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PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    That's true, but in democracies the military and law enforcement entities do not get to make that determination. The courts and legislature do.
     
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  2. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Also a republic is different than a democracy, from a technical standpoint
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Republic of the Saga might be different from an Earth government. Meaning that the Jedi might have some leeway here.
     
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  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The democratic element may vary. The Senate might Vote (including on who's going to be the next chancellor) - but that doesn't mean that every senator was elected.

    Reminds me of the old joke about the difference between democracy and feudalism:

    "In democracy, your vote counts. In feudalism, your Count votes."
     
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  5. Ian Moone

    Ian Moone Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2014
    off course it was legal, since Palpatine's election as Supreme chancellour was illegal
     
  6. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Then you have direct democracy, versus representative democracy.
     
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  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Actually, it was legal. The only illegal actions was that he bribed certain senators, according to the novelizations of ANH and ROTJ. The true illegal actions was his involvement in the invasion of Naboo. But evidence of that could only be found after he was detained.
     
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  8. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    So you are suggesting that people should get arrested in order to obtain against them. Thats one hell of a criminal justice system.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Not at all. But in this case, the suspect in question was a Sith Lord who was one step ahead of them and this left the Jedi with little options. They couldn't bring this to the Senate, because Palpatine would be aware and would move to discredit the Jedi. Which includes hiding evidence. By detaining Palpatine first, they would then be free to search for the evidence to take him to trial. Remember, the courts were unable to gain a conviction on Nute Gunray because of the Sith. They were able to sweep away all evidence linking the Federation to their mysterious benefactors, thus making their credibility suspect and also allowed them to go free.
     
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  10. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2014
    Yes and that's why i really loved Rise of the Empire Era (PT) because there was so much political manipulations, no good side no bad side but gray side, no one was absolutely right or wrong (From the point of view of the law in any case) unlike OT where everything is linear and the gap good guy-bad guy is really tremendous and typical of the stories of princess and knight serving (fortunately GL got the idea to created Palpatine, thus removing the mantle of villain to Vader so that he can be better exploited). But let us return to our subject. Yes, from the point of view of the law, Mace and his pals had not the right to arrest Palpatine without solid evidence and without having beforehand informed the judicials. But as some people have said above, it was a case of major force because Palpatine was in reality Darth Sidious, The Dark Lord of the Sith and the mastermind of this war and seen that it controlled the Galactic Senate and that it had granted him even more power than he should have in order to win this war as quickly as possible, the Jedi were the only obstacle between him and Absolute Power.
    So in your opinion, what were they supposed to do?
    Thank you for reading me.
     
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  11. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012

    Which begs another questions, Is mere association with the Sith cult or the Sith in general, sufficient grounds for arrest in the galactic republic. So much for freedom of association. I
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    As I've argued before, the Sith had overthrown the Republic over a thousand years ago and enslaved much of the galaxy until the remnants of the Jedi Order and the Republic banded together to take back the galaxy and eliminated the Sith. From all indications, it seems as if being a Sith is a crime. And especially now that they're involved in the war. There are only two Sith Lords at a time, one is dead. The other has just outed himself. Dooku told Obi-wan that a Sith controls the Senate is behind everything. That's more than criminal enough.
     
  13. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2014


    I don't understand your point, Bazinga'd. What do yo really want to know ? Because we have given you the answer of your question, but apparently you do not seem to be satisfied with.
     
  14. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    zompusbite What I really want to know, is what are you thinking by responding to my question like that?
     
  15. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I think the Sith in general. I mean, would you want someone whose associated with a group of psychopathic maniacs to be the head of state of your country? Hell no!

    Researching the Sith is fine, it's when one become aligned with them and attempts to dominate the galaxy for them that it becomes a problem.
     
  16. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Should we arrest people for their belief system, is my point. In other should we go out and arrest skinheads solely for the fact that they are a hate group? I would suggest the answer should be a resounding no. There are plenty of analogies in the political area as well.
     
