Are Tuskens All Bad?

LD, I completely disagree w/ you. The Tuskens are not going to learn anything from Anakin's actions. It will only infuriate them more and make them take retaliatory action against the settlers. Violence only begets more violence.

Furthermore, Anakin doesn't appear to be satisfied by his actions. He knows that his revenge will never bring back his mother. He also realizes he went to far and has to live w/ his becomming the cruel monster that he always hated. His revenge brought him no satisfaction and brought him face to face with the potential for evil living inside him.

 

Then the Settlers will learn it is wrong to Slaughter Tuskens... Then when the Settlers lie dead and Jabba no longer has any moisture farmers to intimidate and coerce... he will realise that bullying people for a profit is wrong, and if he wants a more spiritually fullfilling life, he will change his ne'er do well ways.

 

No, it didn't do him any good. But that doesn't mean I blame him for doing it. It might not be right, but as Padme said, he was human. I would have done the same thing in his shoes, and he doesn't deserve the mass condemnation that he gets.

 

That is where I disagree w/ you. He deserves condemnation for killing innocent children. This is inexcusable in my eyes. A_G, I highly doubt that you in his position would have killed a single innocent child.

 

No one has really condemed him... yet. Padme knows and covers up for him... that makes her an accomplice (At least by US law, maybe she has diplomatic imunnity when it comes to the genocide of a village... she is a senator after all). And Yoda seems to have seen it in a Vision... But He hasn't taken any action or confronted Anakin about it in any Source EU or not yet... so even if he doesn't aprove... he has allowed, and hasn't found the issue important enough to adress young Skywalker or Kenobi with it.

 

Did Yoda actually see what happened? My sense of that scene was that he felt Anakin's pain and suffering and heard Qui-Gon's plea, but he did not see what Anakin did. His words imply this, "Young Skywalker is in great pain". This indicates that he only felt his emotions and not the source of his pain and suffering.

 

He deserves condemnation for killing innocent children.

Not the kind you guys give him, which is a hell of a lot worse than what you give the Tusken adults for killing Shmi. You guys are willing to make excuses for them--"They were on her land, they didn't know better, it was OK in their society," etc.--but no one will accept a single reason Anakin might have killed the children--such as he was so insane from finding his mother brutally tortured to death that he wasn't thinking clearly and may not have even noticed kids were there until later.

 

Everybody who goes against your moral code is a barbarian.

I see.

Can you tell me why all of them are barbarians? Because they're against your moral code, right?

Wow.

Two hundred years from now, when moral rules extend over to ants, leeches, trees, curtains, desks, and chairs, I'm glad to know that I'll be seen as a barbarian by people for kicking my computer.

I'm truly done with you anakin_girl. I don't know how to argue with people who won't back up their arguments simply because they think their arguments and premises don't need a backing.

Until the whole Black rights/Women's rights/Fetal Rights/Animal Rights/Whatever's Rights moments came along, I'm willing to bet people thought that their premises were universal and therefore didn't need to be backed up either.

What we're discussing is far from reality, but...

*shakes her head sadly and walks away*

Depa Billaba

 

You're done with me? Good. I'm interested in arguing with people who believe in what they're saying, not people who want to argue just for the hell of it.

 

This segment of the discussion ends here.

Playing devil's advocate (especially in relation to fictional characters such as Tusken Raiders), when backed up with logical arguments to match, is perfectly acceptable. I could have sworn I made this clear earlier, but if not, consider this clear.

Arguing just for the hell of it is also fine so long as the terms of the TOS are followed. This is after all a discussion board.



So say all you like about Jedi vs Tusken morality... until I get a letter from the Jedi Commission for Anti-Defamation Acts, anyway.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Even when the "devil's advocate" argument is used as a bait?

I am being ganged up on here, and am not being allowed to hold my own.

I'll be happy to take this discussion off the thread and into PMs, Adam (in fact, I would rather) but I have never seen anything like this on any other Star Wars message board--such blatant bashing of the main character of the saga to the point of defending the sadists who tortured his mother to death. I never said Depa was doing anything she should be banned for--I said I was not interested in arguing that way and I felt she was doing it just to piss me off. Why is my opinion on this not considered valid?

 

This particular piece of information applies to everyone, so I am not keeping this post private. PM discussions can be held on people's own personal gripes if need be.

All opinions are valid, but not all opinions are for posting here.

Opinions of your fellow posters, of their morality, and whether or not they should post here or whether you feel they're worth talking to -- these are all perfectly valid opinions...

... but you have to keep them to yourself, else the TOS is violated, and I draw TEH BANSABER.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

He deserves condemnation for killing innocent children.

