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Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    This book has been out for almost 20 years, sold millions of copies, been read by tens of millions of people, and you're seriously going to make the case that only NM has ever faulted that scene? You want my alternative theory? Most of the people who didn't like the way the scene was handled didn't bother reading the other books and, shock of shocks, don't participate in internet discussions about the books.

    ... No, that's silly. Surely it must be that exactly one person ever has found fault with the scene.

    But seriously, look up argumentum ad populum
     
  2. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Yes, but she was Roger Mortimer's mistress.

    How do you suppose Cersei et al should react when Joffrey suddenly tells the King's Justice to execute the confessed traitor? Joffrey, being a probable sociopath, isn't going to listen to pleas for mercy (indeed, he specifically rejected them). Should she have stood in front of the blade and questioned the King's authority in front of King's Landing? She didn't intend for him to rule in his own right- Tywin and she would do that. This was a unique situation, which isn't analogous to actually letting him run the country.
     
  3. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    She should have asserted her authority right away, I think. Now everyone knows she is powerless, which exposes her to attempts to cut her out of the loop.

    Remember what Ser Whathisname tells Dany? The Dothraki won't follow a suckling babe. Smart bunch. Doesn't matter if he is the blood of the dragon, this is realpolitik.

    At one time in both England and Scotland, the King was chosen was a group of people. The possibles needed to be an adult and a capable war leader. Then they fought it out. The winner thus proved his toughness and fitness for the job. The downside was fairly constant civil war, thus primogeniture. Robert had Tagaryan blood, so technically he was eligible, and he was able to take the throne.
     
  4. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    I was aware the Scottish followed primogeniture, but not the English.

    I'm not sure Cersei's position would have permitted her to assert her authority then and there, but I suppose that might itself be a criticism. It's one thing to wield power in court or in council chambers, but another before the people. Jeoffrey was permitted a speech before a gathered assembly: he essentially used that assembly to assert authority. For Cersei to overrule him after he spoke toward the people would have put her in a weakened position. She could have gotten away with that in a smaller, more close-knit audience, but before the assembled crowds, even the face of power counts for something if you allow that face to speak.

    One might say that Cersei's mistake was permitting Geoffrey that opportunity to speak as to allowing clemency or execution. That she should have spoken on his behalf. This is true, but it could be said that she totally did not expect that her son was not under her full suggestion and control. An easy mistake to make, but a vital one. When you acknowledge someone is the King, you can't publicly contradict him in front of hundreds or thousands of people.
     
  5. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    Maybe you haven't noticed, but Westerosi and the Dothraki are different cultures. The Dothraki respect strength above all; the Westerosi respect blood. Ser Jorah specifically reminded Dany of this when he told her the Dothraki wouldn't follow Drogo's son until said son was strong enough to ride a horse and win battles.
     
  6. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    If the Westerosi respected blood above all, Aerys II would still be king.
     
  7. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Yeah, nobody respects Joffrey at all. Not even Tywin.

    Except his mother who is wilfully blind to his failures and willing to accomodate his craziness, and not to mention he's the only way for her to stay in any powerful position (as becomes clear when Tywin later tells her to get lost.) And so we have her unwillingness to intercede when he wants a powerful but confessed traitor executed. Ilyn just does whatever the King says, he doesn't care who the King is so long as he gets to lop some heads. But you're right, it revealed she's pretty ineffective/powerless/gutless and she's fairly ruthlessly outmaneuvred (I hate that word...) by everyone from that point on. However, she had only 2 bad options- tell Joffrey he's wrong (he would ignore her, and possibly stop listening to her full stop) or do nothing and watch as her only valuable hostage is killed despite her best laid plans. Cersei fails.

    This of course leads to every great house (except the insane Arryns) declaring rebellion because they think a boy king is weak, as you say.
     
  8. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    Wait till you get to book 3 when you'll discover exactly why Jaime killed Aerys.



    As far as I can tell, the news that Jaime had been captured by Robb Stark's forces hadn't reached King's Landing yet. As Tywin so eloquently put it, they could have traded Ned for Jaime and avoided a lot of trouble.

    But Joffrey has let the power of kingship go to his head, and he delights in doling out punishments.
     
  9. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    The point is, the Kings are not without limits in Westeros. There are always limits on leaders, though they differ depending on society, or North Korea wouldn't be currently starving to death.
     