  17. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    The problem with Mace Windu's accusation was it was a case of "he said, Sheev said." :p
     
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  18. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2014
    Now i understand your point. Yes, what Mace did'nt understand is that by doing what he was about to do, the Jedi had already lost. He (by extension, the other Jedi) has lost all credibility with the public opinion. Because even if he had managed to arrest Palpatine, not only the Galactic Senate but also the citizens of the Republic would have been opposed to the Jedi on the grounds that we can not arrest someone for his religious affiliation. The Jedi have lost against the Sith when they have ratified the Ruusan Reformation : they feared so much the reappearance of the Sith that they have done everything to erase their existence from the records (which played in the favor of Bane and Zannah). They have so much wanted to protect the Republic of any danger including of itself that it has created a feeling of oppression, of anger and revolt among the inhabitants. What fact that at the time of PT, no one except the Jedi do really knew what it was to be a Sith. At a pinch, it was believed that they were Dark Jedi who had decided to no longer serve but who wanted to be served, thus increasing the feeling of suspicion of public opinion toward the Jedi. Just as Mace Windu himself has said in RotS novelization: "Since the fall of Darth Bane more than a millennium ago, there have been hundreds of thousands of Jedi-hundreds of thousands of Jedi feeding the light with each work of their hands, with each breath, with every beat of their hearts, bringing justice, building civil society, radiating peace, acting out of by Anamika Arora love for all living things-and in all thesis thousand years, there have been only two Sith at any time. Only two. Jedi create light, aim the Sith do not create darkness. They merely use the darkness that is always there. That has always been there. Greed and jealousy, aggression and lust and fear-thesis are all natural to sentient beings. The legacy of the jungle. Our inheritance from the dark."
    Thank you for having read me.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He's not being arrested solely because of his religious beliefs, but because of his actions as a Sith Lord are tied to war crimes committed by the Confederacy, going back to the Naboo invasion and ending with his alleged kidnapping. Three years ago Dooku told Obi-wan that a Sith Lord was behind the Naboo blockade and the conflict that transpired. He told him that said Sith Lord was now in control of the Senate. Chancellor Palpatine just outed himself as a Sith Lord to Anakin. That makes him in league with Dooku and the Confederacy and thus a criminal.
     
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  20. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Yes, but what evidence do that Jedi have indicating that Palpatine (1) is a Sith, and (2) he was behind the Naboo invsaion? Anakin's comment to Mace Windu, does not seem to be in and itself enough to charge him with crimes.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Palpatine voluntarily admitted that he was Darth Sidious. That's enough to arrest him and then while he's in custody, find the evidence linking him to the Confederacy. Such as the transmitter to where they're hiding on Mustafar and Utapau. Not to mention Dooku's own admission that Sidious was behind the invasion. Once Palpatine is in custody, negotiations would take place and the testimony of Nute Gunray can be obtained verifying this.

    All Anakin said to Mace was that Palpatine was powerful and that he wouldn't give up his power without a fight. His only objection was Mace killing Palpatine in cold blood, but that was more due to his needing Palpatine to help him save Padme.
     
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  22. mratm23

    mratm23 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 13, 2014
    Whether it was legal or not who cares? I'd take that dude in no matter what. I would however maybe planned it out a bit and not just charged in there on the word of Anakin, who was unstable as hell and Mace didn't even trust him in the first place. Had he been apprehended and all his secrets were revealed, I doubt there would be any consequences for the Jedi Order.
     
  23. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    You raise an important point. Mace Windu did not have proof to arrest Palpatine. He only had the word of Anakin Skywalker which has weight because he is a friend of the Chancellor, but in order to convince the courts Windu and the Jedi would need to catch Palpatine using the Dark Side or provoke him into using it publicly where The Senate could see it. Even then, Sidious might still not be convicted because of the corruption among the senators. Hence why Windu says, "He has control of the courts! He's too dangerous to be left alive!"
     
  24. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Admissions without independent corroborating evidence is not definitive proof. Plus even if Palpatine admitted he was a Sith, he did not admit to being behind the invasion. I am not even sure that Obi Wan believed Dooku's claim that a Sith was behind the invasion.

    Again, what is the crime in merely associating with a "unpopular" group? We dont throw people in jail for being a member of a group that has a unpopular belief system. (However, to be fair, see the real world analog of how we handled people affiliated with terrorist groups).
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Except it was Qui-gon Jinn who said that the Sith were involved when Maul attacked him and then was at Naboo. The Jedi Council knew that the Sith were involved, but they did not know the name of Maul's associate until Dooku told Obi-wan on Geonosis. And when Palpatine admits to being a Sith, that's when they realize he's Darth Sidious.


    An unpopular group that was controlling the opposing faction in a war and had a thousand years ago, enslaved the Republic. Not to mention knowledge that the Sith were involved in everything going back to the Naboo invasion was enough for the Jedi to arrest him. Convicting him would come later after the evidence was gathered.