main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Arrest of Palpatine...Legal?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthbarracuda, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. beedubaya

    beedubaya Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2014

    I compare the Republic more to today's Germany than America. In Germany today, it is still illegal to be in any way associated with Nazism due to the history that society has with it. In the Republic it was just as taboo and illegal to be associated with the Sith.
     
    ILNP and Iron_lord like this.
  2. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    That's a great analogy actually. Germany's "hate" laws would never pass Constitutional Scrutiny here in the US.
     
  3. Jedi Kao Cen Darach

    Jedi Kao Cen Darach Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2014
    Remember, being a Sith is being a direct enemy to the republic. It is like arresting a terrorist in the United States for comiting war crimes and murder. Or like arresting Obama for treason... Let's not get into that! They were not arresting him for being a Sith, they were arresting the Chancellor for treason. So yes, if it was brought forth to the Jedi Council in advance, then they, the co-directiors of the Republic have the authority to remove a corrupt Sith from a powerful position in office.
     
  4. elbertino

    elbertino Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2006
    I will make it legal.
    Lovely comparison.
     
  5. Grand Master Galen Marek

    Grand Master Galen Marek Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2014
    I think Mace was going to kill Palpatine anyway & the emperor knew I wonder why there was no shadow guards present for the jedi to go through Anakin's decision to expose Palpatine brought his own downfall anyway he killed jedi younglings got his senator wife pregnant Mace had every reason to kill him he was a sith anyway if he had give him the rank of master he could not be arrested until this. Yes the emperor was still in charge at this time so I doubt this arrest was legal by time they would have got him to the senate building a few thousands clone troopers would have stood in the way. A great battle would have occured shame.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Mace wasn't going to kill Palpatine until the fight was over.

    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.


    So Mace was never going to kill Palpatine until that point. The Imperial Guards are hardly ever in Palpatine's office when he's alone and the ones outside were taken care of by the Jedi Posse on their way in.
     
  7. Nooo8oooo

    Nooo8oooo Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2014
    Here is why Mace's attempt to arrest Palpatine was justified:
    The Jedi and Republic High Command knew that "Darth Sidious" was the secret head of the CIS. Once Mace learned that Palpatine was also Sidious, that meant that the Republic leader was also the leader of the CIS... He Controlled both sides of the war. This obviously makes him guilty of:
    -High treason: he created and ruled a massive rebel movement
    -War crimes: he instigated the war and kept it going for 3 years, making him indirectly accountable for every death occurring as a result of it.
    It would be like if Winston Churchill had secretly been Hitler's leader during WWII. THAT is the kind of treason and war crimes that Palpatine committed.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  8. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Without Due Process and a trial, there is no such thing as "guilty"
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Certainly. The question is - when one is a law-enforcement officer (of sorts) who has uncovered some evidence of treason - what is one legally permitted to do?

    Was Mace required to apply for a warrant first? Or does that take "doing it by the book" to ridiculous lengths in the circumstances?
     
  10. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Arguably the an exigent circumstance COULD justify his arrest.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  11. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Talking of Nazi Germany raises another question. Is the legality of an action even a worthwhile question in terms of whether an action is right or not? For instance, in Nazi occupied Poland it became a criminal act to harbor Jews, would anyone base their judgements of those doing so on the basis of the law? In some countries it is illegal to participate in any opposition political action or party, does it follow that it is wrong to do so?

    The law is simply a man-made judicial (or even, often, supra-judicial) construct. If the mechanisms of state have been corrupted and no longer reflect the values of the ruled, do they have any moral basis any longer?

    What value, ultimately, does the question of the legality of arresting Palpatine actually have?
     
  12. Big_Benn_Klingon

    Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2013
    I suspect the Jedi have be given extra-legal discretion within the republic due to their relationship to the state and because they are viewed to have access to information (via the force), that is not necessarily empirically verifiable by the majority of non-force sensitive beings. It would seem that the force is believed to be a real material thing (rather than a subjective religion) by the state and as such, the republic has assumingly established a legal framework regarding how Jedi can unilaterally act in crisis situations. What that legal framework may be is up to the imagination, but I couldn't imagine something like that wouldn't exist.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    This presumes that Due Process exists in the GFFA, or at the very least, operates under the same rules.

    It matters because the question is what would Palpatine have done if Anakin hadn't shown up, or had chosen not to act. Would the arrest still hold weight if he had complied and let himself be taken in? Were the Jedi right in going down this path, regardless of Yoda's concerns? Could Palpatine use this to his advantage to justify Order 66?
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Big_Benn_Klingon likes this.
  15. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    But isn't that exactly what Mace Windu refers to when he says that Palpatine has the Senate and the courts under his control? What value does Anakin's argument that he should stand trial have here? Especially as we know that Anakin is quite capable of acting in an 'extra-judicial' manner when it comes to those he perceives as his enemies, and when we know that his real reason for keeping Palpatine alive is because he wants something from him "I need him".

    Edit: I see now that you are, in fact, asking pretty much the same question. Had Palpatine allowed himself to be arrested, would that actually have played into his hands...
     
    Bazinga'd and Iron_lord like this.
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He had plans within plans. He knew that in either scenario, the Jedi were going to be put through the ringer. But it is more than that. Palpatine has been planting the seeds for years that supporting a dictatorship was preferable than the petty squabbling of the Senate. Hence the picnic conversation Anakin has with Padme, which then leads into his rant about taking out Palpatine and ruling together, and connects back to his pitch to Luke to join him. So what he is doing is creating in Anakin's mind the idea that when push comes to shove, the Jedi will show their true colors. And that is what he uses to prompt Anakin to attack Mace.

    But beyond Anakin, Palpatine anticipated the possibility that Anakin might not bite yet. He didn't earlier on the Invisible Hand. He killed Dooku, but he didn't turn yet and Obi-wan was still alive. So he had to work out a new scenario. The only way this wouldn't work is if the Jedi could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the mastermind. But that could only happen once he was in custody. Time in which he could continue to raise doubts about the Jedi's actions and paint it as slander against him.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.