Are the true fans the ones that point out all the flaws or are they the ones that like the prequels?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by sdj, Sep 13, 2002.

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  1. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Punisher, your 12:55pm post, in the words of Rick McCallum was ******* awesome dude!

    Don't quote McCallum. It's too dangerous.
  2. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    I'm going to play the game where we attack the actual argument of a posterm, without resorting to personal attacks. Watch this everybody:



    When I was a kid and stood in line for HOURS to see ROTJ, I couldn't wait. Even though that film is reviled by some fans because it had EWOKS, the biggest thing that bugged me is that it had another Death Star...

    What's wrong with another Death Star. It was a brilliant move on the Emperor's part. It's the ol' bait and switch. Give them something they've seen before and then screw them over. He just didn't count on Ewoks being a problem (b/c of his xenophobia) or his loyal pupil giving him the Shaft.


    "What makes that bad is that I live in a "hick" town and some guy even said during the film "Didn't they do this in the first one?!"

    "Some people LOVE the repeating themes, but I'm getting SICK of it! When does it stop being genius and just become a lame attempt at repeating yourself enough to keep the fans' happy and the box office rolling in?"


    Because Lucas is creating a world that existed before the OT, there has to be some connections to it. I'm glad this isn't the normal argument of "Where's the Cool OT Style?" But be that as it may, Lucas does have to stick to the idium of created. It would be a greater blasphemy to junk what he made in the OT, like what happens with a lot of the EU novels that have come out since then.



    "Okay, so we have TPM, I didn't care for C-3PO being built by Anakin. WHY?
    NOW every idiot is going to watch the OT and try to draw some kind of parallel to Vader and Threepio....
    "In the Carbon Freezing Chamber... Vader recognized Threepio!"


    If you didn't recognize that that was a Joke Thread, I'm sorry. But I think it's a great irony that the Chosen One created something that would be worshipped itself in ROTJ. And many fans have remarkably found some great parallels to their story.


    "The problem with the PT is that GL is trying to tie up so many loose ends by "relating" every character to the other...
    in R2-D2's case his "relationship" with Padme is extremely logical... in Anakin and Threepio's case it isn't "He's a protocol droid to help mom."
    Does anyone remember the trouble Threepio had getting Owen to buy him in ANH?
    What the hell good is he to Shmi, she didn't have a moisture farm! We never saw her deal with different aliens... if she's a slave, I would doubt that she should even have a droid at all!


    Anakin built him to help her as a slave. And to have someone to talk to while he is gone. With the alien culture that exists on Tatooine Shmi would benefit a lot from having someone like 3P0 around. Plus, that's really a sweet gift to leave her.


    "The point is, that in order to get C-3PO into the films, GL gave him a very "flimsy" origin...
    For people that take their SW seriously, it is a bit of a slap in the face to think that GL is turning a GALAXY far, far, away into a SMALL, SMALL, WORLD!"


    It wasn't that large to begin with. And George Lucas has taken great strides to introduce new worlds into the Star Wars galaxy, while at the same time tying everything in. Tatooine is the only planet we've seen from the OT. Maybe we'll get some more in Episode III, but as it stands now, Lucas has brought a lot of new worlds into Star Wars.


    "Jeez, there have been loads of comments from people that wanted OT characters in the PT? WHY?
    I don't care about seeing a 16 year old Han Solo in a vest and bloodstripe pants running around in the background!"


    Good point. I never understood this either. I think it has to do with some crazy Han Solo fetish. Lucas was generous enough to make Boba Fett a more meaningful character, but he has abstained from committing the EU sin of expanding on every minor character in the Star Wars universe.


    "Half the time, I'm not pissed at Lucas, I'm pissed at the fans that want to go out of their way to turn a "modern myth" into a dated pile of crap full of lame in jokes and references to modern times!
    "I don't care what galaxy you'
  3. OgiBenDagi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2002
    star 1
    The_Abstract makes a very good point. I have noticed that there are a lot of people, and I don't just mean the fans that hate the PT, but a lot of different people that try to possess Star Wars.

    They define what it is and then lay it down like law. They seem to believe that because they were along for part, or all of the ride that they have an ownership to the Star Wars Saga, and as such can tell anyone and everyone what is good or bad and what should be liked or disliked.

    Criticism is fine and I think that The_Abstract just showed a great example of a critique that focuses on content. But never did he lay down his responses like he is THE definitive voice of the Star Wars Universe.
  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Yes very good point. GL made it so fans can enjoy it. if you don't like the PT. then don't watch it but other people like it and we should not stop them form liking it.
  5. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    This thread is hilarious. It has more wit in it than a PT script.
  6. One-with-the-Force Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
  7. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    two the last two you don't have to like the PT. But don't stop other people form liking it.
  8. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    In the good ol' days true fandom was decided in single combat. There was none of this "talking it over" stuff. It was just two fans in a circle, with shivs.
  9. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    fourty 6 and 2 posted :
    "idiotic decisions in the PT that a blind man can see include: midiclorians, Qui gon discovering Anakin and not Obi wan, Anakin being a nice kid, and Jar Jar replacing r2 and threepio as comic relief."

