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PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    They're micromanging things so that they go off as planned. It's about timing. Timing is everything. That means Palpatine wants the Clone Army and the Droid Army to be found by the Jedi, at a specific point in time, so that he can manipulate Padme's stand-in into calling for Emergency Powers to be given to him. By doing so, playing up that the situation is about to grow dire and that time is of the essence, Jar Jar would hear that something needs to be done and done quickly. To ensure a first strike is launched before the opposition does it first and does major damage. Palpatine doesn't want the Senate to be mired in endless debate and he wants the Jedi to to believe that Sifo-Dyas did this on his own, which is important in having them find Kamino first and being backed into a corner.

    Why is it not accurate? Using the toxic dart is specific. It is an item from a world that's hidden and is being used by the guy who is living there and has been donating his DNA and has been hired to kill a senator. That's about as specific purpose as you can get. Remember in "Die Hard With A Vengeance", when the binary liquid explosive was identified as the explosive used at the start of the film. That was a specific type of explosive which could be traced easily and it was discovered that a large amount had been obtained by Simon Gruber. Similar deal. If it was meant to be less obvious, something more common and not as easily traced would have been employed. Likewise, having Jango using a toxic dart to kill Zam before the Clone Army is found is not a coincidence. It is an important plot detail that drives the story forward. It is part of the MacGuffin.

    Just about everyone in the world figured this out over ten years ago. Except for you, Samuel and Chancellor.

    It is necessary when you've formulated a plan a number of years ago and want it to go accordingly. If the plan is to send a Jedi out to check on the clones, then it wouldn't make sense to not do that. That's like telling the person at Pizza Hut that you're sending someone to pick up an order, but you decide not to. Not that you forget to do it and not that you want to pull a prank, but because you don't want to send someone after saying that you would. That's what you are having trouble understanding.

    It means that I already answered it to someone else and don't feel like typing out again.

    That's not what I said. I said it didn't matter if Anakin was on Tatooine or Naboo, the fact was that he was on Geonosis which was close to both planets, compared to Kamino. If Anakin had stayed on Naboo, Obi-wan could still transmit to him from Geonosis. Just as he could from Tatooine, which wasn't as far as Naboo. Now, if they whole thing was so broken that he couldn't do that, then you'd have a case. But then, Obi-wan would just settle for finding one that he could use from inside the Droid Foundries and try to get a message out, before being found out.

    And what you don't get is that doesn't stop the Sith. Palpatine couldn't have known of the risks during the Battle of Coruscant, much less that Anakin would reach him and that he wouldn't turn, but he still went with that plan. There were risks in every plan that he, Dooku and Vader came up with. If all he ever did was worry about potential risks, he wouldn't have conquered the galaxy and held on to it for twenty four years.

    Needing and wanting are two different things. That's what you fail to grasp. Palpatine wants these events to occur.

    Meaning anything from Kamino that's specific to their world could have been used. Instead, a toxic dart which is specific was used to eliminate Zam. Jango using that weapon was specific in killing her quickly and efficiently and as far as he knows, wouldn't get him caught. If not for Nute's petty revenge, the Sith could have used something else from Kamino to lure the Jedi there.

    It makes sense when you want a body to be found, in order to draw attention to it and the manner in which that person died. The body would be found by local security. Word would reach the Temple and Obi-wan would be sent there to see if there was relevance or not. Obi-wan looks at the body, sees the dart and says that he will take it and go back to the Temple for analysis. As to instincts, the Jedi trusted their instincts that someone was behind the Federation's invasion ten years earlier. Luke's instincts told him that confronting Vader was ultimately the right idea, rather than listening to his common sense which told him that he should avoid doing so, because he didn't want to kill him.

    Who is to say that he didn't? Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Lando was promoted to general, but we never saw if he was qualified. We only have his word that he was.

    See above.

    QUI-GON: "Nothing happens by accident."

    I take the word of a Jedi who believes that fate has something in mind for people, rather than random occurrence. The same way I do with a Sith Lord who wanted something to happen specifically.

    PALPATINE: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet! It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator."

    So again, Palpatine creating a trap and allowing certain details to be made available, in order to lure the Alliance into a death trap is sound and logical. But allowing for the toxic dart from Kamino to be used to bring the Jedi to Kamino, then on to Geonosis and then starting the war isn't logical. Tell me again how that is not consistent.

    Money can smooth anyone over. That's why greed is a powerful ally. Anyway, I didn't say that Dooku had to tell Jango to dump it in a public place. Just that would be an option because you went on about finding a body somewhere. That point is to use the dart to eliminate Zam and then leave. The body would be found either way. Be it in a back alley, or in front of the Senate.