  10. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Except his mother who is wilfully blind to his failures and willing to accomodate his craziness, and not to mention he's the only way for her to stay in any powerful position (as becomes clear when Tywin later tells her to get lost.) And so we have her unwillingness to intercede when he wants a powerful but confessed traitor executed. Ilyn just does whatever the King says, he doesn't care who the King is so long as he gets to lop some heads. But you're right, it revealed she's pretty ineffective/powerless/gutless and she's fairly ruthlessly outmaneuvred (I hate that word...) by everyone from that point on. However, she had only 2 bad options- tell Joffrey he's wrong (he would ignore her, and possibly stop listening to her full stop) or do nothing and watch as her only valuable hostage is killed despite her best laid plans. Cersei fails.

    This of course leads to every great house (except the insane Arryns) declaring rebellion because they think a boy king is weak, as you say.


    I haven't reached this point in the books -- again, it's slow going and I have a lot of things on my plate these days -- but in the series I got the impression that Cersei is sort of assuming she's in a regency position. She actually does make a number of moves on Joffrey's behalf in the court, such as getting rid of Selmy, which appears to have been totally her initiative.

    But again, she seems to be oblivious to the fact that there may be a power struggle waiting to develop (one that becomes clear upon Ned's execution). Joffrey in the series is shown to have a clear amount of autonomy from his mother. Keep in mind the Joffrey in the series is closer to around 15 or 16 than 12, btw... but he clearly is permitted to make executive decisions on punishments even before the situation with Ned, such as removing the minstrel's tongue. Cersei was probably not thinking at that moment since she was one of the prime people insulted by the minstrel and so the fact that it was Jeoffrey really making the decision here likely didn't register.

    Jeoffrey seems to be able to call on the Hound and the Kingsguard to do tasks without asking permission from his mother first. She simply doesn't seem to interfere, but these small freedoms are probably very quickly usurping her position. Has Cersei really ensured the loyalty of the military? They are currently loyal to the Lannisters, but there's been no indication that they're especially loyal to her rather than Jeoffrey. And Jeoffrey is old enough and assertive enough that they might just follow him instead of her: Cersei in the series is not especially charismatic -- she's not a wilting violet, but it doesn't seem she's much of a public speaker capable of inspiration (unlike, say, Robb). Even Lady Arryn appears to have more of a commanding presence then Cersei, mostly on account of her outright insanity.

    Thus, insanity aside, you could sort of say Lady Arryn serves as a more proper regent in reserving power for herself (although she's aided by her child being much younger and more dependant), whereas Cersei can't seem to hold onto power when she gets it and is sort of usurped in a matter of weeks, requiring Tyrion to go down and clean up the mess.
     
  11. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    All of Cersei's power derives from Joffrey. When Joffrey makes a proclamation to have a traitor beheaded in front of thousands of people in the middle of the capital city, she is in no position to step in and put a stop to it, especially when the crowd was cheering on the execution. She did counsel Joffrey beforehand to let Ned take the black, but to openly oppose him? That is suicide, plain and simple.
     
  12. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    All of Cersei's power derives from Joffrey. When Joffrey makes a proclamation to have a traitor beheaded in front of thousands of people in the middle of the capital city, she is in no position to step in and put a stop to it, especially when the crowd was cheering on the execution. She did counsel Joffrey beforehand to let Ned take the black, but to openly oppose him? That is suicide, plain and simple.

    Agreed. Although to be fair, all of Lady Arryn's power derives from Robin.

    But yes, given Jeoffrey's persona that would have either been suicide or a sure way to lose serious face, at least, and come out diminished. She'd already walked into the trap of allowing the people to see Jeoffrey in command, thinking it would only be a show of his autonomy and leadership -- although Jeoffrey probably didn't think of it as a trap, but it served as one for her.

    However, again from the series, note the difference in how matters are conducted. Perhaps it is the age difference of the children but also most likely the different personas of the 'regent': Jeoffrey is allowed to speak when he likes and actually make some minor decisions right in front of Mom. In contrast, Lady Arryn is fully in control of her court. In her situation, Robin speaks rarely and mostly to his mother. The only command he gives ("Fight!") is something his mother has already arranged, and he is simply initiating what she has ordained.
     
  13. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    That's a pretty good analysis of Cersei, I think (and as you get further on you'll see just how ineffective she actually is.) She is technically the Regent but it's mainly the Hand (Tyrion, and then Tywin) that is controlling things. She far overestimates her own abilities at all times, and her love for her kids blinds her to their faults.