    How is the subject of midichlorians any crazier than something like the force? I think the subject of midiclorians allows the subject of the force to make more sense and a lot less crazy.

    Qui gon discovering Anakin makes the story much more rich, and gives it more depth. It would be incredibaly boring if Obi wan discovered Anakin. The fact that Obi wan wasnt very fond of Anakin in episode 1 contributes to the downfall of their friendship in episode 3, im pretty sure of that.

    It would also be incredibaly boring if Anakin was a mean kid in TPM. Where would the story go if he was a mean kid? If he was a mean kid, why would the Jedi train him in the first place? The reason the OT worked so well was because Vader was not a one dimensional bad character. We saw good in him even in TESB. Why is it so bad that he is a nice kid in TPM? Come on now, if you really are a true OT fan, you will remember that Obiwan said that "Anakin was a good freind", and the "good man who was your father was destroyed". Why were you guys shocked that Anakin was a good kid in TPM?

    And about Jar Jar: Ok , Jar Jar is Jar Jar. You dont have to like him. In fact, I always assumed that he was meant to be annoying. In my opinion thats good characterization. He was obviously meant to appeal to kids, and thats fine. But no matter how annoying Jar Jar is, he seems to fit the story well. It fits well because Anakin, the protagonist of the story, is himself a kid. I dont think Jar Jar was meant as much for comic relief. In fact, GL purposefully meant to tone down the humor in the PT b/c it is a tragedy. He isnt trying to be humorous.
  10. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    After seeing Carrie Fisher at C2, I get the feeling that she wouldn't have a problem seeing her "buddy" George take a fall. Perhaps those people DON'T want to be associated with SW that much anymore...that means that GL should have looked outside his "Young Indy circle" to find someone worthy of the task.

    All fans are a bit possessive aren't they? I made a post a while back that everyone here is playing "couch potato" director of the SW saga in some way... I'm sorry, it's GEORGE'S VISION, right? ;)
    I don't think the inclusion of Boba Fett added any "depth" to such a minor character, I would have much rather seen more on Count Dooku, after all his existence has made a larger impact than Boba Fett did (in the long run).

    After reading some parts of what ROTJ could have been (Had Abbadon, duel in "hell",etc.), the final film was a bit disappointing.

    The connections you speak of are there in the characters, he didn't need to make every situation mirror another. I'm a fan of the SW comics (GASP!) and many a time, the writers could have taken the "easy" way out and mirror their stories to the films... that is one reason why I gave up on the novels.. it's silly to pay $25 or more for some hack's attempt at retelling the OT.

    I found it more ironic to know that Palpatine has been manipulating the "Delegates" from Naboo into giving him more and more power. Different tastes in irony, I suppose...

    Whenever there's no real answer to an argument rely on emotionalism...
    It was sweet that Ani gave Padme a Japor Snippet, I guess when she "dies" Ani can get all Rambo 2, tie it around neck and get into kicking some Jedi butt!

    New worlds...hmm, let's see, in AOTC we had Kamino and Geonosis, that's pretty good... 2 for the 2nd part.

    The comments I have made refer to past topics over the time I have been here where lost of fans have had some truly stupid ideas....
    I'm up on the Joesph Campbell connection...in some respects, that's the only thing GL hasn't screwed up , IMHO.

    I think that it was because of S-M's story and the headlines, that it did make more money than AOTC...
    People didn't care about troubled, teens with lightsabers... they wanted hero worship.

    I don't care for GL's brand of comedy. Fart and poop jokes aside, I don't think that C-3PO's antics in AOTC helped him as a character at all. Jar Jar's antics (while some were funny) did distract from the serious issues being dealt. That's not comic relief, it's more like comedic sidetracking.

    You may not owe me crap, but I have a right to state my views... it's not like I'm hacking into the boards to delete every post I don't agree with.
    True, GL created SW, but it's been his charge that he makes the movies for himself and NOT the fans. So I look at it like this, the PT/OT "gushers" could get screwed as much as the "bashers" feel they have been.

    If that time comes, don't come whining about how GL's ruined your saga either, okay?
    That's OUR character flaw! 8-}
  11. Only_2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 3
    So I look at it like this, the PT/OT "gushers" could get screwed as much as the "bashers" feel they have been.

    If that time comes, don't come whining about how GL's ruined your saga either, okay?
    That's OUR character flaw!


    If what happens? I'm confused. You state many reasons why you dislike Lucas and the PT but this last sentence doesn't make any sense. How is this time going to come? Why wouldn't it have come already? Are you making a prediction of gusher feelings in the future based on knowledge? Are you just venting because you like to repeat the same point over and over and over again? I thought you didn't like the reuse of ideas in Star Wars. Why do you use it as the body of your repetitious argument?