    No, he was waiting for her to show up at the rendezvous point so that he could kill her when she reported back to him, with the success of the mission. But in the process of waiting for her, he sees the chase through his helmet display and follows.

    But you keep missing the point. The only reason someone showed up is because that someone was lured there, which would happen if it was an intentionally lure. This is Darth Sidious. He let the new Death Star plans and the shield generator's location be left someplace that the Bothans could find it, knowing that they would tell Mon Mothma and that the Alliance would seek to launch a strike against them. Or was that coincidence too?

    Can be, doesn't mean that he wants it to be that way.

    Yet time and again, the Sith took very great risks to achieve their goals. Even with careful planning, there were variables and it still didn't stop them.

    And any number of alternatives would have happened, as I keep pointing out.

    More money would assuage his issues and he would be stupid, because he did. He hates the Jedi more than the Sith. And if the Sith can smooth it over, so be it. Boba went to work for the Sith, so obviously he has no issues with any betrayal or not.

    On the other hand, Jango could not think it was a set up and think that the Jedi were smarter than Dooku gave them credit for. Or, that Jango did object but was told that it was important to lure a bunch of Jedi into a death trap, then Jango would go along with it. There are different emotional reactions one could have.

    But not impossible, because there are others who have been out to Kamino over the centuries and thus would know about it.

    Could, doesn't mean that it would happen. It's always 50-50.

    I have. See ROTJ, where such actions were first demonstrated. See the quote from the actor playing Palpatine, who said that his character was behind just about everything. See Lucas who said that he pulled the strings of everyone and that the second step of the character was obtaining Emergency Powers.

    As to proof, show me proof that Palpatine was waiting for the bill to pass. Show me proof that it was a coincidence that the toxic dart was used. Show me proof that Palpatine was going to let Dooku attack first. You call what I say circular logic, when you don't get it. What we see is what the plan was. The movie was designed so that you have these different, seemingly random events occur. But they're all connected together by a plan years in the making. You want to call it circular logic because of the plan and simple fact that you don't like the idea that Palpatine planned it out this way. You would rather it was all plan B's, because it kills your buzz about what you thought it was when you first saw the film. Meanwhile, just about everyone else figured it out that it was a Sith trap with multiple layers and had no problems with it, years ago.
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    And all this can be achieved by having the Kamino people call the senate and tell them that the army that Sifo-Dyas orderd ten years ago is ready. At the same time Dooku makes his big threat or actually attacks. Then the senate can give Palpatine his extra powers and the war starts.
    So this micomanaging isn't helping their goals, it is making a lot harder. So the Sith are trying to sabotage their own plans. makes much sense to you?

    Wrong, this has been deabted on this an other sites MANY times since AotC has been released.
    Some argued that Jango was in on the plan and he used the dart, knowing it would be traced.
    Others argued that Zam was told to fail to kill Padme and Palpatine had already foreseen that he could use her to turn Anakin. Others feel much like I do, that these were a series of random occurences that just happened to work in the siths favor. Much like TPM.

    And what you have trouble understanding is that what you say the sith are doing works AGAINST their own plan and could instead ruin it. If Jango is caught, that could be bad. Etc.
    The sith made the army almost ten years ago and they knew that sooner or later the Kamino people would contact the republic. That was the plan. Then once the army is known, Dooku, having made his own army, makes a big threat, the senate gets scared and gives Palpatine his extra powers.
    War starts.

    Umm, unless Palpatine is a total idot he would known that ebing in a big battel would be very risky.
    If Anakin gets killed getting to him, then he still has Dooku.

    And you fail to grasp that this specific want of yours is something you have invented. You ahventä been able to prove any of it.
    Palpatine wants war, that much is clear. My scenario would give him that and with much less risk than your convoluted plan.

    Since Dooku had removed all data about Kamino from the jedi files it follows that the Sith didn't want the jedi going there. Doesn't matter what item from kamino is used, if the Jedi have no way to trace it. And the jedi were only able to trace it trough something random, Obi-Wan knowing Dex who just happen to know about Kamino. Remove Dex and the Jedi get nowhere.

    Again you keep forgetting that we are dealing with a whole planet, with billions of people.
    If the jedi are told about every dead body found on the planet, which would quite many, then the odds that they look into Zam are minute. I and others brought this up to you and you changed your tune by saying that Jango should dump Zam in some VERY public place.
    So make up your mind, if Zam is dumped in some alley, the Jedi would most likely never hear about it. Or it is dumped in such a place that the Jedi must hear about it. See why youre theory makes no sense? It is filled with convulted things like this.