    Lysa has a similar controlling personality, but Robin is much more tractable and his personality is basically subsumed into Lysa's at this point, unlike the strongwilled Joffrey, so it was much easier for her to keep him under control. It's also helped that the Vale lords seem to be a lot more stiffnecked and unwilling to directly challenge their leige lord, even if he is a simpering and ill child.
     
  14. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    That's a pretty good analysis of Cersei, I think (and as you get further on you'll see just how ineffective she actually is.) She is technically the Regent but it's mainly the Hand (Tyrion, and then Tywin) that is controlling things. She far overestimates her own abilities at all times, and her love for her kids blinds her to their faults.

    Lysa has a similar controlling personality, but Robin is much more tractable and his personality is basically subsumed into Lysa's at this point, unlike the strongwilled Joffrey, so it was much easier for her to keep him under control. It's also helped that the Vale lords seem to be a lot more stiffnecked and unwilling to directly challenge their leige lord, even if he is a simpering and ill child.


    There's some supreme irony going on in these situations, although I'm not sure if Martin really intended it.

    Both Cersei and Lysa are trying to be regents and mothers at the same time. Despite Cersei's clear incestuous leanings towards her "equal" siblings and cousins and so forth, she is ironically, if you can believe it, setting up normative boundaries between her and Jeoffrey as a mother. At least, proper boundaries as compared to Lysa. Jeoffrey does not appear to feel responsible for his mother's emotions, at least as far as is seen in the series (Ned's execution is the last moment you see either Cersei or Jeoffrey in season 1 so we don't know how they act toward one another afterward).

    In other words, at least from the series, Cersei's relationship with Jeoffrey is actually neither physically or emotionally incestuous. In fact it doesn't even appear to be abusive. She is providing for Jeoffrey, not the other way around.

    Now that said, Cersei's still giving Jeoffrey this completely screwed up moral compass where virtues are practically meaningless, but that's another matter. Whatever his lessons, Jeoffrey is actually his own person, as horrible as he is: thus the power struggle between them where Jeoffrey actually has an upper hand. Jeoffrey is psychologically screwed up, but that's probably, IMO, going to largely be because he was literally told to have a screwed up value system where honor and love have either no meanings or totally screwed up ones. Cersei's LESSONS are corrupt, because they are Tywin's lessons. Had Cersei literally told her son different things and to value different things and set a better example in interacting with other people, Ned might not have wound up executed.


    Lysa on the other hand is in control and as a parent is on some level quite abusive and using Robin to meet her own emotional/physical/whathaveyou needs. In a situation like hers, Robin is going to be stuck in some way at the age at which we see him no matter how old he grows. Even if some of that more physical squickiness stops, he's still going to grow into a dependent persona, most likely to suffer from something like Borderline or Narcissistic personality disorder regardless of what Lysa teaches him on a conscious level. IMO Lysa could literally give Robin the Jon Arryn ethics bible, verbally encourage him and extoll honor and virtue all she likes with a conscious belief in them and let her son watch her be honorable to all the people of the Vale that she likes, but it's never going to matter: regardless of the merits of her lessons, the TEACHER is corrupt as a parent since her acts toward her son have contradicted those ethics, no matter how "good" she might later be or deny and rationalize her strange and abusive behavior to Robin.
     
  15. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    You are spot-on in your analysis of Joffrey and Robert (Robin). Just wait until season 3-4 after Lysa is killed. Robin then transfers a lot of his emotions to his cousin Sansa, even asking her "Are you my mommy now?" That is one messed up kid.
     
  16. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Chapter Sixty-Three: Brandon II

    Summary: A typical Brandon II chapter, which involves loads of exposition, angst, and zero forward momentum.

    Some Thoughts: I?m sure at the time the audience first read this, they thought there would be some pay-off with regard to all this information.. From a viewpoint fifteen years later, the conclusion is: don?t count on it. Martin may just enjoy making stuff up.

    Fantasy Tropes: The prophetic dreams.

    Watch that POV: ?while she dabbed at the wolf bites with a stinging ointment?

    Bad dialogue: ?...a hole in the ground won?t fret me none...?

    Le Mot injuste: ?...even Osha, hard as old iron...? I doubt old iron is harder than new.

    As You Know, Captain: the whole chapter

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: the phrase ?a man grown? always seems to be in Brandon II chapter. I know not why. A seven year old is not a man grown anywhere but Martinland.

    The Department of Silly Names: The adjective ?Myrish? makes me laugh. Reminds me of Honest Ed Mirvish.

