Asimov's influence over the saga

Many factors influenced the creation of Star Wars. I will tell you of one which no one discusses. Issac Asimov is most famous for his 7 book foundation series. In it a galactic empire falls and then must face the rebel foundation. The books are wonderful. Other ideas like space fleets of ships and escaping the empire in space are all explained. One character has the name Bail Channis similar to Bail Organa. It is very similar and you should all read the books they are better then Star Wars. They are

PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION
FORWARD THE FOUNDATION
FOUNDATION
FOUNDATION AND EMPIRE
SECOND FOUNDATION
FOUNDATION'S EDGE
FOUNDATION AND EARTH*

*--it is out of print.

They are all written by Issac Asimov

 

Star Wars is based on the Foundation Series

Lucas may have been influenced by the series in a few ways, but Star Wars is not based on Foundation.

Nice try, though.

-Otis

 

They both contain a city planet at the centre of the galaxy.

 

I know that Asimov used "parsec" as a measure of galactic distance and travel in his Foundation series and it's mentioned a few times in the SW Saga too.

Dex: 4 parsecs south of the Rishi Maze.

Han: It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs.

 

It's been awhile since I read them, but wasn't there also the character called the Mule, who could see into the minds of men, and tries to gain control. This is reminiscent of Palpatine, and the "wildcard" aspect of someone bringing down a government could also relate to Luke.

Not saying this is how it's supposed to be seen...just pointing out similarities. Remember that SW and Dune both have backwater desert planets that end up being the home of individuals who change the ways of the galaxy (2 individuals, in the case of Star Wars. )

 

Yes the Mule is very much like Palpatine. with his mutant powers he is able to defeat the first foundation and build a small Empire. The book that is most similar is Foundation and Empire. In that book the Imperial navy goes to war with the Foundation which is independent so in away like the rebel alliance. The empire believes they will win and underestimate the power of the Foundation.

 

I always thought there was a tiny bit of R-Daneel Olivaw, in See Threepio. He was sort of a Droid with Jedi powers. Threepio is a droid with annoying powers.

I do love that series of books though.

 

There's a huge influence from Asimov's works in Star Wars. As it was pointed out, the droids are very similar to the famous Asimov robots, and I think there's mention of "positronic brains" in Star Wars.

And Coruscant IS Trantor, the city planet at the center of the galaxy. This is how Asimov describes Trantor, look:

"All the land surface of Trantor, 75,000,000 square miles in extent, was a single city. The population, at its height, was well in excess of forty billions. This enormous population was devoted almost entirely to the administration necessities of Empire, and found themselves all too few for the complications of the task. (It is to be remembered that the impossibility of proper administration of the Galactic Empire under the uninspired leadership of the later Emperors was a considerable factor in the Fall). Daily, fleets of ships in the tens of thousands brought the produce of twenty agricultural worlds to the dinner tables of Trantor...Its dependence upon the outer worlds for food and, indeed, all the necessities of like, made Trantor increasingly vulnerable to conquest by siege. In the last millennium of the Empire, the monotonously numerous of revolts made Emperor after Emperor conscious of this, and Imperial policy became little more than the protection of Trantor's delicate jugular vein..."

Can't you hear John Williams' score playing in the background when you read this "opening crawl"?

 

The Second Foundation is like the Jedi.

1. They have mind powers and can influence people with their mind.

2. They are mysterious and unknown to many

3. They can reunite the empire under one governmet they will rise again.

Those two are very similar.

The Mule is similar to Palpatine

Trantor=Couracant

the parsec and droid thing and in both series pilots must make calculations before hyperspace.

The two are extremely similar they are the story of the fall of an empire.

 

"I always thought there was a tiny bit of R-Daneel Olivaw, in See Threepio."

Oooh, never even thought of that! Nice find.

 

I wish they made the seven books into seven movies. They would make block buster hits.

 

On a side note I am really excited I went to borders and ordered Foundation And Earth because it is out of print. I am currently reading Second foundation. They are so similar to Star Wars. Any more posts?

 

I'm definitely a fan of Aimov's stories. I've mostly only read the short robot stories, but just recently read Foundation. I've now bought the rest of the series and will be reading those back to back as soon as my exams are over.

But anyway, there definitely are similarities, and while I've seen a lot of places mentioning them, saying Asimov was the one who gave Lucas the ideas, I feel I can remember an Ask the Jedi Council about it. Rick McC or someone had been reading the books and mentioned them to Lucas, who was amazed at the similarities himself. Of course my memory's a bit foggy on this, but the similarities are quite astounding, such as Trantor/Coruscant, the force-field penknife/lightsabers, Korrellia/Corellia.

