Chic, IL Are You Ready For Some Paintball????

Discussion in 'Mid West Regional Discussion' started by JodoKast74, Sep 13, 2006.

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  1. darthgoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    You know I'm going to ask for empirical data to support your claim right? ;)

    I think a flatline is an acquired taste. I know Brickout and Darbycrash swear by theirs but they have done their homework on them and then some. Their markers are tweaked to specifically take advantage of that particular barrel.

    I'm more of a zero maintenance fellow. I want to beat the crap out of my marker and still have it shoot and I've not much patience for tweaking. That said, I'm sticking with my Lapco 12" Big-shot. I am looking at the Dye Boomstick though that is a spendy proposition.
  2. QuicksilverG4 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 1
    I'll see what I can do! I'm currently using a 14" J&J ceramic barrel, which I love because of it's accuracy, but I'm looking for the longer 16" or 20" model to increase my range (and boost marker efficiency). As a bonus, you can shoot right through broken paint (a handy side effect of the ceramic coating). If you want to try it out and possibly take it off my hands (I'd like to get $25), let me know.

    I really don't think you can tweak your marker to increase the accuracy of the Flatline (besides setting the velocity as close as you can to the 280 fps par). It's the paint that matters--from what I've read, tiny imperfections in each paintball cause some pretty serious issues when it comes to consistency.
  3. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    I ain't no rocket scientist, but I'm a gonna have ta disagree with you.

    Backspin would help both stabilization and travel through the air. Paintballs act more like water balloons in flight, wobbling and deforming as the air hits them. With the backspin, gyroscopic forces keep the paintball flying with less deviation. Also, the spin provides a more laminar airflow around the paintball, reducing drag and extending range. Any inaccuracies at long range would have more to do with defects in the paintball shell, allowing it to stretch more or less than the previous ball. I've seen brand new, high quality paint be scarily accurate, as well as paint from "the last time we played" fly off in every direction except where you were aiming.

    I don't have a high-speed camera to catch the spin, but I'll bet chronos set up and 0, 50 and 100 feet would tell an interesting story.

    As far as them being ugly, I guess that's personal taste. I like the look. I don't use a Flatline because they are LOUD. So much in paintball depends on the other guy not knowing where you are. Having this big pop go off every time is bad for business.
  4. JodoKast74 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2001
    star 4
    You know, I'm going non hi-tech and just bringing a paintbrush and get you guys that way.
  5. darthgoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    Now that is old school.

    I'm sure peaches would be all, "Guys I'm out. My paintbrush is brokezorz." [insert tantrum here]
  6. EliteMacFreak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2006
    star 1
    Er, wouldn't he complain that it was jammed?

    Hazmat--about the Flatline: I did a considerable amount of research, and the consensus seems to be that you're trading range for accuracy. Simply put, the reason why a standard rifled barrel gives bullets (regardless of their shape) a better range and higher accuracy than a smooth bore barrel is because it imparts a spin perpendicular to the axis of motion (for the mathematical version of my explanation, read about the conservation of angular momentum).

    I would like to conjecture that there is one more thing happening to a paintball fired by a Flatline; namely, the backspin, generating friction between the surface of the ball and the air molecules surrounding it should be creating a cushion of air for the paintball to ride upon. This high pressure cushion is likely being trapped under the ball by the air that the ball is traveling through. The most interesting question that this brings up is: can something jolt the axis of rotation off-kilter? I think that Tippmann used to make a barrel called the "Apex" that actually allowed you to fire shots that curved in any direction--up, down, or to the side. Perhaps some of our Flatline-toting friends can tell us whether or not they've ever seen a shot smoothly veer off in a strange direction because the paintball was imbalanced or because it was stuck by a cross-breeze.

    By the way, how much louder are Flatlines? I don't remember ever hearing one!

    (By the way--this is still Bryan! I simply changed my name to something a bit more timeless.)

    Edit: Just to bring this back to Star Wars a bit, I was going through this Wikipedia article on paintball terminology, and found the following term described as so:

    Chewbacca/Chewie - A teammate who yells/screams out commands, locations, information that few people, if any can understand. Can also be a person making a "Battle cry" while running down the field in desperation. Another term to describe this act is "Wookie rage."
  7. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    Wow, this guy did too. He must have been REALLY bored.

    Your bullet analogy doesn't work for paintball. In a bullet, a rifled barrel does indeed help accuracy because the axis of spin is along the direction of travel, encouraging the bullet to not veer left, right, up or down. With a Flatline barrel the axis of spin is perpendicular to the direction of travel and would only encourage the paintball to not veer left or right, but have no bearing on what it did up and down. It does, however, also have the effect of moving the separation point of the boundary layer airflow further back along the paintball, reducing drag and in turn adding range and accuracy. A golf ball takes this one step further with the dimples on its surface which move the separation point even closer to the back of the ball. The Magnus Effect also comes into play, which is why a paintball from a Flatline will often start to rise up in its trajectory before falling. Baseball pitchers have been using this for decades to throw curveballs. There have even been a couple of boats that were designed to use this aerodynamic principle.