    About RotJ, Palpatine lied, he didn't foresee that Luke would come to Endor so that wasn't by his design. He also didn't know that the rebels had met the ewoks and what role the ewoks would play.
    And his plan there makes far better sense that your convulted theory in AotC.
    The DS2 is being built and this time it is bigger and has no weak spot. makes sense. If it is ready, he wins. But hunting down the rebel fleet will time. So he lets the rebels know where it is and gives them pass codes. But he stacks the field in his favor. He puts whole legion of his best troops to guard the bunker. He places the fleet behind Endor and on top of that the DS is operational.
    If the rebels don't show, he wins, if they do show he can destroy them. So he has all options cowered and has worked to REDUCE the risk. Compaed with your AotC plan it would be like if Palpatine had two ISDs at Endor and twenty guys at the bunker.

    Since he had Dooku remove the very thing that would allow the jedi to trace the dart your plan isn't consistent. Also in RotJ he wants to lure the rebels to Endor so he can destroy them in one hit.
    Palpatine has no need to lure the Jedi anywhere, the army can become known in other, far less risky ways, and the war starts.

    And you know this how? PPOR.

    You keep missing the point, because something happens doesn't mean that is was planned to happen. That is the flaw in your theory in a nutshell. If something happens then it MUST have been planned, nothing can just happen.
    If you bring up RotJ then I bring up TPM, Palpatine didn't plan for Padme to escape, or get to Coruscant or for Maul to die. So we already have an established that things don't always go as the siths plans. So the same could be true here.

    Jango hates the Jedi? Where is that said in the film or are you making more stuff up?
    And you keep using circluar logic, Jango was set up but doesn't realize it so that shows he is stupid.
    And you won't even consider the alternative, Jango wasn't set up because he would have been too smart to fall for that.

    Oh so now Jango is in on the plan? You said earlier that Jango didn't know that the plan was to lure the Jedi to kamino but now he does know? Make up your mind.

    It is not impossible to get a royal straight flush in poker but making a plan that hinges on you getting a royal straight flush not once but five times in a row is exremely unlikely to work.


    I call it circluar logic because that is what it is. This doesn't kill my "buzz" in any way, what ever that means. I just look at the film and see that for the sith to plan all the things we see either means they are totally stupid or are all knowing and all seeing. You seem to want to make the sith into these uber people, that foresees everything and plans for every last alternative. I don't see it that way and I look at TPM and RotJ and sees that the Sith plans don't always work.
    So they instead had a much simpler plan, that had much chance to actually work.

    Finish this later.
    Bye for now
    Old Stoneface
    ILNP likes this.
  3. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Palpatine doesn't meticulously plan out every detail. That's just asinine. What he does do, however, is have an end goal with a general idea of how he wants to accomplish that. The minute details will play out how they will, but he doesn't have any direct control or influence over how that occurs.
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    So ten years ago Palpatine/Dooku created the clone army and covered their tracks so that it won't be found.
    Ten years later Dooku has created the seps and built up a big army and plans to attack the republic with said army.
    The clone army meanwhile is getting ready and the Kamino people will then contact the senate and ask where they want their army.
    So the army becomes known and at the same time Dooku makes a threat/attack. The senate gives exra powers to Palpatine to deal with this threat and the war starts. That was the overall plan of the Sith.
    Padme becames an obstacle as she opposed the army bill and Nute wanted her dead before joining the seps. So Palpatine/Dooku both had reason to want her dead and so they put Jango on the job. But here things went not quite as planned, Zam failed and had to be killed, Obi-Wan manged to trace the dart due to his personal connection with Dex, something the Sith could not have known.
    So the clone army is found ahead of time and Jango flees to Geonosis and Obi-Wan tracks him there and hears what Dooku is planing.

    Palpatine is able to use the situation to accelerate his plan and the war starts. So the Sith's overall plan is working.

    To darth-sinister, I know that Dooku will attack the republic because he says so in the movie. He is building up a big army and he directly states what he will use it for. Once he got it all ready, he can't sit around and not use it because then the other seps will wonder "Hey, why aren't you using this army?" Also, if Dooku attacks or threatens to attack, the senate faces a crisis and quick action would be called for. If the clone army is known but not yet approved, Palpatine can get his extra powers the same way as in the movie and war starts.