 

About space travel: The parsecs and making calculations isn't special. A parsec is an actual unit of measure for space only, that's why it keeps popping up. As for making calculations, that only makes sense. Sure you could go into hyperspace blindly and come out randomly, but how would you orient in yourself??? Its just a bunch of space and stars. You'd be lost forever if you didn't figure out where the h**l you were going ahead of time.

About The Mule: I don't think they're very similar, really. The Mule was born with extensive mind-control powers. He derails the specific plan of the Foundation, as laid out in the mathematical formulas of Seldon. More to this point, the Jedi are more like the X-Men than the Second Foundation, in that they just kind of go along with things and keep the peace. The Second Foundation has very specific goals stretching over decades, and they must ensure that all of these take place in order for their plans to come to fruition. The Jedi just help out when an akward situation comes up. I don't think that saying "they have mental powers" is a very good parallel to draw. There not very similar in any other respects.

In conclusion, no I don't think they are very similar storywise. One major difference is theme: Asimov's is about the general collapse, decay, and rebuilding of civilization, while Lucas's features the deliberate toppling, seizure, and recovery, of the government. That's two very different things in my mind. Although yes, Coruscant is clearly modeled after Trantor.

 

Maybe Anakin was based on the Mule. I mean, Anakin is not a normal person, he was born out of nowhere (a mutation?) and will change everything around him.

(and I read somewhere that in some making off they show George writing on a notebook questions about Anakin's birth, and one of them as "a mutation?")

 

Not to spoil anyone who hasn't read the entire series, but I will say only this: the mule was not a mutation, friends. . .

 

The second foundation is nothing like the x-men but are similar to the jedi. I won't give away the story I myself am reading Foundation's Edge but I will say this.

1. The Second Foundation is a group that will keep the peace and order of the galaxy.

2. They have mind powers and can influence others.

3. They have a knowlege of the future and most protect it.

4. They are mysterious and secretive.

5. WARNING SPOILER DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED SECOND FOUNDATION: The Second Foundation is located on a city planet in the center of the galaxy it has already been determined that Trantor = Couracant and the Second Founadation is on Trantor.

All of these traits listed above are similar to that of the Jedi.

Review of what has been determined

the Mule is like Anakin and Palpatine.

The second foundation is similar to the jedi

the Empire is very similar to Palpatines empire

Trantor=Couracant

The First Foundation is similar to the Rebels

R. Daneel is similar to C-3P0

The parsec, hyperspace, calculation thing

The whole space navy imperial space battles was developed by Asimov.

There are many factors which are similar.

Star Wars= The rise and fall of an empire

Foundation= The fall and rise of an empire, Foundation is the story of the fall of a first empire and the rise of a second.

To me they are very very similar. Does any one else have a conclusion about the two to make?

 

I agree the Second Foundaiton is notinhg like the X-Men, that was my point. If the main connection being drawn is, "they have mental powers" you could say they were similar to a whole variety of things which they are not. The most important differences between the Seconf Foundation and the Jedi are:

1. The Second Foundation know the future as almost a certainty. They know if x, then y. This is much better than the Jedi, whom occasionally, get visions regarding some point in time (whether past, present, or future is not clear) and with an interpretations that aren't really very straightforward at all. Nor is it certain, as with the Prophecy, that they are actually credible. These are two very different ways of seeing the future.

2. The Second Foundation has mind control powers much more extensive than the Jedi. The Jedi can make suggestions which affect only "weak-minded" people for a limited amount of time, usually in regards to only one decision/action. The Second Foundation can alter people's mindset permanently (if I remember correctly), shape their disposition, and their decisions. They can do this to anyone lacking the same caliber of mental capacity (them/they/it/Gaea and the Mule, mostly), and sometimes even to them too. These are two very different things, again.

3. The Jedi are an obscure religion, whose intricacies and some special practices are not known/understood by the public (non-practicioners). Beyond this, the Jedi are in the public eye frequently, often acting as a military/law enforcement/diplomatic arm of government. For instance, in the Coruscant cantina: "This is Jedi business." Note this is true of nearly all religions. The Second Foundation is a group whose success depends on the fact that no one outside of their circle even knows of their existence, with only a few exceptions. Yet again, radically different takes on the same concept.

And of course, two different types of stories are being told. My point is that if you're going to draw parallels, they should have more substance. Mysterious good guys, mental powers, and ability to see the future are all common story conventions that have begin with us since the dawn of mankind. That's why their called "conventions." A more substantive parallel I would see as addressing something specific, for instance: story X is similar to SW in that both feature the rise fall, and subsequent redemption of a family on a grandiose scale. In other words, I think this people are taking common story-telling elements and trying to make them plot parallels.

