Oceania Are we really the sporting nation?

Wedge: Hemingway's stories were almost exclusively about sports - boxing, bullfighting, fishing, hunting, baseball.

The reason Steve Waugh doesn't get a Nobel prize is BECAUSE he winds up in the bargain bin in six weeks.

You're in a forum devoted to discussing films that are over 20 years old and you're saying sports create more community togetherness and social spirit? When was the last time a sports forum had a social get together - without the crutch of a sporting event?

Sports don't create social spirit and togetherness. They create wars. That's what sports are - ritualised war. Not that I'm knocking it - better running around after a ball than shooting each other.

But when people go out in the streets and cheer, they don't do it because they love the sport, they do it because they have beaten the other team.

There's an old saying, "Nothing brings people together like a common enemy." That's what sport is about. They're not out in the streets saying, "I love football, and I'm proud to show it! I love the 500m hurdles, and I'm proud to show it!" They're out there
saying, "Our team is the best! HA HA!"

And then they forget about it until the next time their team (or country) is in the final. Look at the soccer. Same thing happened there. No one cares about soccer, but when we get a shot at getting into the world cup, people start cheering - not because they love soccer, but because they want to see them wipe out the other team. We lose, people forget about soccer.

How many people are in a forum talking about the olympics held in the 1970s? Or a football match in the 1970s?

You want to impress someone on a date - what do you do? Take them to a movie, or take them to a football game? Sure, some people might pick the football game, but the majority of folks go see a movie, or a play, or a band, or whatever. And if a guy wants to bore a girl to death, he's more likely to do it if he talks about sports than movies or books.

 

interesting debate we have going.

It can't be said that the contributions of sporting hero's to society is worthless. Nor can it be said that their contributions are more important then those of our TRUE hero's, the Sir Weary's and the Victor Chang's.

Sport has a place in society, if not for phsyical fitness which is ESSENTIAL, but to extend people who may not be academically gifted and boost their confidence.

The alternitive is for these people to be shunned by an intellectually elitist society and end up on the wrong side of the tracks.

think about it.

 

So instead it's the sports ppl who do the shunning? wheter it's sports fans calling non fans "nerds", or by redirecting revenue into something who's sole purpose is to entertain the masses for 2 hours on a saturday so they don't notice what a crummy government we have?

And further to Ozhaggiss' comments on unity acroos the genres,
I too have witnessed ppl prepared to kill each other over the different colours in their footy jumpers.
Do we want our kids raised into a society we're violence is acceptable if there's a ball involved? I sure don't.
Say what you like about us "nerds" but I've yet to see fist fights over who has the better coloured sabre.

 

Sadly the intellectual groups are becoming the minority, and are beinf shunned by sports supporters.

 

Sith Magician - if you've never seen a fist fight over the color of a lightsaber, you obviously haven't been to a sci-fi convention lately...

 

OZHaggis, actually, to be honest, a few years ago I was at a Trek convention wearing a Star Wars Tshirt.
Only one guy had anything at all to say about it, and frankly I was surprised at even one saying anything.
I'd still rather do that though, then wander into a group of opposing suppoters wearing the wrong shirt during a footy match

 

I thought this subject started off as a joke. And then it turned serious for a while, before this page started up.

Watch movies like Bloody Wednesday and tell me what value that has to art. Or listening to Matchbox 20 is about as much fun as shoving tacks in my tongue.

Hemmingway wrote about a lot of things. Sport was only a part of it. Love and War were a bigger part of his life and the world is better off because of his take on them. For Whom the Bell Tolls is fast becoming one of my favourite novels. It's excellent. Metallica also wrote a song about the novel too. I'm lucky enough to have exposed myself to that as well. It's one of my most favourite songs. I'm glad I can look at all aspects of the entertainment industries and get a lot of different takes on things.

Here's something else a lot of you won't get to have a take on because you can't open your mind to other's pleasures. On a rugby league newsgroup (many exsist by the way) a constant contributer came out here from England to meet others, AFTER both the English and Australian seasons were over. Then a group of Australians went over to England from the newsgroup for the League tour. I'm willing to say that's better than any group meeting organised and performed on here.

The same newsgroup often takes part in many discussions on past sporting events, whether that be the recent Mundine fight or the first ever league grand final.

If you walked the streets of Newcastle or waited till 3AM in the morning to see them return to the city from hte NRL grand final, you'd know what true community spirit is. I've never seen people enjoying themselves so much. And you know what, I went to every game this year with the exception of Melbourne, Auckland and Townsville (for obvious reasons). I can recall every minute of the grand final like you (and I) could a Star Wars movie.

What's wrong with me liking sports? All I've seen in this thread is a lot of 'getting back' at sporty types.

Now, I'm off to see my favourite actor's latest movie.

BTW, Steve Waugh has written about 6 books in his time. How many literary masters in here can match that? The publishers wouldn't employ him to write if he wasn't worth it.

 

A meet overseas? Heh, I'm saving up to meet friends I met on a Sci-fi Forum dedicated to the TV show "Roughnecks: The Starship Troopers Chronicles" in San Diego next year.