    This way Palpatine gets everything that he got in the film, the only difference is that this plan doesn't rely on random events occuring or things that the sith have no control over and has far less risk. That is why your plan doesn't work, it offers no advantages over this one, is full of micromanaging and has tons of drawbacks. And the sith, who are shown to be somewhat clever, won't use a stupidly risky plan when they have a much safer and practical alternative.
    You are still fixated on the idea, if something happens then the sith MUST have planned for it to happen.

    So what exactly is wrong with thinking that the Sith had an overall plan for the war to start but some events did not go quite as planned but Palpatine was able to think on his feet and turn this to his advantage?
    How does that kill "buzz"? To me it shows that Palpatine had a good and sensible plan, as opposed to a stupidly convoluted one, and he is also smart enough to adapt his plans to outside events. Which is pretty much what happened in TPM. So what is the problem?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    ILNP likes this.
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    They're not sabotaging their plans. They've concocted this plan to go off the way they wanted it to. Palpatine has spent years preparing for this. And even with the risks, he was confident in its success. You're focusing too much on the what-ifs. I don't see you doing this for the other films. There were just as many risks that Qui-gon, Luke and Vader took in their plans. But I don't see you ripping on them.

    News to me. Here, we all concluded accurately that this was Palpatine's intended plan.

    Except you have no proof that was the plan. You say what I've been saying is speculation, but you're no different. The minute that "The Making Of Attack Of The Clones" comes out, which it will, the whole matter will be settled.

    Right, but he still planned this out and it still went as he planned, for the most part. All except for the fact that Anakin didn't become evil yet and Obi-wan wasn't killed by Dooku. But his plan still happened as he wanted it to. That's my point. He took a very big risk with his kidnapping plan, even with the knowledge that there were factors he couldn't anticipate such as the ship being so damaged, that it was going to crash into Coruscant. Ergo, if he was willing to risk his own ass, then he would risk any possible backfire with the start of the Clone Wars.

    I haven't invented anything. The basics are based off the movie. Anything else is you and the others trying to create what-if scenarios.

    Even removing Dex, Palpatine would make sure that Obi-wan would be able to trace it to Kamino. It was only erased because of the ten year interval.

    I'm not changing my tune. I said that the body would be left for the Jedi to find. Whether it was in an alley or in front of the Senate, it doesn't matter. The Jedi would get wind of it, because of the nature of the cause of death. Because it could be quite conceivable that the assassin would be eliminated, in an effort to try and make the trail grow cold. It's apparent none of you ever read a book about criminal mysteries, or political thrillers.

    Wrong. Palpatine tells Vader when he arrives on the Death Star, that he foresees Luke coming to find him and that he will bring Luke to him. When Vader tells him that Luke arrive, Sidious finds it odd that he couldn't sense his presences which is why he question Vader about his feelings. As to the Ewoks, of course he didn't take them into account. That's my point. The Sith foresee a lot of things, but not every detail. Sidious foresaw many of the things that would happen in AOTC, but certain details that he couldn't account for. But that didn't stop him from executing his plan.

    Palpatine knew that the Alliance would come to Endor. That's why he was confident in his plan, because they would do exactly as their behavior dictates. There was just as much risk involved.

    It isn't inconsistent. Palpatine wasn't planning on Nute acting all petty over what Padme did to him. He took advantage of that by authorizing the assassination attempts and having Dooku make sure that the dart was used, so that it could be used to find Kamino. Palpatine may have had something else in mind to lure the Jedi there, in a similar manner, but he chose to use Nute to his advantage again. That part I have never denied.

    Except he didn't need to lure the Alliance to Endor. He could have finished the Death Star and then start seeking them out. Just as less risky.

    Really, you're going to go this route?

    How do you know it wasn't supposed to happen? What makes you so confident that it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

    Which also doesn't mean that it can go as planned. That's my point. The plan went as it did here and didn't in TPM. There's nothing wrong in that happening.

    It's from his backstory.

    And you don't want to consider either scenario, for whatever reason.

    I never said that. I was referring to the fact that he could have voiced his objections on Geonosis, after telling Dooku about what happened on Kamino. At which point Dooku would either tell him that he knew that would happen and had planned for it and intends to compensate him for his losses.Or he tells him that he underestimated the Jedi, apologizes for what happens and pays him off as compensation.

    So were all the other plans, but they still worked in some form.

    This isn't about me wanting them to be uber. This is about what the goals are. Lucas said that his goal was to gain Emergency Powers and that he pulled the strings of everyone like a puppet master. And that within the film, there are all these clues showing us the path leads to Sidious. That it was his plan for these different elements coming together, since we don't see the Sidious persona until the end of the film. You have to look at these pieces of evidence and then connect the dots.

