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ST Are there really more plot holes than other films?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by blaisedinsd, Dec 22, 2015.

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Does TFA have more plot holes than any of the other films?

  1. Yes

    49 vote(s)
    32.2%
  2. No

    88 vote(s)
    57.9%
  3. Unsure

    15 vote(s)
    9.9%
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  1. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    1) Rey and Finn knew the story of Han Solo and Leia, because hey saved the galaxy at one point. That is not trivial. Just as Kylo Ren being their son and now leading the bad guys who built this super bigger death star should be well known by everyone as well. That is a plot hole because it makes no sense that folks wouldn't know this since folks can fly from one side of the galaxy to the other in a blink of an eye news travels kinda quick even to a backwater like Jakku. This is all about the dialog and story as told in the film. The point being that the First Order and their super weapon are a threat to the galaxy and they are led by Kylo Ren who killed off the new crop of jedis in training. I don't see how that would be 'secret' as in the way the Sith used the Republic to create the empire without most people understanding what was happening. Here they are bad guys from the start or at least so it seems.

    Ultimately the point being the dialog between the characters when they see each other becomes more interesting IMO.

    2) Sure of course that is what the movie is saying. I get that, but again it makes no sense. I always thought they had droids for a lot of that stuff or least that is another reasonable argument as well. Storm troopers in my understanding of GFFO are only for combat. If not then they aren't storm troopers. And there are a whole lot of storm troopers so why is this janitor required as if they don't have more than enough troopers to do this. But that is just my opinion of course.

    3) He was not reconditioned, or at least this was not shown. As far as I know he never went to reconditioning which is why he decided to try to escape. And given that these are bad guys you would think that reconditioning or seeming to resist "the program" would have you taken into custody and forced into reconditioning.

    4) True. But Poe is a fighter and Leia was a princess on a diplomatic mission. Totally different but very similar. Fighters would get harsher treatment.

    5) I could swear they said the thing had been sitting around and hadn't been flown in a while. Only later did someone say it had been modified but that doesn't mean it was sitting on Jakku in flight ready status.....

    6) Saving the galaxy from being destroyed and conquered by bad guys qualifies as somebody as superstars especially when those individuals were the key to the victory. Or maybe you don't see these three as the heroes of EP IV - VI? Leia captured the plans and got them to the rebels who destroyed the death star, Han helped destroy the death star and Luke ultimately helped or caused the Sith lord to be killed by his father. Not sure how that doesn't qualify as superstar status.

    7) Regardless of whether it is actively being used it is a threat regardless. That is like saying having a gun pointing at someone's head is ok if it isn't being 'actively' fired. Military strategy would assume that just the existance of such a thing is a threat and needs to be countered if and when the stuff jumps off. Not to mention the resistance is actively fighting these folks so it isn't a cold war.

    8) I wasn't so much saying that I wanted to see a parking lot. I am saying that the location wasn't believable to me as the location of an intergalactic space cantina. My brain just said wait, the environment is so pretty and pristine how can an 'integralactic port of call' be located there? And being a state park in real life it makes sense that it is devoid of the presence of human activity. But this is a sci fi movie so this is what you expect to see in a sci fi movie. Endor and Yavin had it but in a military context so everything was camouflaged and hidden of necessity.

    9) That lightsaber is part of Han's backstory. He was the one who told Luke and Leia to go to cloud city and meet Lando and as a result they were captured in an ambush and subsequently Han was frozen in carbonite and Luke lost the saber with his hand still on it. Meaning this saber would/should have some significance to him and it being in Maz's without him knowing it makes no sense. Maz of all people according to what was said should know this. And it would make sense that both of them knew about it and he let her keep it for whatever reason, as opposed to the idea that he had no idea it was there.

    10) Han believed in the force after seeing what happened with Luke in EP IV. So story wise and experience wise he knows more about it than Maz, specifically as he also knows that his son is on the dark side of said force. Especially since his son was chosen to train under Luke which would imply he consented (if he was around) which would again mean he knows quite a lot about the force by now. Which also begs the question if he knows about Leia also being force sensitive? Again, better opportunities for dialog than what was presented based on the actual backstory IMO.

    11) Can you pick up a sword and fight someone who is a skilled swordsperson and not get your butt kicked? Of course not. Lightsabers/swords are rare in GFFA an most folks use laser firearms. Makes no sense that Finn would have any training in such a thing as only JEDIs train with light swords, at least that is according to Lucas himself and consistent with all the other films. No other storm trooper has even been shown fighting with a light saber. Ever.

    12) Agreed.
     
    Gaston444 likes this.
  2. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    On the point of what is a plot hole and what isn't a plot hole in my opinion it boils down to this:

    Something that is fundamental to the story that you are currently watching that, explained, illustrated or acted out in said film makes no sense.
    Normally it is such because it contradicts knowledge established elsewhere in said story line.
    For example: Finn and the light saber totally goes against every other SW film to this point and George Lucas's own statements on it.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

    Now Finn just picks it up just like it is an everyday thing anybody would know how to use and nothing about his use of it implies training from being a storm trooper, as storm troopers don't use light sabers.