And better than anything organised here? You know people have even formed extremely close relationships because of this place. Just look at Scream & Jenna.

 

Trashing a particular bad movie (or book, for that matter) isn't much of an argument against the value of good movies.

That's like trashing sport because of, oh, say Anthony Mundine's contribution to boxing.

 

Yeah, good on em. But that did devolop after they met. Or I'm guessing anyway.

Like I said though, I have nothing against other forms of entertainment. I think the discussion would be better off talking about funding for medicines and such.

My mate is a biologist and he wastes my time with the discussion... but he was with me at 3AM that night too. I'm glad I'm exposed to everything in this matter.

 

Yes it may have developed after they met, the point is they met because of a community of Sci Fi fans got together, ppl with common interests, and they aren't the only 2, there's many couples who've met here actually...

Anyway, to bring it back on topic Wedge, yes we could also state that funds are needed in medical and other research, other than movies and sport, the point being made however, is sport really worth the money being put in? do we, as a community, really get a worthwhile return on our standard of living when it comes to the billions that go into sport?
Yes it keeps you fit, if you are the one playing it, but when it comes to sporting events that take over a week or so of free to air programming, you then have family members unable to move away from the box, it then it ceases to be about keeping fit and healthy, and more about causing instability in many homes because of one or more members not taking part in family activities, and instead swearing at a TV for days at a time.
I'm all for ppl keeping themselves fit, but not to pay someone millions so we can watch them do it, while our health system is in crisis, and many other worthwhile endeavours recieve no support.

 

Oooooh this is going to be fun. I would just like to point out to Wedge, that attitudes to sport in this country can be very detrimental to the futures of many young people.

I hate sport. Everyone who knows me knows I hate sport. But unkown to most I have an extremely good reason for hating sport.

I used to be very good at sport. And not just one. I have been selected for and played in 4 state teams, in three team sports (Basketball, Baseball, and Softball).

On top of that, I also have been in many state and national competitions for martial arts (Judo & Jujitsu).

I was on top of the world. I was well liked and respected. And then I got a major knee injury and was told I could no longer compete.

Many things changed. I found that I had missed phenomenal amounts of crucial schooling due to my own parents attitude that sport is more important than education. The time I spent training for each sport limited the amount of time I had for study.
I blew my finals at high school.

Not only that, I found peoples attitudes to me changed, because I no longer fit into the stereotype of an athlete or sportsman. People lost respect for me, proving to me that people respect the ability not the person. And none of my trophies or martial arts belts seem to prove anything, because I have trouble doing what I used to be able to.

And now that I have no qualifications, or decent education, and I no longer have any chance of going professional with any sport, I sit here on my computer, recieving the dole, getting rejected for every job I apply for. And all because of peoples attitudes to sports in this country.

I am finally getting my life back together, going to TAFE to study my passions, Computering and Art History.

I have non-sporting icons like Linus Torvalds and Todd McFarlane. I feel sorry for anyone who has to go through what I went through, and I wish that people could see what effects thier attitudes have on the young and impressionable.

That is my two cents worth.

 

-- when it comes to sporting events that take over a week or so of free to air programming, you then have family members unable to move away from the box, it then it ceases to be about keeping fit and healthy, and more about causing instability in many homes because of one or more members not taking part in family activities, and instead swearing at a TV for days at a time.

My house worked on exactly the opposite principle. A lot of the time I spent with my dad was either out in the backyard, or in front of the TV watching the Tests and Bathurst.

 

It just occured to me, wedge, that we have as much chance of changing these people's opinions as we do of converting people to Star Wars on a sports board.

 

Sil, what I said there wasn't just based on personal experience,
I've seen it in many homes, and heard it from many ppl about members of their own family.
To me, it's just like having a family member addicted to slot machines, it's not recreation for those ppl, it's an illness.

 

The same goes with me, SM. We just live on opposite sides of the coin.

 

thats a hell of a huge coin

 

What I do not understand is how as a nation we support Champions, or almost will be.

But in the struggle to get there-we don't give a {xxxx}swear word).

We loved football(round ball type) on the night-but never watch it when it's played.

We watch cricket in droves, but never complain about bad attitude shown by players.

The question was "Are we really the sporting nation" we are, but only when we win.

Otherwise we do nothing but complain.....

 

What about when that walker lost at the Olympics (Yeah I know it's a bad example if I can't remember her name)? Everyone cared about that. The South Sydney fans who had their team kicked out of the competition. How's that for community spirit? They got them reinstated!

Everyone who follows a team has to put up with the lean years as well as the good. It's what believing in something is about.

Sil is right, but there is a Broncoes fan on the Usenet who is a major Star Wars fan. But unfortunately we hate each other's guts on most opinions. But we get along cause we know we're all in it together.

Nothing is going to stop me from going to, watching on TV or competing in sport. I love all aspects of it. Right down to the sweat or teaching my girlfriend the finer points of throwing a spiral pass like Andrew Johns.