    [image=http://static.flickr.com/1/754059_8248e2fe6d_m.jpg]

    I would definately say you get more range, but I honestly don't think you are giving up accuracy. Even research done by Airgun Designs indicates that by and large the paintball itself is the determining factor in shooting consistancy and the barrel is mainly there for looks (DISCLAIMER: when following that link they state clearly and frequently that backspin barrels were not included in the testing). I have pulled off some amazingly consistent and accurate shots with a $15 Tippmann barrel and been flustered with a $100 Smart Parts one.

    A Flatline can do that: just don't hold the gun perfectly upright. If I turned a gun with a Flatline clockwise on its side...well, nothing would happen because the paintball would fall out of the barrel and back into the hopper. But if I turned it counter-clockwise 90 degrees and fired, upon exiting the barrel the paintball would fly off in a graceful and definate arc to my left.


    I think they're insanely loud, but that's a personal opinion. We can do some test shots in your general direction with a Flatline and my ported barrel so you can hear the difference (which is what I did once long ago).
  8. Sithman Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7

    [face_laugh] That just made my morning.

    Along with the gift exchange at the holiday party, plastic lightsaber fights at the BBQ, and Fuddruckers after the suburban book clubs, Peaches having to sit out half the games at paintball due to some sort of marker malfunction is one of the great traditions of Chicago Force.
  9. darthgoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    The Flatline has a very loud and distinctive "pop".

    My Lapco Big Shot is pretty loud too. Nowhere near the Flatline though.

    Anyone ever messed with an Ion? I just noticed these markers. I'm not considering buying one just curious if anyone has used them and can back up or strike down their claim of a super high performance marker for under $300.
  10. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    Now that it's not late-at-night-falling-asleep-at-keyboard, I think that's an unfair statement. They are among the loudest I've heard but it's not, ya know, 12 gauge loud.

    I would love to have one, by the way.
  11. EliteMacFreak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2006
    star 1
    Haz, that's a heck of an article, but if you look at the results section (where he should have started in the first place), this very long-winded guy does a little too mcuh hand-waving without showing his calculations. Now, that said, I haven't taken dynamics, nor have I studied the Magnus effect (as a EE, I study quantum physics, not macro-physics). Personally, I'd prefer to play rather than attempt to prove or disprove his work, so we'll go with your explanation rather than mine. :)
  12. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    Agreed. I was going to link directly to the results page, but got lazy. I think the bottom line is that paintballs are too random for any method to truly improve performance beyond what we already have. Even if you can get the shell to spin, you still have the liquid center that is going to be very uncooperative to any type of spin.

    Goat, I have never seen or played with an Ion, but Warpig seems to like them, and I generally trust their judgement. I suggest skipping directly to the "Testing" page.
  13. Mos_Eisleian_Radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2000
    star 4
    How many people usually go in on 2000 paintballs? I've only been to the first time we did this, back in 2002.

    I'm trying to decide between this and the Music Box Theatre's 24-Hour Horor Movie Marathon which will feature an appearance by Joe Dante (schedule permitting).

    Phil
  14. darthgoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    Usually it is a 2 person split as 1k rounds will see you through the day in most cases. If you are of the speedball spray and pray mold of balling then expect to shoot through around 1250 or so. It really depends on your play style.

    That Ion review is great! They go into plenty of detail. It looks like the Ion is quite simple compared with other electro-pneumatics. Hmmm...Femme would have my head if I did so I won't. For now.
  15. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    Funny that some of the discussion here would lead me to an example of geek love...

    The Ion does look good. Since I recently realized all my markers are over 10 years old, I've thought about upgrading, probabaly to an A-5. Part of me wants to check out the new Tippmann C-3 or Triumph, just to see what they're like, though.
  16. EliteMacFreak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2006
    star 1
    I'd say that 95% of the people there go in on a 2000 round case, so if you're looking for someone to split the cost, you're likely to find someone willing.

    The Ion does look pretty cool, although it's suited for speedball more than it is for scenario paintball.


    Hazmatt--I wouldn't get the C3, period, because it's a pumped semi-auto weapon. Of course, you've been playing a lot longer than me, so you probably don't find that to be as much of a drawback. Another thing is that the report is a heck of a lot louder, so for someone who doesn't like the sound output of Flatlines, the C3 is going to be a little bit upsetting. Of course, you can comfort yourself with the thought of all of the money you're saving on CO2/N2. If you want to try out my A5, let me know.

    On a side note, I just bought another 3000 psi/48cu N2 tank, so I take back what I said about selling my old one. ;)
  17. Hawk-Bat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2003
    star 4
    the ion is great that is what I have. You can change almost any part of the marker to suit what want and need.

    The things that I suggest to change if you were to get a ion first thing would be the feed neck to a clamping one,

    the regulator though some people like it I didn't get as good performance as i am having with my CP reg,

    the barrel; the ion stock barrel isn't to great and can use any thread from freak to ultralite that uses impluse threads, though you can change the breach to use autococker threads.