    -Why was the toxic dart used of all things? It couldn't be a coincidence that Jango would pick the one item that would lead to the war's start.

    -Why would a Jedi create an army, without telling the Council?

    -Why would Lama Su and Taun We say that they were expecting Obi-wan when he showed up?

    -Why is Dooku adamant that ten thousand systems will rally to their cause?

    These are the clues necessary to understand the Sith's goals. Combine that with Palpatine talking about wanting to be a take charge Chancellor who wasn't afraid of doing what was necessary to get things done. And add to that Palpatine is known for creating risky plans, instead of safer bets, you have your answer.

    Ah, here's your problem. It's not really Padme that's the problem. The Loyalist Committee was a group of senators that vehemently opposed the Military Creation Act. All of those senators were a problem, not just Padme. Bail Organa and Ora Free Taa were just as stubborn in their refusal to go along with it as Padme was. She lead the opposition, but Bail was also up there as well. The reason it is Padme who is targeted is because of Nute. Palpatine took advantage of him to kick start the war.

    As I told you earlier, it is important to have the Republic strike first for a reason. Dooku is aware of the Clone Army, but the Confederacy leadership isn't. They're all crapping their pants at the sight of the army and Dooku claims that the Republic's actions were treacherous. He now has proof that the Republic is completely corrupt which he will use to rally the holdouts to his cause. If the Confederacy strikes first, it might cause the ten thousand systems to not join them. But by making the Republic look bad by having an army ready to go, when their very laws state that they aren't supposed to have a standing army, then it shows how far down the government has become. The creation of a Clone Army ten years before a piece of legislation was even considered authorizing the creation and use of an army, makes the Republic look deceptive and hypocritical.
  6. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Samuel Vimes, for more information about why Jango hates the Jedi, please look up what happened to him during the Battle of Galidraan.
  7. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 5, 2013
    I don't recall that battle from any of the movies, but I'd think the Battle of the Geonosis Arena would give Jango good reason to hate the Jedi. :D
  8. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Yes, you're correct. Nothing happened to any of the characters before TPM. In fact, they didn't even exist before TPM. All of them suddenly sprang into existence at the exact same moment that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon arrived at Naboo. Yep, that's what happened.
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    If that info was relevant to the movie AotC and the character of Jango Fett then it should have been in the movie.
    It wasn't however and I don't give credit to things not in the movie because, and try and follow me here, IT WASN'T IN THE MOVIE. Having books and other stuff can be fun but I judge the films as films and if the films aren't able to tell a coherent narrative without the audience needing to read 10-15 books then the films aren't doing their job.

    The tie in comic of JJ's first Star Trek movie gave the villain a good backstory and made some of his actions much more sensible. But since that wasn't shown in the film, the villain came across as rather one-dimnesional and his actions sometimes made very little sense. This is something that several people have commented on re: ST09 and that is a fair complaint. Nero's backstory, as given in the comics, makes the character better and more well-rounded but since that isn't in the film, the character suffers from it.

    This is the movie forum so discussion is about what is in the films and what conclusion can be drawn from them.
    In the film AotC, Jango did not seem to hate the Jedi. He probably didn't like them but I saw no signs of hatred in his character.
    If Jango's hatred of the Jedi made him eager to set the jedi up to be destroyed and that is why he put himself at risk with the dart and all that, then that is something that should have been in the film.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    It might not be relevant to the movie AOTC, but it is relevant to Star Wars, and Star Wars includes all of the movies, books, comics, games and source books. There is nothing wrong with gathering more info from the EU, because the books and the movies all combine to make one overall story. That's how it's been for a very long time, and it's not going to change just because you plug your ears and blatantly ignore the other sources.

    There is a difference between Trek EU and Star Wars EU: as far as I know, the Trek EU is not canon. The Star Wars EU is.
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    I am not ripping the film, that is the second time you accused me of attacking the film.
    What I am doing is arguing against your INTERPRETATION of what happens in the film.
    You say that Jango was ordered to use the dart, that Obi-Wan finding Kamino, fighting Jango but Jango getting away and Obi-Wan following him. Them getting to Geonosis, Obi-Wan overhearing Dooku and reporting back to the senate. ALL OF IT was planned from the get go.

    Jango's use of the dart is highly suspicious yes and that is the strongest point in your favor.
    But when one considers that the Sith removed all data about the dart from the jedi's archives then that makes it much harder for the jedi to correctly trace it. Add to that the chance that Jango is killed or captured, which could ruin the sith's plan. Or Obi-Wan getting killed, or jango getting away without trace. Then the odds of this plan actually working become very low. So I argue against your theory because it is far too convoluted and it isn't really supported by the film.

