PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Sep 22, 2013.

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  1. The Star Wars Archivist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Palpatine's arrest is, in fact, not legal. What Mace did was treason against the chancellor. Sith or not sith. Of course, when you find the Sith that has been orchestrating a war for years and years, you kind of want to go to his office at the moment you find him out. As for a deeper plan of attack, I believe at this one point of all Mace Windu's time as a Jedi Grand Master his mind was clouded. He had one objective and one only, to kill the Sith lord. As for reinforcements, whose he going to bring? Clone troopers? If he brought more jedi you can bet he would have slaughtered them like the rest. not even Saesee Tiin, the temple's "Most celebrated swordsman" stood 5 seconds against Palpatine.
  2. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    So then that brings us back to my question which you have never answered: Are you disappointed that Chewie won't be Episode 7? After all, he's dead, right? And the GFFA is still recovering from the Vong invasion in 30 ABY, right?
    They want to sell books and comics and video games to fanboys so what do you expect them to say? "Uh, no... it's not canon..." Lucas himself has admitted that he really doesn't follow or care about the EU much at all. If Lucas doesn't care, it's pretty tough for me to care.

    The simple, undeniable fact of the matter is that when Lucas made the prequel trilogy, he completely threw away the EU. And JJ Abrams has already told us that he is going to do the same regarding E7. When Lucas wrote the prequels, he wasn't thinking "Jango hates the Jedi because of the Battle of Yottenfleim and how the evil Sax-Fin Doobledore killed Jedi Master Scooby-Rooby Megamix..." (etc) Taking retroactive explanations and retcons and assigning those to the thought process behind the movies is intellectually bankrupt.
    Last edited by Beezer, Oct 25, 2013
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  3. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Why would I be disappointed that Chewie won't be in Episode 7? Given the ages of Ford, Hamill and Fisher, Episode 7 will likely take place post-NJO, so yes, Chewie should be dead.

    Gene Roddenberry didn't have a problem declaring the Star Trek EU non-canon. So it clearly isn't about sales figures. And besides, the Star Wars EU did not become canon until the late 90s-early 2000s, well after the EU had gained its foothold. Furthermore, read the foreword in the new edition of Splinter of the Mind's Eye; George Lucas clearly does care about and appreciate the EU.


    Which EU was thrown away? Do you have any evidence of this? All of the EU that existed pre-1999 is still exactly as valid as it is today. We've been over this before. Why are you still claiming that the EU has been thrown away?

    Show me a quote.

    Why does it matter what Lucas did or didn't have in his mind when he wrote the prequels? The backstory was added later. But that doesn't make the backstory any less valid. Nothing in the movie contradicts Jango's backstory, so it is canon.

    Prove it.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Spot on.
  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There was hardly anything on the Clone Wars era in the EU, to "throw away" in the first place.

    What little there was, has generally been reconciled with the prequels.

    Indeed, new books, even very movie-centric ones like "Millennium Falcon Owners Workshop Manual" and "Death Star Owners Workshop Manual" (not out yet but preview content can be seen) also make use of EU stuff.
  6. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    If you've ever read the Zahn Trilogy, which you obviously haven't (but you really should, preferably using the Heir to the Empire silver anniversary edition complete with author's notes) you would know how mistaken you are. Zahn himself admits multiple times (paraphrasing) "yup, they threw that away with the prequels... threw this away.... that part too...."

    My friend, to say nothing in the prequels contradicts anything in the EU shows you really just don't have a firm grasp of what the EU looked like in the mid to late 90's. Even though those books take place after ROTJ, there is a lot of backstory in there regarding the Clone Wars, including cloned Dark Jedi. Sorry, but Yoda didn't go to Dagobah in hot pursuit of Joruus C'Baoth.
    "I think the key to moving forward on something like this is honoring but not revering what came before." - JJ Abrams
    “I’m trying to start fresh. There are certain pleasures that we think the saga can bring to people that they’ve been missing, and we’re hoping to bring them that, and at the same time, have them feel that it’s all new.” - Lawrence Kasden.
    Actually, yeah, it really does.

    If you really think the EU is canon, then your head is gonna 'splode in 2015. Please warn those sitting around you prior to the screening they'll need raincoats. :D
    Yeah, there was retconning. But the very fact that retconning had to take place proves that the stories are incompatible as originally written.

    That's right guys.... all of the EU is canon - except for the parts which aren't.
    Last edited by Beezer, Oct 25, 2013
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  7. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    I have read every single EU novel out there, with the exception of a couple of the newest ones. I am well versed in the EU's history. And that is why I know that every single story is still canon. Some changes had to be made in older novels, particularly the dates in the aforementioned Thrawn trilogy. But those are minor changes.

    And I repeat: I am not the one declaring the EU to be canon. LFL is. They decide what is canon and what isn't. Take it up with them if you disagree.