To conclude, yes, clearly Coruscant is Trantor. This is a very clear connection that can be drawn, as Asimov was one of the first to forward and popularize this idea, so it would make sense that Lucas borrowed it. However, with conventions (things that weren't unique to Asimov's writing), I don't think Lucas should have his use of them contributed to borrowing from Asimov. That's about it.

Edit: Find a copy of Foundation & Earth if you can, its pretty good. I read it some years ago.

 

I know the two are not identical all I and others are saying they are similar. The Second Foundation and The Jedi are not identical but are similar. Lucas took foundation, mythology, history, westerns, and other science fiction and blended them all together. Things are different but Foundation was part of the mixture. No official book says Foundation was an influence but it was. things are not identical but are similar.

 

Spoilers for Foundation and Earth if you haven't read it stop here.






I read this so long ago but isn't that the one where they go looking for the mythical Earth and find it radioactive? That book disturbed me a lot emotionally. The fate of the human race turns out to have been manipulated by a Robot with special powers. Though his intentions are for the good of mankind, it is a little like Palpatine who used his powers to control the fate of the GFFA.

 

First, I know you're saying there similar. My argument is that they are do not have substantial similarities. As I said earlier, their are mysterious good guy people with mental powers in X-Men to, but as we all agree this similarity between the X-men and the Second Foundation is not substantial. In the same way, I am arguing that the simlarity between the Jedi and the Second Foundation is insubstantial, especially compared to something like Trantor/Coruscant.

SPOILER WARNING: FOUNDATION & EARTH




Its been a few years for me too, but I don't know why you're upset. He was the grand arch connecting the "Caves Of Steel" novels to the "Foundation" ones. He was Daneel Olivaw, the first humaniform robot, and partner to (whatever that Earth detective guys name was). He was Jeremy Leto Cleon Alexander Demerzel, advisor to the ruler of the Galaxy, and later close friend and aid to Harry Seldon. He was the final safeguard, more than even the Second Foundation. In other words, he manipulated the Glaaxy no more than Seldon or the members of Second Foundation did.

Secondly, Earth became radioactive due to what I think was pollution. He stated specfically that after the secodn wave of colonization, Earth was in horrible state and the Spacers were dying out. In honor of his original detective friend, he tried to have new soil shipped in to Earth and the place cleaned up to let it survive. But ultimately it was a lost cause. He and other robots with mental powers established a Moon base (on "the" moon) and set in motion the plan to guard and save humanity. So if he did wrong, no more so than the heores of the story, and if good, then he was one of the most influential characters of all, and worthy of honor. So I guess if I'm remembering right, I don't see why you're upset with the fellow.

 

Spoilers:







JW: Oh Daneel is one of my favorite characters but it was still disturbing that he had all this power. He's sort of the grand architect of the galaxy and human history. How many Emperor's did he say he advised over the years. Oh and I think you may have that part about the radioactivity wrong. If I am remembering correctly, it was Daneel himself that set off the machine that made Earth radioactive. He did it to force humanity out into the stars. He felt that Earth would become too much of a focal point and hold back the progress of humanity and for their sake, he destroyed the home world. The thought of my Earth being made lifeless was a little hard to take. We have such a beautiful planet and sacrificing it in such a cold manner just strikes me as straying a bit into the darkside there.

Sure his motives are to insure the survival of humanity but it still removes free choice from the human race to make their own future.
I find that just a tad bit Palpatine like.

It becomes the Galaxy made into Daneel's image.

 

Please end the spoilers. I am still reading Foundation's Edge and cannot read half the thread. Anyway I'm sure whaterver was in the spoilers supports my argument that Star Wars has taken a few ideas from Issac Asimov.

Foundation= Empire then chaos then Empire again

Star Wars= Republic then the chaotic Empire and then Republic it is really similar to the Foundation cycle.

 

I believe that Foundation and Empire and Second Foundation are the most similar to Star Wars of all the books I have read thus far. Prelude to Foundation was similar in the way that Seldon was escaping from the "evil" empire. I would say that Forward the Foundation is the least similar to Star Wars because it deals mostly with the development of Psychohistory. It must be said that the plot twist at the end of prelude the one involving R. Daneel resembles the I am your father type of twist in the plot.

 

I once heard they were going to make a foundation movie and it is likely that people would say that they stole ideas from Star Wars when in fact Foundation outdated it. Does anyone else have anything to add???