    Same thing if someone were to argue that Palpatine PLANNED for Padme to get away from Naboo in TPM. That Maul was told to fail to capture her and Palpatine's plan FROM THE START was that Padme get to Coruscant and remove Valorum. Then Palpatine ordered Maul to Naboo, knowing he would die and knwoing that he would kill Qui-GOn and that deathw ould mean that he could get Dooku to turn.
    I would argue against that too because that reasoning isn't supported by the actual film.

    Yes you have. That Jango was ORDERED to use the dart isn't found anywhere in the film, not any other source that I am aware of. So you take his use of it as evidence that he was ORDERED to do so. This is why you are using circluar logic. Jango used the dart because he was ordered to and the proof of this order is the fact that Jango used the dart.

    Actually I would suggest you read some of those books. When criminals want to kill someone they usually don't want the cops to trace it back to them. So they tend to avoid very specific or easilly traceable weapons. The body they often dump in a place where it won't be found for a long while or chop it up or burn it. Jango, having some experience with criminals, would see that him being ordered to use a very specific weapon, for no reason, and told to dump the body so that it will be found, it a set up.
    Also, how many people live on Coruscant? Say 20 billion. How many dead bodies turn up every day? Several thousands at least. Some of old age, some of illness, some accidents and some due to foul play. How many of those? Say 100? A very low number for a whole planet but anyway.
    Should Obi-Wan go and look at every last one of those bodies? That woudl take time.
    And why would he pick Zam as the one? He doesn't know that the assassin is dead.
    You said the Force before. But as the film shows us, the Jedi's ability to use the Fore is diminished.
    And the Sith knows it. So the sith can't count on the Force to lead the Jedi to Zam's body.

    No, because if the rebels didn't show, the DS2 would be completed and he would win anyway, it would just take longer.

    Yes since you have more than once made up stuff to support your argument.
    And you are the one making the claim here, it is up to you to back up your position.

    No I have considered both options and find that one is far less convoluted and needlessly risky and not so full of things the Sith can't control or know about. Since either version do not have clear evidence, like a scene where Dooku orders Jango to use the dart would prove your case totally.
    Then I go with what scenario makes most sense. And your version of things makes less sense, simple as that.

    And Palpatine getting the emergency powers through Dooku making a big htreat and using the clone army because one from Kamino called him, achieves the same goal. Palpatine is still pulling people's strings.

    For the same reason that if you order a pizza then the people at the pizza place expect you to shown up and get our pizza.

    Because they, like the other seps, are eager to attack a weak republic and get what they want.


    And as I have told you earlier, those ten thousand were apparently willing to join when the plan was to attack a weak and defenseless republic. The seps with Dooku got scared, you are right about that.
    So they, who were expecting an easy win, wouldn't they reconsider their actions and decide that the republic isn't as weakas they thought and perhaps they should not fight.

    The seps have been involved in murder an attempted murder and they were planning to attack a weak republic. They can not really take the high ground here.

    Bye for now
    Blackboard Monitor
    ILNP likes this.
  12. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    That's how debates work. The one who makes the claim is the one who has to support it with evidence. The one who is disputing your claim does not need to provide any evidence unless you do so yourself.

    It's like if I told you I had the ability to fly. You would ask me to prove it, and if I couldn't, you would conclude that I did not in fact have that ability. You don't have to prove I don't have that ability; I have to prove that I do.
  13. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Follow up,

    If we are to look at writers intent with AotC and see if Lucas always did intend for Jango's use of the dart to have been an order, if it was ever that.

    The shooting script had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and the Jedi knew it. That script also had Jango say that he was hired by a Darth Tyrannus and the Jedi knew that this was a sith. The dart was still used and Obi-Wan tracked Jango to Geonosis etc.

    So IF the use of the dart was a sith plan then that plan had nothing to do with a Jedi ordering the clone army, because a jedi didn't place the order and Obi-Wan and the others were well aware of it. So Sifo-Dyas ordering the army, if he did so, does not seem conected with the use of the dart. And why would it? If the Jedi finds the army or if it is found some other way. A Jedi, Sifo-Dyas is the one who ordered it and that does not change depending on who finds the army.