    Yoda never went to Dagobah in pursuit of C'baoth; it was an unnamed Dark Jedi he pursued there. And since nothing in the prequels contradicts this, that means it happened.

    Also, Lucas himself has used retcons in the movies. "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Retcons are inevitable in a franchise this size.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Oct 25, 2013
  8. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I must say, it is hilarious that this whole subject became such a debate. So, really, the Jedi were the bad guys? LOL

    Of course the arrest wasn't legal, neither were Hitler's MANY assassination attempts. But to try to turn that around is hilarious.
    Last edited by Lee_, Oct 25, 2013
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  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Side_Cave

    Heir to the Empire describes how Jedi Master Yoda battled and defeated another powerful Bpfasshi Dark Jedi inside the Cave. But, in Star Wars Insider 98 Leland Chee writes that this is no longer considered part of continuity because Yoda had never been on Dagobah before his exile.

    (Dark Side Cave talk page)
    "We now treat the Bpfasshi dark Jedi incident as taking place near Dagobah, not on Dagobah. Mortally wounded, the dark Jedi retreated to Dagobah where he died... or something like that."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 25, 2013
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Well, couldn't the confrontation with that Dark Jedi have occurred after Yoda's exile? Vision of the Future describes that Dark Jedi taking over Car'das' ship and flying to Dagobah, where they found Yoda waiting for them. There's no reason why this couldn't have occurred shortly after Yoda began living on Dagobah.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Oct 26, 2013
  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I'd say it could- but The Essential Atlas references the Bpfasshi Dark Jedi Insurrection as something Dooku had promoted - that took place during the Clone Wars. Though the guy could have disappeared while his allies were being hunted, then reappeared a few months later.

    Maybe Chee will eventually clarify this one?
  12. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Well again, there wasn't a whole lot of time between the end of the Clone Wars and Yoda going into exile, so those Bpfasshi Dark Jedi could have continued on their rampage for a few weeks/months after Dooku's death. Seems like a pretty easy fix to me, but I'll leave it in Chee's hands.
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Hopefully Timothy Zahn will write an "interquel" between Outbound Flight and Choices of One, that covers Car'das's activities - his capture by the Dark Jedi, his career as a crime lord- and his return to Dagobah when illness began to affect him.
  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Unfortunately mostly already told in HOT duology.
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    You miss the point again. If Padme is killed, IF the jedi are involved then they will think that Naboo miners were behind this and they would go to Naboo to investigate further. Zam's dead body will almost certainly not be brought to the jedi's attention. Why? Because a) We are dealing with a whole PLANET with billions of people. Even assuming her dead body is found, it would just be one body out who knows how many. b) Local cops will take it in, do an investigation and file a report somewhere. They have no reason to contact the jedi about this because there is NOTHING that connects Zam's dead body to the killing of Padme.
    c) If they for some reason DO tell the jedi, "Hey we found this dead body." Why would the jedi care? They already have their suspects, the Naboo miners, so Zam, would be of no interest to them.
    Not to mention that it defies common sense that the cops call the jedi every time they find a dead body.

    [/QUOTE]

    You contradict yourself, earlier you said;
    So first you say that Jango never made any threats and the Naboo miners did. Now you say Jango did make these threats. Make up your mind.
    Second, do you have an actual source that says that Zam and/or Jango made any threats to Padme? Why would they do that? They want Padme dead so making threats will only make their job harder.
    Thirdly, why would Palpatine want Padme to be on her guard? You said he doesn't care either way, but if he puts her on her guard then her death becomes less likely. Which would indicate that he DOES care. He prefers her alive to dead.

    Further, you seem to agree that the miners were framed or bribed and this was to confuse people.
    So doesn't that TOTALLY work against Palpatine wanting the Jedi to find Kamino? If the Jedi believe that Naboo miners are behind this and go there to investigate, then his supposed plan to lead the Jedi to Kamino is ruined.
    Again you have the Sith engage in self-sabotage, Palpatine wants to lead the Jedi to Kamino but instead creates a false trail that works counter to that aim.
    Sorry, this makes no sense.
    Instead the far more likely alternative is that if Palpatine was behind the "Naboo miners" thing then it was meant to throw the jedi off and send them on a wild goose chase. Padme is dead and the Jedi, if they are involved, go off chasing false trails and Palpatine's plan goes on without interruption.
    If he really wanted the Jedi to find Kamino then he would not have bothered with the miners thing.
    If the jedi lack any leads then they would be more likely to investigate all possible events.


    Some other quick comments. About Jango's use of the dart.
    Yes it can and I mentioned this earlier. Jango saw that Zam had been captured by the jedi and was about to talk. So he needed to kill her but his regular blaster lacked the range/accuracy for that shot so he used the dart. Probably not thinking whether it could be traced, silencing Zam was more important. The situation where he used it was a random occurrence and so was his use of it.
    And as I've said many times, the war can be started in many other ways, most of which are far less convoluted.