Not the kind you guys give him, which is a hell of a lot worse than what you give the Tusken adults for killing Shmi. You guys are willing to make excuses for them--"They were on her land, they didn't know better, it was OK in their society," etc.--but no one will accept a single reason Anakin might have killed the children--such as he was so insane from finding his mother brutally tortured to death that he wasn't thinking clearly and may not have even noticed kids were there until later.

A_G, I have never once justified the Tusken's action against Shmi. I have never even looked into their motivations. Frankly, I don't care because their actions were wrong. I have never given the Tuskens a free ride. I just don't think that Anakin should be given one either, unless he was temporarily insane. There is no evidence in the movie one way or another that he was temporarily insane, although judging by the confession scene he seemed to be fully aware of what he had done and this probably indicates that he was aware of what he was doing. If he was temporarily insane, you are right that he should not be condemned. But if he wasn't temporarily insane and if he was fully aware of what he was doing when he was killing innocent children, then he should be condemned.

A_G I don't put words into your mouth or ascribe an agenda to your posts, I would appreciate you not doing so w/ mine.

 

"That's an appalling reason for killing children. Can you think of any culture that supports this idea?"

Hmmm... no, I cannot.

So, can I take it that you have no 'good reason' for Anakin's killing of the children?

Then again, I also can't think of any culture that snatches people off of thier properties and tortures them for no good reason... there might be a culture like that in exsistance, but I really hope there isn't.

Well these things have been perpetrated by one group on another. For instance America used to support slavery, which involved women being kidnapped and some were tortured to death , but that doesn't make all Americans bad people, even at the time it was going on.
And slavery was part of the culture.
And I'm not picking on America, many countries/races have been involved in similar activities, but it doesn't make all of those from that race or country evil.

g

 

For instance America used to support slavery, which involved women being kidnapped and some were tortured to death , but that doesn't make all Americans bad people, even at the time it was going on.
And slavery was part of the culture.

Something being part of a culture doesn't make it OK. Slavery was not OK, neither was the kidnap and torture of Shmi.

Are all Tuskens bad? Hell if I know, but the ones we see in the movie--the ones who kidnapped and tortured Shmi; the ones who watched, could have done something, and chose not to; the ones who shot at the podracers; and the ones who beat up Luke--they were bad.

 

Sorry for the double post, but my edit time went out. A_G, I am sorry but saying that you think Anakin was wrong does not equal saying the Tuskens were ok. This isn't a game where one side has to be right and the other has to be wrong. This is a situation, IMHO, in which you have people on both sides that are wrong: the Tusken men and Anakin and innocents on both sides caught in the middle: Shmi and the Tusken women and children. If this makes me an Anakin hater, then so be it (even though I find this notion of hating a fictional character ludicrous. I don't hate real life people so I wouldn't hate a fictional character. I have better things to do w/ my life than hate a fictional character and spend my free time character assasinating him. I do however enjoy discussing the films, which includes discussing the main character Anakin and what I think of various actions he takes throughout the film.)

 

Then again, I also can't think of any culture that snatches people off of thier properties and tortures them for no good reason... there might be a culture like that in exsistance, but I really hope there isn't.

Back in the olden days, women were considered nothing. Even today, in certain countries, you have to pay a dowry to get your daughter married. But like gez said, that doesn't make the entire country is wrong. It makes the people who engaged in that practice wrong.

Depa Billaba

 

Yes, and the people we see in the movie are the people engaged in that practice.

SLR:

This is a situation, IMHO, in which you have people on both sides that are wrong: the Tusken men and Anakin and innocents on both sides caught in the middle: Shmi and the Tusken women and children.

No, that doesn't make you an Anakin-hater. Calling Anakin a "mass murderer" or a "baby-killer" or saying that even the Tusken men don't deserve what they got--that would make you an Anakin-hater.

I don't hate real life people so I wouldn't hate a fictional character. I have better things to do w/ my life than hate a fictional character and spend my free time character assasinating him.

Thank you! I'm glad someone else feels that way. For the record, it's not only Anakin-haters I don't get, although I talk about them the most because they seem to proliferate this board more than haters of other characters. I run a Star Wars message board and I don't allow any character assassination--not of Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, or Mara Jade either.

I don't like Palpatine but I don't look for threads where I can talk about how evil Palpy is and how he deserves to die. I don't like the Tuskens either but I mainly spend this thread ranting about them, and then only to counter the attacks made on Anakin.

 

Yes, and the people we see in the movie are the people engaged in that practice.

