Are these 2 books considered to be canon?

Are Star Wars Galaxies: The Ruins of Dantooine and Republic Commando: Hard Contact considered to be cannon? Because if they are I'll buy them and if they aren't I won't!


Canon, cannon...

 

From what I know they are both canon.

 

[image=http://www.akdess.com/images/cannon.jpg]

 

Unless the particular Literature in question has the "infinities" label or are stated to not being canon than it falls under LFL classification of C-canon. Which is basiclly everything that isn't directly from GL's mouth or the Movies.

This is the latest statement regarding Continuity and Canon:

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of oficialness?

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.
-Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron

 

Why wouldn't they be?

 

SOmetimes vieo games arn't trust worthy sources, so you might want to be suspicious.

They are in fact cannon. They are like the X-wing books.



[image=http://www.msu.edu/user/villafr1/photo/cannon.jpg]

 

Anything without an Infinities label is canon.

 

ok, can anyone explain what canon is anyway....

 

Until Val posts it, here's as good a summary as can be done by me:

G(eorge) Canon: The highest level. Stuff from the movies or stated by Lucas explicitly. Overrides everything else.

C(ontinuity) Canon: 2nd highest. Started in the EU and a certain fact. If used by Lucas, can become G-Canon.

S(econdary) Canon: Minor details that are not as yet completely official or unofficial. If overwritten, can become N-Canon; if used, can become C-Canon.

N(on) Canon: Infinities, some or most of Tales, and any stories retroactively decided to be Infinities (I believe some Marvel). Untrue. Never happened.

 

What is an example of S Canon?

 

As LFL won't let the public see the Holocron (continuity database), we have no or little idea as to what's what. Like I said, ask Valiento.

 

Are (any of) the Marvel comics N-canon?

 

No, unfortunately; they're C-Canon.

 

I've never read them. Just curious. May pick them up sometime.

 

No one knows what is S-canon is for sure, as LFL will not tell, however its been described as being obscure sources for the most part. Personally I prefer it this way that we don't know what things are for sure, as it allows fans to try to figure out fixes for the occasional error that crops up, and it doesn't alienate fans of individual sources, that would be upset if a favorite source of theirs was thrown out.

Though I have my suspicions that it may include parts of Marvel(though most is C-canon), some WEG material, some elements of novels that have been made difficult to fit due to the prequels (for example some of the timeline snafus in TTT), and occasional element within novels that are tricky due to other sources. Pablo has said that people would be surprised that certain newer books written in the last couple of years have issues that put them into a suspect zone(perhaps S-canon, but he never specifically said what form of suspect).

We do know that nothing post-ROTJ is G-canon, at least as far as Leland Chee knows. So for example Lucas believes Boba Fett died in ROTJ so that would be G-canon, the survival of Boba Fett would not be G-canon, but merely C-canon. However for the sake of EU-continuty in that case a blind eye is turned to G-canon.

All issues of Tales from issue #1-#20 are considered n-canon. However elements from the stories have been retold in other sources, those elements are "C-canon", where as tales itself is considered "N-canon". Those tales issues have been described as being "N-canon with elements of continuity" by Leland Chee over at starwars.com.

This will change starting with issue #21, where the New tales will have stories both Non-canon, and Canon, and each individual story will be marked with its status. However Leland has said that the new policy does not retroactively apply to older tales.

 

Here's the timetales list of Infinities / N-Canon (not LFL, but pretty close:

Tales, Infinities, and:

?Classic Star Wars: Devilworlds ? Flight of the Falcon.? COMIC STRIP ? Marvel Comics Inc. ? Steve Parkhouse ? 1981

?Tag and Bink are Dead.? COMIC BOOK MINISERIES ? Dark Horse Comics ? Kevin Rubio ? October-November 2001

?SW Adventure Journal: Starter?s Tale.? SHORT STORY ? West End Games ? Peter Schweighofer ? November 1994

?The Marvel Series: Hoth Stuff. (#78)? COMIC BOOK ? Marvel Comics Inc. ? David Michelinie ? December 1980

 

Interesting enough while devilworlds are considered infinities, and therefore would fall under N-canon category, one element of flight of the falcon has been refrenced into existance in continuity, the "Millenium Corporation". However that doesn't mean the entire story is continuity, yet.

"SW Adventure Journal: Starter?s Tale.? SHORT STORY ? West End Games ? Peter Schweighofer ? November 1994"

I'd have to look up this story to see what it is, but I can't remember why someone would think of it as infinities, it certainly doesn't have an infinities logo, as it predates it. I can't think of any AJ story being said to being "AU".