    What examination? Before the body is brought to the Jedi's attention, if it ever is, the Jedi will be pursuing the lead they already have, the Naboo miners. Remember, the Jedi already HAVE a suspect. They would investigate the destroyed ship, which presumably happened in the movie.
    That left no traces to Kamino, if anything it left traces to Naboo. Since the explosion came from inside the ship, then they would most likely conclude that the bomb was put on the ship on Naboo and they would go there and dig further.
    Second, again you don't seem to realize that we are dealing with a whole planet here?
    Did you see the film? How many ships come and leave Coruscant every day? Hundreds if not thousands. And why do you assume that Zam has her own ship? Maybe her base of operations is Coruscant? Maybe she came in a regular transport or her ship came in unnoticed and is hidden?

    Sorry to say but if Lucas wanted us to question if Dooku is evil or not then he did a poor job of that. The opening crawl makes him sound ominous, then Padme accuse him of trying to kill her, which makes him seem even more shady. Then when we finally see him, the first thing we hear is that he was behind the attempts on Padme. So, no surprise at all really, he is evil. Also casting Christopher Lee in the part and have him be called "Count Dooku" are not very subtle hints that he is the bad guy. And the trailers show him using a red lightsaber, a Sith weapon.
    There is no real mystery either because it is clear from very early on that Palpatine/Dooku are behind the attempts on Padme. It is also clear that they are the ones behind the clone army and they are looking to start a war. Probably the biggest mystery is why the Jedi don't seem to realize that they are being played or why they don't ask more questions, like Jango works for Dooku, is there a connection to the clone army?

    Had Dooku been in TPM and shown as a passionate Jedi, that was fed up with the corrupt senate and shown as a good friend to Qui-Gon then his character would have been more interesting and there would have been more of a mystery in AotC.

    No it would do the opposite. Since their motivation is "attack a defenseless republic and loot it." then the republic being anything BUT defenseless would make them more reluctant, not less.

    What is hard to understand is WHY the Sith would make an overly convoluted plan, full of needless risks and absurd micromanaging over a simple, more direct and far less risky plan.

    It would be like some guy plans to rob a money transport. But his plan relies on one driver being hung over, the other have just broke up with his girlfriend and is in a lousy mood and the third ate some bad beef the day before and is feeling sick. Then he stand somewhere, hoping the truck will pass him by and just as it does so, the sick guy vomits on the angry guy and they fight, while the hung over guy falls asleep. Then he can rob the truck. Does this plan make much sense to you?

    The sith control both sides, they know the army is getting ready and so are the seps. The Kamino people will eventually call the senate and the army become know. Right around that time, Dooku reveals his army and makes threats. The senate panics and gives Palpatine extra powers and the war starts. Very simple and has far fewer random variables.

    The sith had a fairly direct and simple plan in TPM, blockade and eventually invade Naboo, this would make the chancellor look weak if he can't stop it. Thus he could be removed and Palpatine takes his place.
    The same here, but like in TPM, some events do not go quite as planned but the overall plan works.

    Your plan lacks any kind of proof, all you have is "X happened so the sith must have planned for X to happen." Again, this is circular logic.
    So given the lack of proof and the convoluted nature of your plan, I go with a simpler alternative.

    But this has go on long enough and horribly off-topic, we won't get anywhere further with this, so best we agree to disagree.

    Bye
    The Guarding Dark
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  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First off, enough with the EU arguments. Let it go. This isn't the place for it. The post ROTJ EU is out the window. The PT and OT era is fine until it is contradicted by any spinoff film set in that era, or the ones that tie directly into the post ROTJ era.


    Mace's plan wasn't to kill him. It was to arrest Palpatine for treason and take him to the Senate to stand trial. It was Palpatine's use of Sith lightning that causes Mace to change his mind and attempt to kill him. This was done so that Anakin would be forced to make a choice.

    The miners would hire Zam to do the job for them. The same way that the Trade Federation paid for Jango and Zam to do the job. The Jedi would follow the path of the miners, find it is a dead end and then start looking elsewhere. As to Zam's body, the Jedi would think that they hired an assassin to do the job for them and thus search for one. The discovery of Zam's body with a toxic dart would catch the attention of local security and given the assassination, would consult with the Jedi Order to see if it could be related or not.

    Jango would tell Zam to make the threats and make it look like the miners did it.

    No, I do not have a source. But the point is that they don't want their bosses to be caught and would frame someone else, to deflect from them, not realizing that they're being used to find the clones and their employers.

    He doesn't have say in what she does. Padme was planning to come regardless. All he does is use this to get the Jedi involved. If she dies or if she lives, is incidental. All that matters is that she is not in the Senate in the coming days.

