart and separate from these organizations.

Imperial command assigns stormtroopers wherever they are needed to crush resistance and neutralize opposition to the will of the Emperor. They are totally loyal and cannot be bribed, seduced or blackmailed into betraying the New Order. They live in a totally disciplined militaristic world where obedience is paramount and the will of the Empire is unquestioned.

Where the men who wear the armor of the stormtroopers are recruited from is unknown, just another part of the mystery that adds to the aura of fear and secrecy that surrounds these soldiers.

Some say the stormtroopers were created to provide the Emperor with an obedient force that was loyal to no one save him. Others note that these specialized warriors were designed to provide adequate protection to the varied worlds of the Galactic Empire with little preparation time. Whether one or both of these are true, it remains that the stormtroopers fit the doctrine of rule through fear very well indeed.

In addition to the core stormtrooper forces (which some reports indicate is greater than the number of regular Army and Naval forces combined), a number of elite divisions have been established to move into a specialized environment at a moment?s notice. These units are equipped with particularly designed armor, weapons, and gear created for use in specific environments.

After AotCs, we now know where the majority of stormtroopers come from.

 

Thanks for the quotes from the imperial handbook, matthew. Haven't read that description - it'll be interesting to see if GL holds to that in the next film, or leaves it open.

<<Even then, there would be loop holes. Things can change in 20 years.>>

Yeah - like the clones' gene pool getting polluted and making them lousy shots with blasters.