    That is a plot hole.

    I didn't really object to it either when I saw the film and I am not hopping mad about it now but is a plot hole.

    This isn't an issue of exposition either because I can't think of a way that this would be explained that would make sense.
     
  3. Green Gogol

    Green Gogol Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Lightsaber being exclusive to jedi? Easily explained. It's been 30 years since they were defeated by a dude with a lightsaber. What is wrong with someone suddenly saying: "Guys, why don't we train to be able to fight against a dude with a lightsaber?"

    But whatever makes you happy.

    Anyway I think a common complaint about TFA really explain the reaction of fans here: Phasma being underused. People here a complaining about that a lot. So my guess is, you were expecting something, you got something else. That is why people are complaining.

    Me I wasn't expecting anything, didn't read anything about the upcoming movie, went to the theater and watched with an open mind, and was happy about the result. Was it the ultimate best movie ever? Of course not. But I don't expect that from Star Wars.
     
  4. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Any movie can have plotholes. This isn't really something I find unique to star wars.
    There wasn't really anything that stopped me from enjoying the film and I did. But just because I enjoyed it doesn't mean there aren't plot holes.
    Most times people just ignore them.
     
  5. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I see most of them as less "plotholes" and more "dangling plothreads." They'll only become flat-out plotHOLES if they're never picked up on/addressed (which I expect that they will be). And some, I just see as anyone problematic at all. Don't get me wrong, it's not a perfect movie (none of them are, even ESB). But it's really good imo.
     
  6. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I didn't really object to it either when I saw the film and I am not hopping mad about it now but is a plot hole.

    Not really. First of all, we see that the Stormtroopers, or at least some of the, are trained to use melee weapons. Second, he's really awkward with it, doing really basic stuff. Third, it makes a lot of sense that the FO would prepare their troops for this, given that a guy with a lightsaber helped to defeat the last Empire. And forth, we've already seen in other media non-Jedi doing this. For example, in TCW, Pre Vizla uses a darksaber (basically an older version of a lightsaber) so well that he could keep up with Darth Maul (and expert duelist) for a good while.
     
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  7. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    So much this. It's premature to call TFA dangling threads plot holes before we see Episode 8.
     
  8. EJA

    EJA Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Has anyone figured out yet how the Starkiller weapon/planet was supposed to power itself after it had drained the sun of all energy? It clearly can't move (otherwise why would the laser gun need to have hyperdrive?). This is a definite plot hole.
     
  9. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2002
    It could either move or drain neighboring star systems through hyperspace. If it can shoot through hyperspace why couldn't it charge that way? But I figured it could move to adjacent systems.

    Why didn't the Death Star blow up Yavin and then the moon the rebels were on afterward?
     
  10. EJA

    EJA Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Didn't it need the sun's power to use its hyperdrive weapon? No sun = no hyperdrive to reach across space.
     
  11. EJA

    EJA Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Assuming the Starkiller can't travel through space, and it can't latch onto other stars in different systems, how would the weapon continue to function?
     
  12. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    It isn't about making me happy. I was happy with the film as is, flaws and all.

    This is just one example of a legitimate contradiction to everything we have seen before in the GFFA. If they were going to decide to have storm troopers train to use light sabers it would have happened between AOTC and EP IV, during the clone wars and the hunting down of the JEDI after the Republic became the empire. The fact that it didn't happen then, when there were many more JEDI around means it doesn't make sense now when there is only one JEDI in the galaxy.

    So no that is still inconsistent with everything we have been told up to this point by everything I am aware of related to GFFA and still qualifies as a plot hole.

    And lets say what you said is actually true, (which at this pont it isn't because none of it has been explained) do you believe that the FO trained storm troopers had any chance against the baddest JEDI left in the galaxy? Seriously? And of course that doesn't explain this trooper being able to even take on the master who would have trained them. Either way it is totally ridiculous.

    But of course anybody can change this now that the movies are under new ownership but it still doesn't make sense and is still a plot hole.
     
  13. Green Gogol

    Green Gogol Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Don't agree with you. Why would they train Clone Troopers to fight with lightsabers? They were on the Jedi side. Why would the Empire train stormtroopers to fight with lightsabers? Jedi were extinct.

    And explain to me why Stormtroopers can't train with melee weapons again? Why is it impossible? Rule of the GFFA? So following this logic, girls can't pilot X-Wings since we haven't seen it before. You confuse GFFA rules with things never seen before. Does never seen before really mean it's impossible or violate the rules?

    I believe that Finn did his best to defend Rey, and got almost killed in the process. Did he believe he could beat Kylo Ren. I don't know. But he did the only thing he could to protect Rey. And baddest? Doesn't mean much when you are the only one left. We know his training is not complete. We know he don't have total control on the force. Heck he struggle to take the lightsaber in the snow. We know he's seriously hurt.

    Don't confuse your expectations with what you actually saw. You expected a new villain, stronger, baddasser, eviler. You got a half-trained young man with family issues throwing temper tantrums, who idolize Darth Vader and complain he is not as strong as him and that he is conflicted, who get seriously wounded, and is defeated by an untrained rookie. You wanted a badass Phasma, you got her in a minor role doing nothing. Is Phasma a badass? So far, no. She's just some "cool-looking" minor character.