Hoth Stuff is tricky, while there is a way to make it fit, it hasn't quite been fully incorporated. However it does exist as a kind of in-universe myth told by rebels over a mug of ale (if its based on fact, it is unknown). So its not continuity exactly, but rather a legend that exists within the universe.

 

Ok, Starter's tale is an in-universe story told by Starter, a man known to tell tall tales about himself, so it says many people tend to not believe anything he says.

"These days very few people believe much of anything Starter says."

-pg 258

All or most of it may or may not have happened. There is no way knowing if any of his story is based on fact. The main issue in his story that appears contradictory, is that he claims to be the one that got ahold of the Shuttle Tyderium, and his story tells yet another version of how it was captured, and involves alot of rather improbably occurances of events (escaping interrogation from Vader, offered the chance to lead the rebels at Endor, etc.).

I wouldn't call the story itself "non-canon" as it involves an official continuity framing story of a man telling a tall tale to Plat O' Keefe within the galaxy far far away, what is suspect however is how accurate his story is.

 

>?SW Adventure Journal: Starter?s Tale.? SHORT STORY ? West End Games ? Peter Schweighofer ? November 1994<

Most of the story is a tall tale told by a lazy Rebel named Starter (he fights Boba Fett, traps Darth Vader, steals the shuttle Tydirium, etc). It's often placed in the Infinties or Apocryphal sections of fan timelines, which is inaccurate. The story is a guy telling a story, and it happened. The story he tells did not happen, which is where most of the confusion sets in.


>?The Marvel Series: Hoth Stuff. (#78)? COMIC BOOK ? Marvel Comics Inc. ? David Michelinie ? December 1980<

This has been worked into the continuity (sort of) by Planet Hoppers, the weekly online SWRPG feature (though it had been referenced years earlier in the Dark Empire Sourcebook.) The comic started out with Luke discovering a drifting vessel after the Battle of Hoth while looking for Wedge, who has yet to appear at the rendezvous point. He and his team discover a log recording made by Wedge, which tells a grim tale of his survival on abandoned Hoth. Wedge defeats Wampas and scavengers, and ultimately escapes in the scav transport. Wes Janson, his copilot, is not so lucky: he's killed by the scav leader, and Wedge buries him on Hoth. The story ends with Luke and his team finding Wedge making repairs on the outside of the transport (Luke thought Wedge had died too, since he wasn't aboard the ship.)

Now, the obvious contradiction here (there are several more minor ones that have yet to be dealt with) is that in later years, Wes Janson appeared as a fun-loving (and very alive) character in the X-Wing books and comics, set after ROTJ. According to Planet Hopper's Hoth segments (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031218hoth3, and Wedge's tale is mostly accurate, save for the fact that Janson did not die. That part of the story is used by Wedge to scare new pilot recruits when they meet Janson after hearing the tale. Planet Hoppers even managed to salvage the framing story with Luke, in an inspired bit of dialogue during the Adumar segments (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20040422adumar4):

DK: Wasn't your X-wing hit with an ion cannon during that engagement?
TC: I don't remember. I get shot down in so many engagements, Hobbie.

WJ: At least you weren't killed in action. Remember what Wedge used to tell people about me and the Battle of Hoth?

Wedge Antilles: Even Luke fell for that.

So while Hoth Stuff has been salvaged and brought into the modern continuity, it's no longer a grim tale of survival (as it had been intended) but sort of a cruel practical joke on poor Luke.

TC

 

Hoth Stuff's main "problem" now is that Leia tells Luke's co-pilot that Wedge and Luke grew up together, which is false. She may have been mistaking Biggs for Wedge (high and mighty princesses don't rub elbows with rank and file folks? I don't know...it doesn't say much for the Princess). Obvviously, to make the story work, one must assume that right after it ends, Wes knocks on the door and everyone is happy, happy again. Joke's on Luke!

 

Well oddly enough from what I've heard from Abel Pena, according to an off-hand quote in Rogue Squadron 3-D strategy guide, Luke implies that he himself, and wedge had spent some time on Tatooine together at some point in time in the past, and both have nostalgic memories of Beggar's canyon.

The biggest problems though that people seem to forget, is that during the Battle of Hoth, Wedge escaped the planet(WEG, Radio Drama), and was with the Fleet the next day(SOTE comic).

There was no time for him to be stuck there for weeks until the formation of Arbraa base, before he was found floating in space.

The only way it could fit? Is at some point after the SOTE day after events, there was a second Battle of Hoth for some reason, perhaps to return to pick up something important(something that the Imperials want too), and Wedge and a Janson got stuck there at that point in time, for a couple of weeks.

Janson who is only known as "Janson" in the story is another issue, however it may have been someone else named Janson that died. But Wes Janson is often mistaken for the Janson that actually died after the fact.