    Lastly, in the shooting script the Jedi find the army and learn that it was ordered under a false name and that a sith hired Jango to be the template. That would be more than enough to view the army with some suspiscion. Some of this they found out because they were able to talk to Jango, which they wouldn't have if the army had been found some other way.
    To me, it makes very little sense that the sith would want the jedi to find this out and esp while they have some time to investigate matters before the war starts. It would make much better sense that the jedi find out about the army and the same day Dooku makes a big threat and the senate gives extra powers to Palpatine. That way they have no time to look into the army. They didn't have all that much time in the movie either but it was more.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  14. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Here is a simple explanation why Jango used the dart: it draws less attention to him. A blaster bolt leaves a big bright red streak, pinpointing Jango's location to anyone in the area. The dart makes the killing of Zam that much easier to escape from. Sure, Anakin and Obi-Wan did glance up to see Jango fly away, but I doubt anyone else in the area saw him fire the dart.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  15. Tim Battershell

    Tim Battershell Jedi Master star 5

    Sep 3, 2012
    The Essential Atlas has Tatooine, Kamino and Geonosis all in reasonably close proximity to each other. Far shorter distances than Tatooine to Alderaan or Alderaan to Yavin, for example.
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Or, the dart is more accurate over long distances compared with his normal blasters. He did have rockets, but if he only has the one that fires from his back, to fire that he needs to bend his head down so it might also not be that accurate over long distances.
    So he used a weapon he had on him, not because he has ordered to but a situation came up where it was pratical.

    Question then is, did Jango know that Dooku had deleted the kamino file? Maybe. If he didn't know, did he consider the possibility that the dart could be traced? If yes then he might have left Kamino sooner than he did.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    The difference between this plan and the other plans, is that it involves multiple angles being juggled because it is about starting a war. The other plots were smaller in nature, which is why this plot seems convoluted to you.

    It is not an either or situation. One plan can change (TPM) and yield the desired result and another plan (AOTC) can go off without a hitch. How hard is that to understand?

    Because it cannot be a coincidence that he used the one thing that started the war, unless he was encouraged to do so. The whole premise behind the Jedi and the Sith's points of view is that events are not random. It is either the will of the Force when something happens, or it was planned in advance to go that way by someone aware of potential futures and manipulating events to go their way. Darth Sidious would not leave something to chance like that, unless he wanted it to be utilized.

    Yes, but in other instances, there are times when someone who is questioning their allegiance, will leave a clue that will bring the opposition to them.

    Except Jango trusts Dooku and would believe that the Jedi proved to be smarter than they gave them credit for. Leaving the body would keep him from being suspected and with a dart that was untraceable, he would have a reason to go with it.

    The examination would be between the time the assassination took place to when the body would be discovered. This narrows it down. As to why, Obi-wan and the Council would want to pursue any lead that could lead them on the correct path. That means searching for ships that came in recently, that appear to be abandoned, or that left within short order of the assassination. Yes, it would take time. All investigations take time. That's why the dart was utilized. It cut down the investigation time by a large fraction, as it was something to go on.

    What is diminished is the ability to see the future. Not their ability to sense deception, or current pulling them in a direction.

    They would show, because such a tactical advantage would be too good to pass up. That's why he used it. Such a scenario would prove to be beneficial than waiting for it to be finished and then not being able to destroy it a second time.

    Such a scene doesn't exist, because Lucas crafted a film that was about playing catch-up. A mystery that we have to try and solve as the film reaches the climax. The film starts with one mystery and goes from there. Lucas wanted us to wonder if Dooku was really evil, or just an idealist. Hence having him dress unlike Sidious and Maul, and saving his introduction until Geonosis. Likewise, the Sidious persona is absent until the end.

    Except they ask you how you want to get your order, you say that I'll send someone to come get it.

    Yes, but by showing how bad the Republic is, that will entice them to join. These worlds are on the fence and need the proper motivation which comes from launching a first strike on the Confederacy, rather than on the Republic.

    But had yet to commit. They needed the right nudge in that direction.

    They fought because they had the superior numbers and a much faster turnover ratio for droids, over the Clone Army which take much longer to replace. They also had the ace up their sleeve in the Death Star and were motivated by greed.

    Ah, but you forget, the Jedi had initially thought it was the spice miners who were targeting the senator from Naboo. And with Jango and Zam both dead, there is no evidence other than the Jedi's word, that it was the Separatist movement that was behind the assassination strikes, which could be a smear campaign. And with the Republic attacking first, there is proof that the Republic is in the wrong for what started the war. No one outside of those in the conference room on Geonosis and Obi-wan know what was said, prior to the battle. Dooku can spin it as they were preparing for an eventual war, because of the Jedi and the Military Creation Act. The systems that will rally don't need to know the goals of the Confederacy leadership. It can be something as simple as supporting two separate governments.