    The trigger is one big area you should change too since the standard one is touble trigger plastic but there are much better metal ones with more adjustablity.

    All in all the ION is great. get great performance as many top level guns that are over $1,000 for 300 or less without upgrades.


    ps: it was the gun I used last year for the first time, none of the other guns I used at CF events were Ions.
  18. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    This lady once asked me to work on her computer. It was a brand new 486 with a Pentium processor.

    I know, I've read the reviews. It would be a novelty purchase more than anything. I mean, c'mon, paintballs propelled by actual combustion gases? Awesome!

    As far as your A-5...I'm not really in the market, but we'll see how my mood is (and how cheap you go :p). Can you bring it on the 14th? Honestly, I go out about once a year, and I really need a new video card.
  19. EliteMacFreak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2006
    star 1
    Oh, I'm not selling my A5--I was just offering to let you try it out if you think it'll help you decide what you want. ;)

    Edit: For all of you A5 users out there, I was having trouble with my marker last night, and wandered into two very helpful things on the A5 Owner's Group (www.a5og.com):

    1) The last time I played, my cyclone feeder started having problems loading shots into the barrel, which turned out to be caused by lack of pressure (but not from my tank). Apparently, I had bumped the line that carries air to the cyclone, and because of that, I had choked off nearly all airflow to the device. In order to fix it, I had to ensure that the little black hose was connected perpendicular to the flat-blade screwdriver notch on each of the bolts. To see pictures of what I'm talking about, visit the A5OG thread here.

    2) After fixing that problem, I went through a couple pages of topics on the forum and came across a couple of guys who polished out the internals of their A5s with a brillo pad so that the bolt could slide back and forth more easily. Since I needed to oil my marker anyway, I followed their instructions, and it made a noticeable improvement in my marker's performance. It's amazing how poorly the bolt normally slides back and forth--there's so much excess metal and paint overspray in there that it's a miracle that the bolt doesn't grind itself into dust. To see this thread, click here. Some guy on the second page practically made the entire tube mirrored.

    ------

    Last, but not least, check out this image (courtesy of Google Earth!):

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/QuicksilverG4/BlastCamp.jpg]
  20. Brickout Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2005
    This is true, the flatline is an acquired taste. But for the most part it's worked very well for me. The flatline is very picky on what paint you use. The PMI Prem. paint that Blastcamp uses woks very well in it. Cheap garbage Wal-Mart does not. This is why I have two barrels; the flatline and a 12" Lapco Bigshot. Loud? Yeah it's louder than most barrels. But not "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?" loud. Ugly...whaaaa?! Man I think it's the best looking barrel out there for the A5, it looks like a slienced barrel, IMHO. For everthing you could possibly want to read on the flatline go hereor here.

    Fluted and or rifled barrels? I'm not going to even touch that one. That subject has pretty much been beat to death on every paintball forum on the net.

    The Apex barrel, made by Ben Tippmann (yes he is related to the Tippmann family, he decided to start his own business). This is a really interesting barrel. You twist the part on the end and you can curve the ball up, down, left or right. I've seen them in action, they're really cool.

    The ION, I think it's a nice marker for the cash. It hardly needs any upgrades and it's very lightweight.
  21. Hazmatt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 4
    I mis-read. You're just selling the trigger. Got it.
  22. JodoKast74 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2001
    star 4
    Here's my outfitt and weapon for the 14th. Be prepared....

    [image=http://www.contractor.edu/tradesk1lp/painter.gif]
  23. darthgoat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2001
    star 4
    I just fixed Tate's spare A-5 which had this exact issue. It actually had two issues. I'm not sure what the hell the guy who put the Flatline did to that gun but I found a loose o-ring in the damn chamber. I went through the schematics and found no piece that was missing an o-ring. WTF? That was preventing the bolt from being thrown back all the way to recock the gun. The second problem was twisting the cylinder that advances the cyclone. The hose was also knicked so a little bit of air escapes on each feed but it is enough to rotate the cylinder.

    Also, I've now got an E-Grip so it is on! I still have to pick up the double trigger kit. Whether or not I have it for gameday remains to be seen.
  24. Fett402 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2005
    star 3
    OK...as of right now it looks like I will be closing on my townhouse on Friday the 13th!! (That can't be good) So me making it on Saturday probably isnt gonna happen.... :(
  25. EliteMacFreak Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2006
    star 1
    Have you tried polishing your internals, or is that something that you'd rather not mess with? Right now I'm actually going to do a second pass to see if I can go for that mirrored look and feel.

    Heh--we seem fated to be the Neo and Agent Smith of paintball (ie, both of us grow proportionately more powerful, but in different ways). I wanted a reactive trigger with adjustable travel, so I just bought a response trigger for my A5. How much are you willing to spend for a double trigger? Since I appear to be the resident eBay freak, I should easily be able to get you a double trigger by Friday or next Monday at the latest for $15-18 (it takes about a minute to install, btw).
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