In Tie Fighter there is a ship named Janson, so if normal naming conventions were followed a Janson had to have died at some point...

However, how much of the story does exists as a real event wizards.com is not 100% clear, nor does it state when it was supposed to have taken place exactly. It did confirm that Arns Grimraker was a real character however, but it specifically says that the story may be embellished quite a bit, a tall tale so to speak;

"One of the most infamous issues of the Marvel Star Wars comic book series and the only one to focus heavily on Wedge Antilles, #78 depicted a grizzled, bearded Wedge with a decidedly noncanonical origin (seemingly borrowed from Biggs Darklighter) and a doozy of a story to tell his rescuers. Despite the oddities -- including the first appearance of a Kenner mini-vehicle in the series, strangely spacious Y-Wings (last seen in #49, "The Last Jedi!"), and the premature reports of Wes Janson's death -- David Micheline's script makes the story worth reading, especially if you picture Wedge embellishing the tale over a mug of lum with his fellow pilots. Artists Bob Layton and Luke McDonnell also created several memorable unnamed and "nontraditional" alien species for this issue, in addition to the creepy-as-hell Arns Grimraker. Look for Marvel's Star Wars #78, "Hoth Stuff," at your local comic shop, or look for the reprint in Fool's Bounty, volume 5 of Dark Horse's A Long Time Ago . . . series of Marvel collections."

However, ultimately the entire story can be fit into continuity as a competely accurate telling of events(including the of another Janson, other than Wes), by reinterpreting only a few key frames in the story, without destroying the narrative of the story.

Abel Pena, and I have discussed a way that the story can be fit in while leaving everything intact, and he has said he would use many of the ideas(include several he came up with) if he ever got the chance to write anything on the subject at some point.

I am however curious what the Dark Empire sourcebook Hoth Stuff refrence is however?

I do know that, Ice Scrabblers from the story made it into one of the Galaxy Guides..

 

>Hoth Stuff's main "problem" now is that Leia tells Luke's co-pilot that Wedge and Luke grew up together, which is false. She may have been mistaking Biggs for Wedge (high and mighty princesses don't rub elbows with rank and file folks? <

She's probably just mistaken. Since Wedge and Luke seem to have such fond memories of Begger's Canyon, that may have just confused her--or she may be deliberately feeding Barlan Hightower misinformation, for reasons unknown.

>Obvviously, to make the story work, one must assume that right after it ends, Wes knocks on the door and everyone is happy, happy again. Joke's on Luke! <

That would seem to be the implication. If that's the case, it seems unlikely that there was another Janson who died on Hoth. I couldn't see Wedge taking it so lightly.

>The only way it could fit? Is at some point after the SOTE day after events, there was a second Battle of Hoth for some reason, perhaps to return to pick up something important(something that the Imperials want too), and Wedge and a Janson got stuck there at that point in time, for a couple of weeks.<

They could have been rescuing Alliance personnel who were stranded on Hoth during the attack. People from the destroyed and crippled transports, etc. It'd be a nice link to TOTBH.

>I am however curious what the Dark Empire sourcebook Hoth Stuff refrence is however? <

Page 58 "After the Battle of Hoth, the icy plains were covered with scavs collecting weapons and gear for resale and personal use. Both Rebels and Imperials have made it a general policy to treat them as combatants and fire on them as soon as they appear."

>I do know that, Ice Scrabblers from the story made it into one of the Galaxy Guides..<

Yep, and a few other Hoth sources too.

TC

 

Wow... I haven't posted here in a while...this whole G level and C level stuff makes my head spin.

What happened to the Sue Rostini comment in Gamer #6?

Have those lunatic level of continuity freaks won??

 

Wow, Taloncard I still think you are overlooking the fact that in audio drama, and WEG, Wedge and Janson both make it off the planet fly directly to the rondevue point. In which Wedge was seen there the day after in the prologue of the SOTE comic. They were not shot down, and they made it out just fine. They left the planet when Luke did, and made it directly into space, where Luke had a few parting comments before they each went their seperate ways into hyperspace. They did not go into hyperspace in a freightor.

There was no time whatosever to spend 2+ weeks directly after the battle up to after the founding of the Arbraa base because they were already at the rondevue the day after.

This is why Abel Pena knows that for the story to fit it cannot be showing the "Battle of Hoth" but some other return engagement on the planet, set after the SOTE comic scenes. One can't simply ignore or dismiss the other stories, to try to take force Marvel into that period.

Also you seem to not know about the Begger's Canyon quote from Rogue Squadron 3d? I'll see if I can hunt it down for you. Abel Pena views it as evidence that Luke and Wedge at least spent time on Tatooine together in their youth, and had flown the Begger's Canyon run together a few times. Even if Wedge was only there for a very short period of time.