BTW, that's rotten about the knee. I've had similar obsticles thrown in my way. I was a schoolboys rep in league before my accident and after that the closest thing to league I've played is OzTag. But I did take my high school to the semis of the NSW Basketball knock out cup and I scored 37 points in the game we lost. I wouldn't know what I'd do if I actually wouldn't be able to physically play something. No doubt I'd find something competitive though.

Anyway, that Marlon Brando sure has gotten fat!

 

Talk about a thread that's gone way off topic. It started out as a thread about Australian sporting teams' recent performance. Now it's turned in to a sports bash. Where'd that come from? Gecko and Wedge both have good points but don't seem to be listening to each other's points.
It's all about entertainment.
Are movies art? I'd say so. How about sport? When I watch top athletes do their thing then I certainly see artistic value in it. If you don't like sport then you don't like it. No problem. I like playing it. I love having a good game of basketball or something else.
I also love watching it - whether it's a group of kids I'm coaching or the world's best. It's great to watch a good contest. Especially when you see the skills shown at the top level.
You get some nuts who take it too far but I find from my experience that that's rare. When I go to a football game for example, it's usually with my dad & brothers. They're Eagles fans and I'm a dockers fan which means that someone always ends up sitting in the middle of the opposing team's supporters. That's never been a problem. There's a bit of friendly ribbing maybe but nothing more.
I agree that sport does get taken too far by a lot of people but I'd say the same about a lot of things. I think that millions of dollars is too much for an athlete to be paid but I also believe that it's too much for an actor or producer to be paid. Does anyone really need that much money? I certainly do't begrudge top athletes the recognition they get. They put in just as much effort as someone studying at university. Just because it's physical rather than mental makes it no less an achievement. Saying it's any less would be just as bad as sport jocks criticising non-sporting nerds.
So can we please get back to the original topic and get off this pointless sport sucks/sport rules debate. You can't argue over something that's based on personal tastes.

As for the original topic. I don't think recent events mean Australian sport's declining, any more than several wins in a row make our teams unbeatable. No-one can be the best all the time. I'm no fair weather fan. After all, I'm a Fremantle Dockers supporter.

 

::HawkNC continues to keep score between Gecko and Wedge::

In all seriousness, since people's opinions aren't going to change because of what's said here, I'll just voice my own. I happen to like sport. I'm an Essendon fan (don't hurt me!) and I play a little bit of soccer. Not very good at it, but I still play. However, sport IS something that can sometimes promote violence. You only have to look at Australia's reception at Uraguay to know that sport is taken far too seriously in many parts of the world, and it's a miracle these things don't happen here, in "the sporting nation". Yes, without sport we'd all be fat lazy slobs. But it's not sport that's the problem, it's the value placed upon it by society. Of course we all can't be physicists, doctors and the like, and sport an excellent way to achieve something outside of academic pursuits. But I think, as a nation, we do place too much emphasis on it. Why be the Sporting Nation, when we could be the Smart Nation, or the Knowledge Nation even? (Note, that's not really a plug for Labour, I just thought it sounded good.) Why do we pay thousands of dollars for tertiary education, when Australian soccer would have recieved millions simply for qualifying to get into the World Cup, something that scores of countries do? Intellect and sport are both important, but a balance needs to be found.

 

An interesting example of violence at other cultural events include riots at one of Mozart's premieres right up until the Big Day Out last year. That Pearl Jam concert in Europe.

What about Martin Bryant's collection of videos? Sport is hardly the only thing that invokes passion for going a bit wild now and then.

Once again, the comparing of one form of entertainment against another is pointless.

I have no problem with the knowledge nation idea. Sports people pay a lot of attention to schools. Have a look at the NBA's Stay in School program. It's been carbon copied by sports organisations all over the world.

 

*ahem*

<Flinstones>
Ra-ant! Rant-o-rama!
It's the biggest flame war ever seen!
From the sporting fi-eld
To your own pers-on-al p-c screen..
</Flinstones>


That's my 2 cents













PS....Go the non-sporterers

 

Pffft. This is just the Falklands of flame wars.

 

And now its about causes of violence?

There's only one thing that causes violence. People.

A murderer in the 60's admitted to killing his third victim after seeing Psycho. They asked Hitchcock what he thought, and he said, "I wonder what he watched before he killed the first two."

I don't really have a problem with sports. It would be a boring world if everyone was the same. (Unless they were all like me, but that's another thread). But I take exception to the idea that sports are somehow more socially significant than movies, books, etc. I very much disagree. But I guess thats no surprise now.

And speaking of funding, just want to mention a little anecdote from my time at Uni. Friends of mine were doing Art, and the department was so badly funded they had to buy most of their own materials - and I mean even cheap stuff like paper, and such.

Then I did a stint in the bio-med department and they were throwing money around like you wouldn't believe. Someone needed some new enzymes, $500 for 10 ml of the stuff - sure, no worries. Order it, we'll fix it up with the dept later. We need a new $3000 machine. No worries.

Now, regardless of who is more "deserving" of the funding, it just amazed me how much money was thrown around by those who had it, when those who didn't have it would have been happy just to have the change they threw away ...