PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Order 65 specifically referred to the Chancellor being removed from duty if he was "unfit to issue orders," though - that's different than arresting him for committing a crime. Taking his position as a Sith as evidence he'd committed treason by working with Dooku the whole time, he becomes a Force-using criminal, which is something the Jedi definitely have legal authority to act upon.

 

So... the jedi automatically have authority over any and all force-sensitives? It's believable the senate/republic constitution would give them that kind of authority. Though, I figure there would be some kind of other organization that overrides the jedi when it comes to the chancellor.

 

I think nobody ever expected the two categories ("Chancellor" and "Force-using criminal") to overlap, so I'm gonna guess there isn't actually a precedent/specified mechanism or organization to determine what happens in that situation.

 

The main reference to it comes from The Jedi Path - but that's in the Recruitment section. Still, "authority to take custody of force-sensitives" may apply to force-sensitive criminals as well - with an ordinary jail having difficulty holding them, it would make sense to send them to a Jedi-run jail before trial.

The Jedi Path
pp141-143

ENLISTING NEW MEMBERS
BY MORRIT CH'GALLY, JEDI RECRUITER

The Jedi, as you well know, forbid romantic attachment. We do not marry, nor do we breed powerful lineages from our greatest members How then do we survive from generation to generation, or rebuild our numbers after the decimation of war?

The Force supplies the answer. Any being, regardless of homeworld, species, wealth, or the social status of his or her family, can be born with the ability to touch the Force. These beings have a gift, and if we don't teach them how to do it, the Jedi Order is responsible for squandering that gift.

In fact, those who don't learn to harness their talents at a young age may come to view the Force as a curse. On some planets, those who are Force-sensitive may be persecuted as demonic magicians, or may become so enamored with their otherworldly powers that they may become exactly the monsters their neighbours fear. Once they have reached this state, it is difficult to bring them into the light of Jedi teachings, which in past decades has made them easy marks for the Sith.

The responsible use of power takes a lifetime to perfect, and therefore the Jedi Order only rarely accepts members who are older than a few years. Most of you came to the Temple as infants.

Locating Force-strong newborns is a straightforward process, at least within the Republic's borders. Mandatory blood tests performed at birth record the concentration of midi-chlorians in an infant's cells, and positive results are forwarded to the Jedi Temple for follow-up. Because midi-chlorian analysis is not always definitive - particularly among older children or beings with unusual physiologies - special tools or puzzles may be employed instead. These include the testing screen, a tool that records a subject's ability to read minds or view images remotely, and the mental maze, a test which determines whether a subject can use rudimentary telekinesis.

MISPERCEPTIONS OF THE JEDI

The job of a Jedi Recruiter can be thankless. While many families are proud to have their offspring chosen by the Force, the practical reality of taking a child away from his or her parents is messy and unpleasant. We Jedi firmly believe that Force-strong beings have a right to receive the best training available, and our way requires shunning emotional commitment, especially toward one's birth family. Yet something that seems self-evident to us has been characterized as monstrous in the Holonet. I admit that while we recruiters are vital to the continuation of the Order, we don't do much to burnish the Order's reputation.

The following are perennial slurs levelled against the Order. As a Jedi Knight you must do your part to counter these lies, not by arguing but by setting an example of selflessness and service.

The Jedi are sorcerers. Popular on primitive worlds and among adherents of certain religious sects, this belief betrays a misunderstanding of the Force's presence throughout the universe. The Force is a real, demonstrable phenomenon, not a twist of forbidden "magic". Through our connection to the Force, the Jedi are the agents of life itself.

The Jedi are kidnappers. An all too familiar accusation for Jedi Recruiters, this charge springs from the pain of emotional attachment. It is also technically false. Within the Republic, the Jedi Order has the legal authority to take custody of Force-sensitives, and some Masters have argued that the Force's presence in a child indicates that child's consent to join the Order even before he or she is able to speak.

The Jedi are brainwashers. The belief is in part due to the secrecy surrounding Jedi training and in part due to a widespread misunderstanding of the so-called Jedi mind trick. Some claim that the Order is responsible for mass hypnosis and mind-control. Patently untrue.

The Jedi are elitists. It is fashionable to equate the presence of midi-chlorians with genetic superiority, but the Force chose to manifest itself through the symbiosis in our cells. The Force can call anyone, and is thus the very definition of egalitarian.

 

Order 65 is not canon. It was an invention of Karen Traviss not George Lucas and is nothing more than a Legend. The clones would never follow the Jedi against the Chancellor, and even if they did, all Palpatine has to do is say three words and they would turn on the Jedi instantly.

But Order 65 isn't canon, and it didn't play into the Jedi's plans to arrest Palpatine.

 

The notion that Order 66 is one of many Contingency Orders though, may have been given to Traviss by Lucas, or one of Lucas's people, when she asked about it.

 

True, but I always imagined Order 65 was a contingency order if Palpatine had somehow NOT been Chancellor. I imagine he planned for almost any scenario.

 

The whole plan rides on Palpatine being Chancellor. He wanted the Republic to give him the power and control that was so rightfully his and the Sith's.

 

I imagine that he let Order 65 be made for appearance's sake, but had no intentions of ever allowing it to be executed. Having that sort of thing would lessen the potential for somebody to find the existence of Order 66 suspicious.

 

The legality of the attempted arrest is a moot point. Without explicit definition of what the galactic laws are, and how they apply to the Chancellor or the Jedi, one cannot speak to whether it was legal or not. Are the Jedi acting under the direction, or the perceived direction, of the Galactic Senate? Yes. Do the Jedi feel they are doing what is right for the Galaxy? Yes. That said, though, without intimate knowledge of the legal workings, we cannot speak as to whether the attempted arrest was legal or not. IMO, this is more about whether it was right or not to attempt the arrest, and that comes down to point of view. What one sees as right, another may see as traitorous.