    It's not about the optimal situation to use it, it is about picking that one particular weapon and leaving Kamino with it as part of his arsenal. It cannot be a coincidence for him to pick the one thing that would bring the Jedi to his doorstep. The only way it would is if he was either told to do so, or encouraged to do it.

    Wrong. Zam says that she hit the ship, meaning it was an external blast. Something that we don't see, but she was able to get from where she was at.

    Padme questions Dooku because she's not familiar with him, which is why Mace says that he was a Jedi and wouldn't do such a thing. And that Ki-Adi calls him a political idealist. We're made to think that he was a retired Jedi who was opposing the Sith and the Republic. Lee also has played good guys in his career.

    Not quite. Dooku was never show using his Lightsaber until the television spots after the film was released. Mainly the Yoda spots. All four theatrical trailers never showed Dooku using his saber, nor the Force. He is only shown talking to Obi-wan. When the official pictures of Dooku with his Lightsaber were shown, when the blade was extended, it was colored purple. Only his toy and the electronic saber were red.

    It wasn't that clear that the Sith were behind it. It was a possibility, but it wasn't a lock. That's why they don't show up until later. Dooku's tenure as a Sith Lord is even hidden which is why he's never referred to as Lord Darth Tyranus until the end of the film.

    They joined because of the Republic's corruption. Not because it was weak. Dooku just used that to entice the Confederacy leadership into signing on. The systems joined because the Republic had a military force when they weren't supposed to and that was yet another sign of how far down the government had fallen.

    I told you why. Again and again. This is about making the Republic look bad in the eyes of the Separatist movement and about making the Republic look good, Palpatine in particular, in the eyes of the loyalists. These things are crucial in establishing the war and the new order that follows. Once the war has ended, Palpatine declares that they are stronger than ever and the new security measures with the Imperial military are far more effective than ten thousand Jedi Knights. By striking first, it makes Palpatine a strong leader instead of a reactionary one like Valorum was. It makes those loyal to the Separatist cause believe that the leadership is right and thus lend their support to the cause.
  17. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    They've said exactly what I say about it and exactly what is in my signature. It's all canon - except for the parts which aren't. What about the movie novelizations and cut scenes? I keep forgetting, are those canon too?
    Oh really..? So between the time Yoda says "into exile, I must go" and the moment he arrives at Dagobah, there is some mysterious, unnamed Dark Jedi that he tracks down there and defeats..?

    Do ya have any idea just how silly you look making that claim? Even the "official canon" admits it had to be changed and retconned a bit.
    Last edited by Beezer, Oct 26, 2013
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  18. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    There's nothing wrong with retconning. Changing the canon happens all the time, even in the movies. Please stop with your anti-EU spiel. It's tiresome, pointless and is bordering on trolling.
  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Having an opinion is not trolling. Telling people which opinions are OK to hold and discuss however is another matter.


    Personally, I think he's pretty much hitting the nail on the head when it comes to the EU.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  20. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Apparently you haven't been reading his posts. He is constantly combative and aggressive. That is trolling by any definition. I get it, you don't like the EU, but the official policies of LFL don't care about one user's opinions. And when he constantly claims that all of the post ROTJ EU is being thrown out is am absolutely incorrect statement, because there is no evidence that this will occur. NOTHING is known about Episode 7 yet; they're rewriting the script as we speak. Unless you are Abrams or Kasdan, you have no basis for your claims.

    So like I said, please drop your anti-EU crusade. Until it is officially stated otherwise, the canon hierarchy remains intact.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Ah, you mean like this

    That seems pretty combative to me, why should he not respond in kind.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
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  22. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    You can feel free to ignore any post I make if you have the self discipline to do so.

    But sure.. the EU, novelizations and cut scenes are absolute canon, and if you don't believe me just ask:

    Chewbacca, who is dead...
    or Owen Lars, who is Ben Kenobi's brother...
    or Jaster Mareel, who is really Boba Fett.
    Last edited by Beezer, Oct 26, 2013
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  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    And I could care less about "canon hierarchy". I don't work for Lucas and their marketing wing.
  24. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Chewie is dead, yes.
    Obi-Wan does have a younger brother named Owen, unrelated to Owen Lars.
    Jaster Mereel was never Boba Fett's real name. It was an alias he used for a brief time.

    All EU is canon except where it is contradicted by a higher-level source. That is the official policy, so we can't dispute that.

    Why are you being purposefully ignorant?
    Last edited by timmoishere, Oct 26, 2013
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas and the powers that be have made it clear that they are not going to follow the post Jedi EU story. Chewie will most certainly not be dead.

    Lucas doesn't bind himself to the EU. He takes from it what he likes and casts aside what he doesn't when he writes a new Star Wars story.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
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