    That's why it is timed out the way it is, so that Obi-wan would send his message and it would get to Palpatine's office and put the Senate on alert, but get them to strike first rather than wait for the inevitable. The Jedi don't send an investigation team, because they're waiting on Obi-wan to bring back Jango, so that he could be questioned further. Yoda only goes once the Senate has given Palpatine the authority to act. The same way Mace doesn't take the 212 Jedi in the Temple to Geonosis right away.

    Now do you see where I'm coming from. Maybe it wasn't a specific order, but a re-enforcement that any weapon from Kamino that would be effective, wouldn't be traced back there and that Jango would have his assurance because Dooku himself erased Kamino.
  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012

    I've got a lot to do and little time.
    But one thing that I did not think about concerning this.

    At the start of AotC, Mace says that their inteligence points to disgruntled miners on Naboo as the one behind the bomb.

    1) IF the first bomb had killed Padme, then if the Jedi had been involved in an investigation then that is the lead they would have pursued. So if Obi-Wan or whatever Jedi assigned to the case, went anywhere, it would be to Naboo.

    2) If this is a false trail, and it very much looks like that. If Palpatine is behind EVERYTHING then he is behind this as well.
    So doesn't that prove that Palpatine WASN'T trying to lead the Jedi to Kamino? He made a false trail that pointed elsewhere and the jedi bought it, initially.

    Finish this later.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    That's why it is important for Zam to die, which would leave a trail to Kamino.

    That's because Jango and Zam don't realize they're being played. As I noted earlier, they make these threats to Padme believing that they are to frame the miners. These threats are what prompted Panaka and Typho to insist that Padme use extra caution when going to Coruscant and to rely on the decoys, in case something happened. Which it did and then Palpatine maneuvers the Jedi into place and everything goes from there. It gets the Jedi involved which is what he wants. Palpatine doesn't care about Padme being dead or alive, because if he really did, she wouldn't have made it another three years.
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 20, 2005
    Returning to the original question...

    I wouldn't say the arrest of Palpatine, as carried out by the Jedi, is legal, or even well-handled.

    For one thing, you can't just march into a person's office with no proof of anything and expect a good outcome.

    Two, if you're still adamant on marching in for some reason, have your little "We're here to arrest you moment" if you will, but do not -- repeat: do not -- unholster a weapon, let alone all four of you, in a tiny office space, especially when it's something as awkward, in a confined space, as a lightsaber, from which two further problems are immediately generated:

    i) Drawing a weapon, any weapon, let alone a bright glowy stick, with the power to instantly burn and near-instantly amputate someone, is needlessly antagonistic, and will probably lead to the person this display of macho power is meant to impress escalating an already-strained situation.

    ii) If said person chooses to escalate -- a choice they will probably make unconsciously, as it happens -- you're now in the poo because there's four of you in a very cramped space ... and one of the other guy. Someone is going to come off the worse for wear from this arrangement; and it might not be the person you're attempting to cow into submitting to your (flimsy) authority.

    iii) Where the hell are any recording devices or overseers to ensure that such an arrest, as tenuous a concept as it is to begin with, especially when being enacted on such thin testimony, goes smoothly and equitably, without undue incident; or without the whole arrest being called into question in the first place?

    Yoda warned Mace that "to a dark place this line of thought will carry us", but apparently, he didn't really listen. Tellingly, Yoda is not present at the moment Mace chooses to enter the office with three armed companions, and the price the galaxy has to pay for Mace's arrogance and blindness -- the arrogance and blindness of the whole Jedi Order, in effect -- is very high, indeed.
  21. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    Must be a homer, Simpson... because the pitcher just went :oops:.

    So yeah, I totally agree.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  22. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 5, 2013
    Whatever you say, Mr. Burden of Proof. Jaster Mareel was already in training to take his role as Boba Fett.

    So how do you feel about the fact that Chewbacca is dead and won't be appearing in the sequels?
  23. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    Will you knock it off with the Chewie thing? As far as I know, nothing is known about the sequel movies. When those movies come out, then and only then will the question of Chewie's death be relevant. Just drop it.
  24. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Jul 5, 2013
    Of course you want me to "knock off the Chewie thing" - because it completely destroys the arguments of people who think the EU is gospel.

    BTW, I think we'll all have a pretty good idea of whether or not Chewie is in the ST long before the movies actually come out. Such a thing wouldn't even be considered a spoiler.
  25. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Jun 2, 2007
    LFL thinks the EU is gospel. I am merely repeating what their policies are. The Star Wars canon levels have been firmly established for a long time, so how can you even think to dispute them?

    It's all right there, in plain text, no room for misinterpretation. All EU is canon except where directly contradicted by a higher source.