 

They probably had an arrest warrant of some kind I'm guessing.


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Yes his arrest was legal. Treason is a crime no matter who commits it.

 

We're not talking of Order 66, but of his actions before that.


By being the de facto leader of the Separatists - Dooku is their public leader, Sidious issues Dooku orders in private - that qualifies.

And then there's orchestrating the invasion of Naboo in TPM.



Imagine discovering that Hitler and/or the ruler of Japan, were secretly the American president's minions, doing everything on his orders. I think the population would cry "treason".

 

The very fact that he is Chancellor of the Republic as well as leader of the Separatists is treason on both sides of the war.

 

I'd say so since the Sith are corrupt and want to rule everyone through oppression. Sith philosophy is treason against freedom.

 

The problem is they don't have any proof of this. How would the public react if NSA operatives went and arrested the President based solely on some agent saying he is a traitor? The only person who could really testify to this is Dooku, and he's not only dead but the leader of the enemy. He would not be believed any more than some Al Qaida terrorist would.

Palpatine holds all the cards here.

 

The "he's a Sith" bit comes with "he's Dooku's master" by implication. In the EU (Labyrinth of Evil) they'd gotten hold of a message to a "Darth Sidious" - were closing in on him, but before they could actually reach him, he disappeared - at the same time as Palpatine was abducted by Grievous.

 

As I've said before, a thousand years earlier, the Sith had taken control of the galaxy and were defeated by the Jedi and what was left of the Republic at the time. Given their tyrannical actions and the war that they started, I'd say that the Sith were war criminals then. And while there has never been an official statement that being a Sith is an illegal crime, given all that happened in the PT and the OT, including that Palpatine never cops to being a Sith, tells me it was a crime. Palpatine may hold the cards, but until he is put away so that the Jedi can prove their case, there was very little choice but to act first.

 

In the EU, there was both a book that said "The Sith are an illegal organisation" (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, set during the end of the the last Sith War, 1000 years before ANH) and a scene where Palpatine pulls the "there are laws against persecuting people for being Sith" card" (RoTS novel):



[the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis]
PALPATINE: Why, Master Windu. What a pleasant surprise.
MACE WINDU: Hardly a surprise, Chancellor. And it will be pleasant for neither of us.
PALPATINE: I'm sorry? Master Fisto, hello. Master Kolar, greetings. I trust you are well. Master Tiin—I see your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings four Jedi Masters to my office at this hour?
MACE WINDU: We know who you are. What you are. We are here to take you into custody.
PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.
MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.
PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?
MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!
PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact— the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?
MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.
PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.
MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.
PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.
MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.
[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]
PALPATINE: Resist? How could I possibly resist? This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you? Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?
[sounds of scuffle]
KIT FISTO: Saesee—
AGEN KOLAR: [garbled; possibly "It doesn't hurt"(?)]
[sounds of scuffle]
PALPATINE: Help! Help! Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!
[recording ends]

 

Well, *I* think the "you're a Sith" assertion was the shorthand for "you're a Sith AND the one behind the war," because I don't think the Jedi would just march into the Chancellor's office pre-all this events/presuming no war just "because." Now, some Jedi may have argued for this (may!) but saner heads would have asked, "So what's he done to sustain arresting him?"

IMHO.

 

The movies themselves don't make it clear whether or not this maneuver was legal. We have no idea what, if any, authority the Jedi have to arrest a Supreme Chancellor. We know a Supreme Chancellor can be removed by a vote of no confidence but that obviously didn't happen here. Generally speaking, in democracies the military does not have the authority to oust an elected leader on their own, and the Jedi were serving as Generals in the military. If anything, it sure looks quite a bit like a coup, especially the line about the Jedi "taking control" of the Senate.

My interpretation has always been that Mace Windu knew that Palpatine was pretty much the most dangerous man in the galaxy and he would arrest (kill?) him first then deal with the consequences and legal fallout later.

 

A case could be made that they should have shown a warrant - but in democracies, even rulers are not above the law.

 

It wasn't legal. Why? Here are the bullet points:

+ An arrest that wasn't sanctioned by the Senate who would want to know why arresting the Supreme Chancellor is necessary. They weren't even aware that this was happening until Palpatine/Sidious informed them. I may be wrong, but in most democratic nations, the leader of the land (or galaxy in this case) isn't arrested without the approval of a senate/parliament. They would be the first to be given the evidence warranting the leader's arrest. I imagine with the Galactic Republic, there are long-set channels to follow through for any glitch or potential emergency within the political system itself. 'What to Do if the Supreme Chancellor Broke the Law' is one of them.

+ The charge is mainly 'He's a Sith Lord' which is a really lousy explanation. As far as the Senate would be concerned, the Sith were some by-gone legend of old, so the Jedi would basically be arresting Palpatine for having a little hobby he likes to do in his spare time. You can see how this makes the Jedi look insane.

+ Even if the Jedi found evidence that would pin Palpatine as the reason the Clone Wars happened, they did all this without bothering to inform the Senate of their intentions. Without bothering to get sanctions from the Senate for this to be legal. Let's say they found the evidence and Palpatine gave himself in. The Jedi would have to explain their unsanctioned moves to the Senate who would probably not be willing to sympathize with the Jedi.

Morally and ethically justified? Sure. Legally? No. They didn't go through the proper channels, and because of this, it was easy for Palpatine to paint them as treasonous criminals who attempted to kill him.