    What we learn: The kids are psychic. Or maybe they aren?t.

    Not thinking it out: If both kids have the same dream...doesn?t that mean they are?

    What I liked: Rickon, who actually behaves like a four-year-old.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Obviously this series is not free of dwarves. I was hoping we wouldn?t get elves. Alas, no such luck.

    Criminal Record: 3 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 2 battle melees,

    POVs to date: 8

    Bran's character arc to date: watches execution of poor working-class slob/has career as a high-level voyeur truncated/gets flying lessons from mutated wildfowl/is bored by a superannuated peasant/watches execution of working class outlaws who just threatened his boyhood/Is carted around by a dim-wit semi-giant/Talks to his father?s ghost/

    Rating: 1/5
     
  17. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    What are you talking about? There are no elves in this series.
     
  18. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    aka the Children of the Forest
     
  19. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

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    Very, very not Elves then
     
  20. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

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    The Children of the Forest have more in common with Native Americans than they do elves.
     
  21. Merlin_Ambrosius69

    Merlin_Ambrosius69 Jedi Master star 5

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    Nevermind appears to enjoy lumping things into categories that he can then summarily dismiss as being derivative. Obviously there are no "dwarves" in ASOIAF; there are dwarfs, IE "little people", persons with short stature resulting from a medical condition, just as there in the real world. But there are no gem-mining, cavern-excavating, mythical Northern European beings who dwell underground and wear long beards. For that group you'll have to read Tolkien, watch early Disney or play D&D.

    The Children of the Forest are something like elves insofar as they live in the woods and are symbolic of a long-dead ancestral group who once inhabited the region. That conception cleaves fairly closely to the British legendary Fay/Fair Folk/Fairies, which in Scandinavian myth are called alfar, and which today we call elves. But insofar as Martin's creations are animal-like spirit-beings who live underground, the Children are not at all like the elves of any fantasy series ever written.

    It seems NM prefers, yet again, to ignore the differences and focus on what he perceives to be similarities, so he can reject these as insufferable/derivative/stupid/etc.
     
  22. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Chapter Sixty-Four: Sansa

    Summary: Sansa is depressed. Joffrey is Joffrey.

    Some Thoughts: I dread Catelyn, Sansa and Arya chapters, in about that order.

    For ye Fanboys: The staked heads.

    Truer Words Were Never Spoken Dept: ?You are no true knight, Ser Meryn?

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: Caligula; Nero, Edward, Prince of Wales (the son of Henry VI)

    Fantasy Tropes: Break the Cutie , The Caligula and Distressed Damsel

    The Awesome Scene Syndrome Dept: Joffrey shows Sansa her father?s severed head, just because he?s made that way.

    Improbability Dept.: I still think the scenes where Joffrey exercises power are completely unbelievable. Even a nitwit like Cersei must see that she has to get him in hand, or completely lose the battle for hearts and minds. I note that women are executed, including religious ones, which certainly is not standard in knightly societies.

    Is this a Fantasy Novel or Project Runway? Minute descriptions of apparel, including minor characters like Ser Meryn and Lord Slynt.

    What we learn: Clegane has a crush on Sansa.

    Not thinking it out: Cersei worries about Sansa?s stupidity in the gene pool when her own children are the product of twincest? Especially as Joffrey?s a raving lunatic and Marcella and Tommen seem fairly dim.

    What I liked: Sansa imagining herself as a heroine of song but not having the courage to kill herself, or Joffrey.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Nine pages to establish very little.

    Criminal Record:3 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 2 battle melees,

    POVs to date: 8

    Sansa?s character arc to date: Dimwittedly watches fiancee humiliated/Stupidly watches tourney while villains expose their innermost thoughts/Idiotically protests the prospective breaking of her engagement to an inbred psychotic/Moronically betrays her entire gene pool/Dazedly pleads for Dad after betraying him completely/Foolishly tells her flaming nutbar fiancee that her brother will give her his head/

    Rating: 1/5


     
  23. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Myrcella's actually quite intelligent and Tommen's what, eight? They are barely characters in this book, dunno how you can form the opinion they are dim. Tommen is mostly concerned with his cats and not eating his vegetables, because, you know, he's eight.
     
  24. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

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    Tommen is also down the line in respects to being able to inherit the throne should something unexpected happen to Joffrey and as a result is largely ignored by Cersei.
     
  25. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sounds about right. I'd stick Dany somewhere in that list once her chapters devolve into nothing but disturbing sex shenanigans.