    [waves hand]These aren't the Star Wars movies you're looking for.

    Move along.[/waves hand]
  12. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Have you seen LOTR's the guy who made that I do not remember his name. Said he made them the way he wanted to make them not the way the fans wanted it to be made way. Becasue he knew that you can't please ever one. GL is doing the same thing. He will make it the way he wants to because in the end not ever one will like it. But you know what I don't care how he makes it just as long as he makes it so I can see what happens to Anakin and Padme Obi-wan etc. So don't say that he should do what the fans say. because it is GL's he is letting us see what he made. He never had to make to in the 1st place. Be happy he did. Also be happy new people are finding out aobut SW becasue of the PT.
  13. OgiBenDagi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2002
    star 1
    I didn't say anything about ALL fans being possesive. What I meant was that some people seem to take ownership and other people seem to just discuss freely and listen to the ideas of others whether they agree or not, they don't set their own opinions up to hold more weight than someone else's
  14. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    More bannable thread ideas

    "Official Why Couldn't AOTC be more like 'Fellowship of the Rings' Thread"
    "ILM still not very advanced when it comes to AOTC's computer-generated dialogue"
    "Forum Members I Don't Respect"
    "I Haven't Seen 'Matrix Reloaded' but I already know it's better than AOTC"
    "AOTC DVD - Will make a good beer coaster"
  15. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    How about this :

    "Theory: Jabbadobo is really Jim Rome"
  16. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    even better ST is better then SW. This one will go no for very and very and very.....
  17. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    I used the word IF, because I expect that even IF GL screwed the entire thing up, and everyone in the universe agreed with it, there will still be those that will say that it was perfect and to stop screaming about it.
    That IF is to mean that it may not seem like crap to you...
    I'm not saying everything in the PT was total garbage, but I think it's flaws have outweighed it's benefits to the entire story...
    I'm trying to have some hope... but you guys are wearing that away...

    That IF depends on your point of view....
    what is this Clinton's impeachment?
    "Define is..."

    I'm not weak minded, but I argue with them....

    Ypu know what this thread needs? A little Rodney King...

    "Can't we all just get along?" 8-}
  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    That has been said before but that does not mean people should not watch it.
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I think the fundamental issue here is do you care what Lucas wants the prequels to be, or are you only in this for what YOU want?
  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I'm in it for SW. I might want to go one way. But really I will like EP3 just like I like EP 4, 5, 6, 1, & 2 no matter were GL takes it becasue I'm on this for the long hall.
  21. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Bannable Threads Continued

    "Vote Jabbadabbado Emergency Powers over Jedicouncil Forum"

    "Roger Ebert - Why that Fat Bastard is a Traitor and should Burn in Hell"

    "**** the Critics! Here's How!"

    "How I stopped hating Jar Jar and Learned to Hate George Lucas Instead"
  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Is that all. How about. the 2nd and 3rd LotR are really good. even though they have not come out yet. Odd.
  23. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    I'm having a realization... those that take a "Gusher" side don't care about anything that happens in the films because they don't feel the need for any plot line to make any sense at all or to benefit the greater whole of the story.

    They WANT Anakin to be a helpless victim and not responsible for his actions, a manipulated little boy that DV is the ultimate manifestation of... they want to sap any dramatic tension from the films... they want to have repeatable themes for the sake of it...they want to eliminate all characterization from the films and to replace that with mindless stereotypes...

    I guess a lot of you don't feel the need to have personal responsibility or standards in ones work.
    I respect the work of those that made the Saga come to life, but I question the capability of said creator to make the best of his creation. I understand that you will disagree with my statement, but that's what I FEEL. ;)

    Even though ST has become run of the mill, they did attempt to bring in new blood and to take some logical risks with their franchise (DS9 & Voyager, even though I liked DS9 much better).
    ST:TNG wasn't a clone of the 60's ST, fans complained about it, but it wasn't like the ST creators were trying to rewrite "history" every chance they saw fit, I could see said complaints about Enterprise, but even they didn't try to cheapen their characters with lame attepts at humor.
    I'm not much of a Trekkie, but I have some respect for their ATTEMPT to maintain some creative vision, even if it is a bit short-sighted.


  24. Forty-SixAnd2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 1
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I am of the opinion that some people didn't take the time to understand what Lucas was doing, which is why some people act like the prequels have no substance. If these people would stop looking at what the prequels are not and start looking at what they are, then they might see the substance of what Lucas is trying to do.

    I know Lucas has put way more thought into what he is doing than anyone on this forum has ever put into trying to undertsand what he is doing.

    If they did that, they might see the point to the prequels. The thing that makes up for all the little flaws they point out with such unrelenting eagerness.
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