    But if you can't come up with answers yourself, try reading Before the Awakening. You will now more about Finn's training, you will learn why Rey could pilot the Falcon like she did, and more.

    Or you can think it's a plothole. I don't.
     
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  14. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I don't think that's the case with Phasma. I think the problem is she's a character of little point... She's not established to do anything other than de-activate the shields (or whatever she did to totally undermine the Starkillerbase and First Order). Now Phasma may well go onto be one of the best SW characters, but you can only judge it by what is seen in the actual film itself. The problem with Phasma, IMO, isn't her lack of screentime/dialogue... but the reason for her inclusion at all. I feel that there's a lot of characters and plot points in TFA that are thrown into the mix and ultimately don't go anywhere. I feel that works against the film when it would have been better by applying the 'less is more' rule.
     
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  15. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    I'm no assistant professor, but even I know that 95 percent of those nitpicks aren't plotholes. :)
     
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  16. WriterMan

    WriterMan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Another one...

    How convenient that the Empire didn't blast Threepio and Artoo's escape pod. Like they're on a budget? Would that extra blast have really hurt their electric bill? I mean considering that they're hellbent on finding those plans (aka making sure the Rebellion doesn't get them) why wouldn't they just blow it up as a precaution? What if the pod had just the plans in it and there was someone waiting to obtain them on the planet? I guess the Empire doesn't really consider all the odds.

    ANH is my favorite Star Wars film but I facepalm so hard every time during those few brief seconds in the movie.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Nothing you try to explain to me is going to change my thinking on this.
    You have your ideas on it and that is fine.

    To me it is a plot hole. Maybe you are right in this new GFFA anybody can use light sabers.
    But it still doesn't make sense, first and foremost because light sabers were uniquely created by each JEDI as their personal weapon. Not to mention all the training that would go into it, especially up to and including blocking laser beams. This is based purely on watching the previous movies, some of the clone wars and reading a few EU books. Certainly at no other time and in none of the other SW movies has this ever been the case.And at this point that is about where it stands for me.

    If they decided to change course on this and make up some excuse for it and put it into this new book then fine too. They can change everything about the GFFA they own it now.

    Also, during the Empire the JEDI were not extinct. OBI was alive and so was Yoda. But you just agreed that those 2 weren't enough to justify light saber training but now for one Luke Skywalker all of a sudden it is. Fine, maybe so, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
     
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  18. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Exactly. I watched ANH the other day and thought the exact same thing.
    But at least they explained it by saying 'oh there is no sign of life aboard' and of course Vader had to tell them it may be droids and send storm troopers to the surface.

    LOL!

    Any movie can have plot holes....
     
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  19. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    That is exactly the point. Our willingness to accept them is really based on our reception of the film as a whole.
     
  20. Count Dood

    Count Dood Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Flaws, plot holes, logical inconsistencies whatever you call it all movies have them.
    They don't necessarily spoil people's enjoyment of a film.
    But that doesn't mean they don't exist is my point.

    Another good flaw or goof in filming is the infamous Padme magic midriff expose during the arena fight.
    One minute her torso is covered and the next it is exposed. Just like that.

    LOL!
     
  21. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Sure,mthey exist. Though I do think to me that many "plot holes" identified for this movie really aren't. For example, the "R2 waking up" plot hole.... I knew JJ's explaination before I went to see, and it seemed obvious to me with that knowledge before hand. My wife didn't know anything about it. After the movie, I asked her why she thought R2 woke up.... She said right away that BB-8 had tried to wake him up earlier to tell him about the map, but it took a while for R2 to come out of hibernation. She got it, even without knowing the explaination. That kind of thing.
     
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  22. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2002
    That's true...it's the biggest reason the OT gets a pass.
     
  23. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Vader first and foremost mission in ANH was not to retrieve the stolen plans but to find the Rebels' hidden base. Once he realized that there was a rescue operation in process to free the princess, he played along, had a homing beacon installed on the Falcon, facilitated the escape of the princess (stormtroopers apparently ordered to shoot but to miss) who did vocally wonder about the "ease" of their escape later on.

    The Empire didn't consider one man fighters as a threat and we don't know how many TIE fighters were stationed on the Death Star and how many were actually able to take off, considering the high probabilty that Blue Squadron (the other "unseen" 15 ships) attacked many TIE hangars.

    The radio drama made that clear. General Willard, commander of the Rebel forces wanted to evacuate but Vader insisted they make a stand before other planets suffer Alderaan's fate. Yet, General Willard is later absent in the war room and during the medal ceremony, so I think it's fair to assume that he was evacuated to continue whatever was left of the rebellion in case the Death Star suceeded.
     
  24. NorthBayForce

    NorthBayForce Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 5, 2015
    There are a lot of loose end that will be fixed in upcoming novels and hopefully anthology movies. I hope people aren't complaining about this
     
  25. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 18, 2012
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