The bride's parents and the groom and the groom parents are the ones who are engaged in the practice. Not the bride's/groom's sister, aunt, uncle, cousins, neice, nephew, who can do nothing more than voice their opinions strongly even if they want to.

The Tuskens who actually tortured Shmi are the ones engaged in the practice. The women are like the bride's/groom's relatives. The children are children are children. It's not right for Anakin to slaughter everyone in the settlement just because a couple or even a substantial amount of people have wronged him somehow.

Depa Billaba

 

Calling Anakin a "mass murderer" or a "baby-killer" or saying that even the Tusken men don't deserve what they got--that would make you an Anakin-hater.

Huh? Isn't Anakin a self-confessed child slaughterer? If I call him a "child slaughterer" does that make me an Anakin-hater? Wouldn't that make Anakin an Anakin-hater?

I mean, he'll still be a child slaughterer regardless, but I'd like to get some clarification on this subject.

Are all Tuskens bad? I don't know, because I haven't seen them all.

 

Huh? Isn't Anakin a self-confessed child slaughterer? If I call him a "child slaughterer" does that make me an Anakin-hater?

Yes, it does. Anakin didn't say "I am a child slaughter." He said "I killed them all, not just the men, but the women, and the children too." There's a difference. Saying "I am a child slaughter" with a grin on his face--which is what people who say "Anakin is a baby killer" are implying happened--is entirely different.

 

Yes, it does. Anakin didn't say "I am a child slaughter." He said "I killed them all, not just the men, but the women, and the children too."

Now, I've only seen AOTC once, but isn't there another line in there? I seem to remember him saying "They're animals, and I slaughtered them like animals".

Now, if Anakin confessed to slaughtering Tuskens, and those Tuskens include children, then that would mean he confessed to slaughtering children.

I pretty sure my deductive reasoning checks out okay on this one.



Saying "I am a child slaughter" with a grin on his face--which is what people who say "Anakin is a baby killer" are implying happened--is entirely different.

Suffice to say that when I say that Anakin is a child slaughterer I am NOT implying that he has a grin on his face. And I've never called him a baby killer either.

 

Saying "I am a child slaughter" with a grin on his face--which is what people who say "Anakin is a baby killer" are implying happened--is entirely different.

Exactly. Anakin was not revelling in what happened, he was confessing his sins. He knew that the Dark Side had take a momentary grip on his reason, and that it was wrong for him to embrace that moment of anger and weakness. If he had not known it to be wrong, and to have been an act of passion, he would not have been near tears while confessing it.

 

No, that doesn't make you an Anakin-hater. Calling Anakin a "mass murderer" or a "baby-killer" or saying that even the Tusken men don't deserve what they got--that would make you an Anakin-hater.

I wonder how you'll feel about Episode III then, when Anakin will most likely do more wrong things (just speculating). It can be said that much of what sends him down the spiral to the Dark Side involves the murder of his mother. And he will be responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents later on. Put quite simply, he WILL grow into a mass-murdering tyrant. I hate to use real world examples but there have been many figures in history who have fed off a hatred from a previous "injustice" done to them and their loved ones, and it reminds me of Anakin. However, we should not sympathize with their actions when they raise their hand and cause the deaths of thousands of innocents, no matter what happened to them earlier in life. Some of the bad Tuskens did get their punishment (although not quite in the way the Jedi Council would've approved) but other Tuskens were probably innocent.

I don't think we're supposed to completely sympathize with Anakin at this point in AOTC. There's a reason why Lucas mentions women and children. The way I interpreted it in that scene, Anakin almost looked and sounded disgusted with how far he went during the massacre, and there is even a close up of Padme's distraught face. If you think the meaning is clear and that we should completely understand and excuse what Anakin did, I must strongly disagree with you there. By all means punish the criminals for what they did, but not in the way Anakin did it.

 

I wonder how you'll feel about Episode III then, when Anakin will most likely do more wrong things (just speculating).

I'm going to hate it with a bloody passion. I intend to wear black to opening night, carry a box of tissues, and throw the snotty ones at everyone who cheers when Anakin falls in the lava. (Yes, no matter how many people are cheering, I will have enough Kleenex.)

What's your point?

The only reason I'm going to see it is so I'll understand exactly what led up to Anakin's fall.

I don't think we're supposed to completely sympathize with Anakin at this point in AOTC.

I don't think we're supposed to kick him in the crotch over and over again screaming "Baby killer! Baby killer! Baby killer!" either.

Suffice to say that when I say that Anakin is a child slaughterer I am NOT implying that he has a grin on his face.

But you are only telling half the story, the half that makes Anakin look bad, and you are doing that on purpose.